Chael Sonnen and his TRT

[Guest]

Chael meet with NSAC to get his TRT exemption for the Silva fight today and it was granted. Here are some interesting things found out and it is why i dont like the the commissions are going down.

 

A little refresher. Most PE's will cause your body to stop producing Testosterone. So when you are off of the PE's your body's production will be low. But doctors and run tests and actually see WHY you are low. If it is because Steroid abuse they can refuse to allow you to compete. The problem with Sonnen is he was prescribed Testosterone in 2008 (and admits to taking it ever since) and was misdiagnosed due to poorly monitored LH and FSH level. So the commission cant determain what the reason for Sonnen's Testosterone deficiency is. It very well could be from Steroid use. But since he was given a prescription for Testorstone in 2008 he believe he can no longer be checked.

 

So since Chael now needs TRT and the commission cant prove the need is self inflected(steroids) they granted him a TUE (therapeutic use exemption). Chael claimed under Oath that he never used steroids.

 

Sonnen's TUE grant does not allow him to test outside the allowable levels of testosterone in his system during any pre- or post-fight drug tests. He must also remain below the NSAC's allowed 6-to-1 testosterone-to-epitestosterone ratio. However, the TUE does allow Sonnen to have synthetic testosterone in is system during those tests.

 

Here is the problem with this. Even if you forget they cant assure Sonnen's deficiency isnt from Steroids. They are still giving a Performance enhancer to a competing athlete without any measures to assure it isnt being used a perfornce enhancer. A fighters levels before during and after a fight is meaningless. It has almost no effect. Having elevated levels through your training camp is what makes you bigger, faster, stronger, and train longer and harder. That is where the benefits come from and cheaters can cheat and still pass prefight tests.

 

During the hearing, NSAC officials also expressed concern that some of his medical records showed abnormally low testosterone levels while he was supposed to be receiving treatments. Sonnen chalked that up to missed tests while traveling for PR events and his inability to travel with the testosterone, which he said is stored at room temperature in a syringe between doses.

 

The Testosterone Chael takes last for 3 weeks. I doubt he would be away from his medicine that long. IMO he doesnt need TRT and doesnt take Testosterone like it is prescribed for him. I believe the "abnormally low" results was due to being between "cycles" of other steroids. Between cycles your body can recover and get back to its normal testosterone production. Which is what Sonnen would want if he didnt really have hypogonadism. When you take steroids as a fighter you cant go into a fight with them in your system or you will get caught. When you go off of them you often show low test levels which is a red flag. Fighters are getting a TUE for TRT to mask PE use. IMO anyone granted this Exemption should be randomly tested very often at their own expense. I would even argue that if you are not healthy enough to compete with this medicine then maybe you are not healthy enough to compete at all. Whats next? Allowing amputee's to fight with Steel fists and legs? If you can fight as you are then you shouldnt be fighting. Allowing Duffe, Hendo, Marquardt, King Mo, and Chael among others to use an illness to put others at a possible disadvantage should not be allowed.

[Guest]

You know what though? This issue goes WAYYYYY beyond MMA. You look at sport today, these are not the same athletes from yesteryear. They are bigger stronger and faster, and a lot of that has to do with "supplements" and other "enhancements" they take to become that way. And sports fans love it, the stats are better, the games are better, our favorites play longer, but we don't want to KNOW that they cheated. Oh no, then we would hate them, as long as they don't get caught.

 

Imagine MMA going back to the days without supplements? I would bet most fighters wouldn't make it out of training camp without these supplements and pills. Very few fighters are almost completely natural, and we see those fighters breakdown and retire sooner than others. Because the human body isn't designed to do what they make it do in training camps....Everyone is looking for an edge, many just hope what they're taking remains "legal".

 

To me TRT is cheating if you abused your body to the point where 20 - 40 year olds need to replace testosterone thats your own problem and should find another way to make a living.

[Guest]

You know what though? This issue goes WAYYYYY beyond MMA. You look at sport today, these are not the same athletes from yesteryear. They are bigger stronger and faster, and a lot of that has to do with "supplements" and other "enhancements" they take to become that way. And sports fans love it, the stats are better, the games are better, our favorites play longer, but we don't want to KNOW that they cheated. Oh no, then we would hate them, as long as they don't get caught.

 

Imagine MMA going back to the days without supplements? I would bet most fighters wouldn't make it out of training camp without these supplements and pills. Very few fighters are almost completely natural, and we see those fighters breakdown and retire sooner than others. Because the human body isn't designed to do what they make it do in training camps....Everyone is looking for an edge, many just hope what they're taking remains "legal".

 

To me TRT is cheating if you abused your body to the point where 20 - 40 year olds need to replace testosterone thats your own problem and should find another way to make a living.

 

 

 

I used to be a huge steroid hater. I was a big gym rat who hated seeing all the roiders in the gym cheat their way into being stronger than i was through just lifting. But now days after lots of health problems and never taking any drug at all and seeing all the "cheaters" in sports own every record while being healthier than ever i started to look into the issues more. As i learned more about the "use" not abuse of steroids you realize all the negative opinions on steroids are scare tactics and most just uninformed general public. There is almost little to no side effects from proper use of most of these drugs. I dont believe these should be illegal by law. They are no dangerous than anything else people use on daily basis. Everyone claims we have an obesity epedimic and maybe steoids holds the answer to some of these problems. But they cant be properly studied because they are illegal.

 

So my stance has changed a lot in the last few years. But i still think you have to keep them out of sports. Most of MMA history has had fighters use them and not abuse them. The amount to be successful in sports wasnt the same amount a body builder uses and i felt that difference was safe. But in recent years there have been Roiders wo have pushed that envelope where they are getting dangerously close to abusing Steroids to unhealthy level like Body Builders. Overeem for example. Before anyone who used roids would rise to the top. You didnt need to abuse them. Now that everyone is on them who ever uses the most rises to the top. If allowed to use everyone would be taking more and more trying to get that edge over the compeittion. That edge is why they started taking roids to begin with and i dont think that mentality would change just because they were allowed to take them. I think people would start dropping like flies.

 

It is a real complicated subject. I do feel we may reach a time where it is impossible to police people due to all the loop holes and society just takes a "To hell with it, go ahead and kill yourself" approach. I think we havent seen the worst of it yet. The kids of today have witness steroids take every sport record in almost every sport in a 10-15 year period. All those players were n top of the world and no visual health effect. Only get in better shape, rich and famous. How can you convience those kids Steroids are bad for them? I dont believe the fake scare tactics will work now that people have positive results to argue them with.

[Guest]

 

You have a lot of intelligent and correct information. But, your conclusion is pure speculation. I believe a man gets the benefit of the doubt unless you can prove otherwise, or he has been popped in the past. I would understand if you were talking about Nate Marquart's TRT use and subsequent suspension, because he has been caught using steroids. But Chael has not. Now while everything you say could very well possibly be true, the key word is possibly. I look at it similarly to innocent until proven guilty.

 

Now I do agree with you about one thing (I'm assuming you feel the same). The 6:1 or 10:1 ratios they allow shouldn't be that high. They should only be able to go as high as the high end of an average man. And for the record, I'm not saying any of this with hostility or condescension.

[Guest]

6:1 or 10:1 doesn't mean the ratio of testostorone is 6/10 times higher than the average man. It just means they have more test than usual.

[Guest]

You have a lot of intelligent and correct information. But, your conclusion is pure speculation. I believe a man gets the benefit of the doubt unless you can prove otherwise, or he has been popped in the past. I would understand if you were talking about Nate Marquart's TRT use and subsequent suspension, because he has been caught using steroids. But Chael has not. Now while everything you say could very well possibly be true, the key word is possibly. I look at it similarly to innocent until proven guilty.

 

Now I do agree with you about one thing (I'm assuming you feel the same). The 6:1 or 10:1 ratios they allow shouldn't be that high. They should only be able to go as high as the high end of an average man. And for the record, I'm not saying any of this with hostility or condescension.

 

 

I think the reason why they use those level is that some peoeple after hard training can read out at a high level. But i think it is rare and i think Cali and Nevada should use the same number. Why one uses 4:1 and the other 6:1 i dont know. I think 4:1 is reasonable. I dont thik that matters so much because anyone who messed up their cycle or poorly planned their cheating is likely going to be way over as most who have been caught have been. But i see your point that a Chael or other TRT user has wiggle room to get high levels than th normal person. Even if they could get 2:1 they would have an advantage over someone with 1:1. Never though about that but not sure what they can do about it and how many people are naturally above that level.

 

I dotn what to accuse Chael. I am a huge fan of his and i dont really feel he is cheating anyone because i believe everyone is using. also dont think this discredits anything he has or will do. Just showing how crappy the system is because there is lots of things that made him look bad in the hearring. His doctor never established why he had low T which is very strange. This reeks of a pro athlete finding a doctor who will give them anything with no questions asked. The NSAC doctor said he believe Chael doesnt have Primary hypogonadism (Testicle problems) but he believes he has Secondary hypogonadism which is could be side effects of other illness' or drugs. Problem is if he really had problems from Thyroid or something else causing it im sure they would be trying to find the problem and he would be having health issues. I think there is enough to suggest there was no other issue. He just wanted the testosterone.

 

I know i am speculating on a lot of this but i think there is enough out there to take a very educated guess. What i really dont have any idea about is how exactly and what else are they doing. The guy over the Anti Doping Agency said athletes with a legit need for TRT is beyond rare and he has only heard of 1 confirmed case. MMA alone has over a half dozen known cases. So i dont these guys have natural needs. The question is does Chael use this and take elevated levels whle training for a fight and taper off as the fight comes. Or is this a mask? Testosterone is one of the least effective of all the steroids out there. I believe if you take something for 3 weeks it takes 3 weeks to get back to normal. If you have a excuse to not have normal levels you could use longer cycles or larger doses and time it to fight right as it leaves your system rather than wait for 6 week plus for your levels to come back they can use the trt. How exactly the fighters schedule their drugs and cycles i dont know. But from reading those who are using i know they are way ahead of the game and have everything down to a science. Also kind of ironic almost all of these cases are fighters who are having a lot of success. Is it not possible to have a gate keeper on TRT or would it make them a contender? lol

[Guest]

6:1 or 10:1 doesn't mean the ratio of testostorone is 6/10 times higher than the average man. It just means they have more test than usual.

 

 

one number is Testosterone and the other number is Epitestosterone. You can actually test above the legal limit and not have Testosterone very high at all. This is what Overeem was claiming. Most people have 1:1. Lets say 200 ng of T and E. Overeem claimed he didnt have high test say 600/200 (3:1). He said his Epitestosterone was low 200/50 (4:1). Until you know their act levels you don know which is which. But either case something has to be up because thats not normal either. So a high ratio doesnt always mean high testosterone but most of the time that is the case. From what i remember you Epitest numbers dont chance for the most part. So when you take steroids or testosterone the T will go up and the E will stay the same. So often time if that is the case and a fighter reads out as 14:1 he would actually be 14 times higher than most normal males. Of course not all males are 1:1 but most are.

[Guest]

one number is Testosterone and the other number is Epitestosterone. You can actually test above the legal limit and not have Testosterone very high at all. This is what Overeem was claiming. Most people have 1:1. Lets say 200 ng of T and E. Overeem claimed he didnt have high test say 600/200 (3:1). He said his Epitestosterone was low 200/50 (4:1). Until you know their act levels you don know which is which. But either case something has to be up because thats not normal either. So a high ratio doesnt always mean high testosterone but most of the time that is the case. From what i remember you Epitest numbers dont chance for the most part. So when you take steroids or testosterone the T will go up and the E will stay the same. So often time if that is the case and a fighter reads out as 14:1 he would actually be 14 times higher than most normal males. Of course not all males are 1:1 but most are.

 

Thanks for clearing that up. What does E do, exactly?

[Guest]

With the average man the testosterone to epitestosterone level is 1 to 1. So if you have 6 to 1 it does mean that you deviate from the average by a ratio of 6. Keep in mind that there are people with a T/E ratio of under 1. Some people might naturally have very high T/E ratios as well.

 

You have a lot of intelligent and correct information. But, your conclusion is pure speculation. I believe a man gets the benefit of the doubt unless you can prove otherwise, or he has been popped in the past. I would understand if you were talking about Nate Marquart's TRT use and subsequent suspension, because he has been caught using steroids.

Chael Sonnen has been caught in the past. Actually in the exact same way that Marquardt was caught. Both had a too high testosterone level. Which proved that both of them abused TRT (which is pretty much legalized cheating in it's own). So your comments are off.

 

 

"Epitestosterone is believed to contribute to events as to the control of growth of prostate or body hair distribution." I couldn't find much else on it.

[Guest]

 

 

Chael Sonnen has been caught in the past. Actually in the exact same way that Marquardt was caught. Both had a too high testosterone level. Which proved that both of them abused TRT (which is pretty much legalized cheating in it's own). So your comments are off.

 

 

"Epitestosterone is believed to contribute to events as to the control of growth of prostate or body hair distribution." I couldn't find much else on it.

Let me clarify then. Brain was making a point that his approval to use TRT, based on a low testosterone ratio, was because he likely used steroids or some other PEDs in the past. My response was that he was only speculating that Chael had used steroids or PED's, because he hasn't been caught. I know he has been caught with a high testosterone ratio. But that wasn't what we were talking about. We were talking about WHY he might have a low ratio and be approved for TRT. I used Marquart as an example because he is a guy that has been caught with a high testosterone ratio, AND has been popped for PED's.

[jacky67]

i don't think sonnen is off cycle, i believe his body can't produce testosterone anymore due to drugs abuse i think he's on for the rest of his life.

 

thay use 4:1 because 95% of the population is less than 4:1,

 

99% of the population is less than 6:1

 

that's how they determine the ratio.

 

one thing if ur an asian u can take steroids and may still be under 4:1.

[Guest]

Sonnen is a piece of shit

 

Yeah, let's make sure he gets his testosterone but keep him away from weed, his training and fight skills will be far too enhanced..

[Guest]

Let me clarify then. Brain was making a point that his approval to use TRT, based on a low testosterone ratio, was because he likely used steroids or some other PEDs in the past. My response was that he was only speculating that Chael had used steroids or PED's, because he hasn't been caught. I know he has been caught with a high testosterone ratio. But that wasn't what we were talking about. We were talking about WHY he might have a low ratio and be approved for TRT. I used Marquart as an example because he is a guy that has been caught with a high testosterone ratio, AND has been popped for PED's.

Chael Sonnen's T/E ratio was 16.9 to 1 and wasn't approved for TRT. So if it wasn't TRT then there are only so many other things that could've caused it... And even if he was on TRT he would've been "replacing" what wasn't there before and shouldn't have been there to begin with.

[Guest]

Calls champ a fraud.

Loses to champ.

Pleads guilty to fraud.

Gets caught doping.

Wears fake belt.

Calls champ a fraud.

 

I wonder what kind of man his father was. He always said that he wanted his father to be proud of him. If my son did what Sonnen does he could wear a real UFC belt and I'd still be ashamed of him.

[Eveas]

Calls champ a fraud.

Loses to champ.

Pleads guilty to fraud.

Gets caught doping.

Wears fake belt.

Calls champ a fraud.

 

I wonder what kind of man his father was. He always said that he wanted his father to be proud of him. If my son did what Sonnen does he could wear a real UFC belt and I'd ashamed of him.

It is not often I agree with you, but this is one of those times. +1

[Guest]

Calls champ a fraud.

Loses to champ.

Pleads guilty to fraud.

Gets caught doping.

Wears fake belt.

Calls champ a fraud.

 

I wonder what kind of man his father was. He always said that he wanted his father to be proud of him. If my son did what Sonnen does he could wear a real UFC belt and I'd still be ashamed of him.

 

 

I dont think what he did was all that bad. Seems to me it falls in line with the crap you see every day. Like Drunk driving so many have done it so few care until someone gets killed. what Chael did is done all the time at one level or another. I dont know exactly all the details of his fruad case but almost everyone is guilty of lying or exaggerating on insurance claim or even taxes. Seems like the same thign to me. They got the mortgage company to pay 69,000 for repairs. Doesnt the home owners have to pay that back? I assume it was tacked on to their borrowed amount. The repair company(Chaels mom) give 65,000 to the home owners so they profited 4,000. So the home owners scamed their way to get a higher load out of their home maybe. But as we saw with the housing market they was giving money away for shit houses anyway. Either way this isnt something i think Chael shouldnt be forgiven for. He was given his penality and is squared up with the law. In other ways he paid debt to society. The other things is just blind hating. He is joking around trying to sell a fight and be entertaining. Hardly something his father should be ashamed of.

 

I though you had more sense than that Steeve. Chael says things he obviously doesnt believe and some people fall for it hook and sinker and are oblivious to his sarcasm.

[Guest]

Chael Sonnen's T/E ratio was 16.9 to 1 and wasn't approved for TRT. So if it wasn't TRT then there are only so many other things that could've caused it... And even if he was on TRT he would've been "replacing" what wasn't there before and shouldn't have been there to begin with.

He was approved for TRT by his doctor. He did not go through the proper channels to notify the commission that he was using TRT. He absolutely admitted to TRT. And if I remember correctly, which I usually don't, his ratio was 6:1. Point being, his testosterone level was high from TRT. My only point in this whole thread is that to say he was using a different kind of PED, other than TRT, is just speculation. Because he has never been caught, or admitted to using anything. He admitted right away that he was using TRT because he thought he was OK because his doctor approved it and he "told" the commission. He got in trouble because he hadn't gone through the proper channels/documentation for the Athletic Commission of California. The end. Leave it alone. I am only saying that to say he used steroids or a different kind of PED is only speculation. He may have. But we don't know that. So we shouldn't say he did.

[Guest]

He was approved for TRT by his doctor. He did not go through the proper channels to notify the commission that he was using TRT. He absolutely admitted to TRT. And if I remember correctly, which I usually don't, his ratio was 6:1. Point being, his testosterone level was high from TRT. My only point in this whole thread is that to say he was using a different kind of PED, other than TRT, is just speculation. Because he has never been caught, or admitted to using anything. He admitted right away that he was using TRT because he thought he was OK because his doctor approved it and he "told" the commission. He got in trouble because he hadn't gone through the proper channels/documentation for the Athletic Commission of California. The end. Leave it alone. I am only saying that to say he used steroids or a different kind of PED is only speculation. He may have. But we don't know that. So we shouldn't say he did.

 

 

I agree with you there is no real "proof". But there never is. Even Overeem whose situation is even crazier than Chaels doesnt prove he used steroids. Because he got his doctor to lie about TRT after the fact. The only commission Overeem ever passed was in Texas. During his hearing it comes out that Overeems doctor in on the TSAC board. Of course he admits to giving Reem testosterone because Reem needed a excuse. Of course the doctor looked like a fool when questioned by NSAC and Reem doesnt have a deficiency. But claimed he got test for an injury of course he never disclosed this at the time(mapped out his excuse weeks after the test). He also tried to escape the test. All of this makes him look guilty as sin. But even all this isnt technically proof. But we all know his doctor excuse is bull crap. Same with Chael. To many things happen that wasnt supposed to happen and all of them just happen to cover up steroid use. To many things he had no answer for. For example he was tested and his level were very low. They asked why it was low and he claimed he was out of town and had no medication. He takes these shots every two weeks. How could he have not had meds for well over 2 weeks to drop low? How could a fighters who has to be health go around for weeks with all the effects of low test? It has all the makings of a star fighter who found a doctor who will do anything for them just as Overeem found. When Chael got TRT the dr didnt document anything about his "illness". Likely because there wasnt one.

[Guest]

For the record i dont think he should be persecuted. But i dont think we should claim him innocent either. everyne imo is taking PE's its just to what extent. Sometake more than others some take different drugs. But everyone is on someone outside of a very few at the UFC level. So Chael really isnt cheating anyone. That said, when people hear of TRT and all this stuff they should realize that many of the cases are because people were taking steroids or looking to use it for some other advantage. I dont think it discredits his accomplisments but he should be able to run around claiming he is clean either and fans should think he is.