Forcing fighters to trade with you

[Guest]

It seems the community agress high accuracy + high counter is a pretty sure, lame way to win. No TKO, No Fun.

It should be possible to go in and throw bombs, create some chaos, and move away with a win. If striking is equal or higher, it should be possible.

Wanderlei Silva berseker style (although a tad more sophisticated). So for all you aggressive fighters out there, here is game-fix that could make

your style work against the hard to hit super-counterer.

 

Things to implement:

 

I) Forced trading of punches

 

Sometimes in striking battles, there is a trade of punches. When this trade happens, the person with more power (aka damage) benefits.

Even if he lands 1 and the other person 2. Some fighters are experts in forcing these "trades". Think Chris Leben. Think Alistair Overeem.

 

First, there are three aspects to this: the ability to force trades, the ability to avoid them, and the success

of the trade itself.

 

For forcing trades Confidence + Experience + (and as the rounds move on) Intelligence should be the dominating hidden character

traits that enables the cornering someone, and forcing them to make a move. Speed should be the dominating physical trait (cutting of ring).

 

For avoiding forced striking trades, Experience + Intelligence (small but growing effect) should be the main hidden character traits.

Look at Kenny Florian, he has both and is an expert at this. He is also lanky and lacks power. When a striking trade has been forced upon a

fighter, and that fighter has low confidence/morale/energy/heart it should sometimes lead to panic reactions of ineffective moves that consume

lots of energy. The person who forces the trade should himself be immune to panic reactions.

 

And now the success of the trade itself. Panic reactions as described above obviously affect the success once it chips in.

But if it doesn't, like most of the time. Heart should be the strongest hidden character attribute for the success of the

trade itself. Short fighters should be at advantage at this short-distance standup fighting as well.

 

 

Addon: A smooth way to implement this is to add the stage "overwhelmed" before panic reaction.

At this stage, the fighter can regain control or loose control. Once overwhlemed, the fighter is pacified

for a short moment regaining his senses.

 

Overwhelmed can mean two things. Either the fighter is phsycically overwhelmed, body shots, leg kicks, low

energy OR the fighter is mentally overwhelmed due to weak character. A fighter can be physically OK

but low confidence/heart ==>> and become mentally overwhelmed. He can also be superconfident but his BODY simply

can't take the punishment at the current rate and needs to take a breather.

 

 

 

Cheers!!

[Guest]

It seems the community agress high accuracy + high counter is a pretty sure, lame way to win. No TKO, No Fun.

It should be possible to go in and throw bombs, create some chaos, and move away with a win. If striking is equal or higher, it should be possible.

Wanderlei Silva berseker style (although a tad more sophisticated). So for all you aggressive fighters out there, here is game-fix that could make

your style work against the hard to hit super-counterer.

 

Things to implement:

 

I) Forced trading of punches

 

Sometimes in striking battles, there is a trade of punches. When this trade happens, the person with more power (aka damage) benefits.

Even if he lands 1 and the other person 2. Some fighters are experts in forcing these "trades". Think Chris Leben. Think Alistair Overeem.

 

First, there are three aspects to this: the ability to force trades, the ability to avoid them, and the success of the trade itself.

 

For forcing trades Confidence + Experience + (and as the rounds move on) Intelligence should be the dominating hidden character traits that enables the

cornering someone, and forcing them to make a move. Speed should be the dominating physical trait (cutting of ring).

 

For avoiding forced striking trades, Intelligence (at first small but growing effect) + Experience should be the main hidden character traits.

When a striking trade has been forced upon a fighter, and that fighter has low confidence/morale/energy/heart it should sometimes lead to panic reactions of

ineffective moves that consume lots of energy. The person who forces the trade should himself be immune to panic reactions.

 

And now the success of the trade itself. Panic reactions as described above obviously affect the success once it chips in.

But if it doesn't, like most of the time. Heart should be the strongest hidden character attribute for the success of the trade itself.

Short fighters should be at advantage at this short-distance standup fighting as well.

 

Cheers!!

+1!!

[Guest]

+1!!

 

Glad you like it

[Guest]

Definately a +1 but that seems like it'd be a bitch to code and possibly unfeasible if it requires a whole game engine re-work

[Guest]

Definately a +1 but that seems like it'd be a bitch to code and possibly unfeasible if it requires a whole game engine re-work

 

I do agree. Although creativity lives a life of its own =)

[jacky67]

What about the ability should be about your MT and Boxing ?

 

 

Because basically in the game when you have better MT/BOX you can punch your opponents giving him combo and depending on his ability he will either counter it either block a few dammage either avoid it .

 

Anyone will never force Buakaw to trade punch and it's nothing about heart or intelligence , just pure skills .

 

I still don't get it maybe you mean feints ?But you can't force someone to trade with you if he don't want .

[Guest]

I wouldn't mind this but at high skill levels it should be difficult/rare to get into Overwhelmed/Panicked status since in all likelihood your defensive skills are going to on par with your opponent's offensive skills.

 

The stats for this should be the 2 Primaries (BX/MT) and not the Experience/Confidence hiddens as you suggest... in my opinion those would be secondary or tertiary factors along with their Defensive Secondaries. (I think this was what Jacky was saying as well)

 

After all, someone who is Sens/Sens or even Ex/Ex in BX/MT with the Defensive secondaries to match is not going to be particularly concerned about their opponent swinging away like a drunken monkey. In fact, that is generally a defensive fighter's game plan, turtle up, wait for your opponent to miss big/gas out, and then counter their dicks into the dirt.

 

I agree that something needs tweaking but the 100% counter phenomenon is largely encountered with fighters already near the skill pinnacle with large amounts of experience to boot. I don't think this would/should fix that problem, unless aggro striking starts taking up a lot more energy than it does. Without that we would simply reverse the problem to aggro being overpowered.

 

It should be a gamble to try and overwhelm your opponent with strikes immediately. Either you get it and likely get the KO or you gas out and end up eating counters for the whole match.

[markyosullivan]

+1

 

Fighters who are overly aggressive can also be sometimes caught more easily or taken down easier.

[Guest]

Well ya. I thought it so obvious that Boxing/MT would be the determining factors among the primaries that I didn't mention it. Notice I wrote experience + intelligence should be

the determinating hidden character traits.

 

This is what happens. Fighter X moves forward, fighter X cuts of ring. Y fighter may

 

a] stand and trade

b] use good footwork to get away

c] simply stand there with high guard

d] go for clinch

e] go for takedown

 

At times fighter Y hasn't been using optimal footwork and finds himself with his back against the cage. He may now move, but since he is already cornered, it's probably smart to stay in the pocket

and trade. Moving AWAY at this point allows for the other fighter to throw 2-3 free strikes (that may or may not land).

 

Sens/Sens or even Ex/Ex in BX/MT with the Defensive secondaries to match is not going to be particularly concerned about their opponent swinging away like a drunken monkey. Thats excactly right.

Since they are so good at executing the trade itself.

 

Forced trading of punches can be a kind of controlled agression. Alistair Overeem corners people, stand close, and forces them to open up. Then he counters them

 

 

Buakaw has perfect mental game, perfect physicals and amazing MT skills. He probably wouldn't be cornered in the game either

[ajperok]

What about the ability should be about your MT and Boxing ?

 

 

Because basically in the game when you have better MT/BOX you can punch your opponents giving him combo and depending on his ability he will either counter it either block a few dammage either avoid it .

 

Anyone will never force Buakaw to trade punch and it's nothing about heart or intelligence , just pure skills .

 

I still don't get it maybe you mean feints ?But you can't force someone to trade with you if he don't want .

 

 

We talked about this in the other thread.

 

If your hitting like a total pussy, and you aren't doing any damage, a brawler will sometimes take 2 or 3 punches to just land one. This should be incorporated- it's totally accurate and indicative of real life MMA.

 

this

148/150 punches vs 2/100 punches

- needs to go.

[Guest]

We talked about this in the other thread.

 

If your hitting like a total pussy, and you aren't doing any damage, a brawler will sometimes take 2 or 3 punches to just land one. This should be incorporated- it's totally accurate and indicative of real life MMA.

 

this

148/150 punches vs 2/100 punches

- needs to go.

 

Yes that thread inspired me to start this one. What happens in this: at first smart fighters are always careful.

However, when becomes apparent the other fighter CANNOT hurt you with their punches, you loose respect for them.

 

Think Dan Henderson vs Michael Bisping. Dan Henderson knew Bisping COULD not knock him out, and possibly not even hurt him.

Take one give one. Take two give one. Take three give one. The other fighter is playing a dangerous game.

[Erik]

Maybe counters just need to be able to miss (at a lesser rate than initiating strikes, but still be able to miss).

 

 

Unrelated: but if counters could miss, I think it'd be reasonable to allow leg/body strikes to be countered even if they succeed.

[Guest]

Maybe counters just need to be able to miss (at a lesser rate than initiating strikes, but still be able to miss).

 

 

Unrelated: but if counters could miss, I think it'd be reasonable to allow leg/body strikes to be countered even if they succeed.

 

a lot of high level MT guys dont bother dodging a lot of attacks. Donald Cerrone is a good example of "take the punch/kick" but counter harder kind of mentality. Anthony Pettis did that a lot against Ben Henderson too. In MT some guys just stand there and take it (although having a high guard blocking high kicks and most head punches so on) and just throw hard shit back.

 

Addon: I think counters should miss a lot of the time. There are aggressive hard to hit fighters. Counterpunching is obviously generally safer. But when agression is unpredictable - and come in short bursts, it is really hard to counter.

 

/Kamp

[Guest]

a lot of high level MT guys dont bother dodging a lot of attacks. Donald Cerrone is a good example of "take the punch/kick" but counter harder kind of mentality. Anthony Pettis did that a lot against Ben Henderson too. In MT some guys just stand there and take it (although having a high guard blocking high kicks and most head punches so on) and just throw hard shit back.

 

Addon: I think counters should miss a lot of the time. There are aggressive hard to hit fighters. Counterpunching is obviously generally safer. But when agression is unpredictable - and come in short bursts, it is really hard to counter.

 

/Kamp

 

 

Counters do miss. When you are on 100% counter now you are trying to counter every single miss. You just don't see a message when it doesn't hit. Every miss without a counter is essentially a missed counter. The thing is they currently don't seem to take up energy the way a missed aggro punch does. This is why counter with high TD is more effective than aggro high TD. "Missed" counter TD's don't gas you.

[Erik]

Counters do miss. When you are on 100% counter now you are trying to counter every single miss. You just don't see a message when it doesn't hit. Every miss without a counter is essentially a missed counter. The thing is they currently don't seem to take up energy the way a missed aggro punch does. This is why counter with high TD is more effective than aggro high TD. "Missed" counter TD's don't gas you.

 

I've always thought this was more missing the opportunity to counter (due to being out of range or what have you) rather than attempting to counter and missing.

[Guest]

I've always thought this was more missing the opportunity to counter (due to being out of range or what have you) rather than attempting to counter and missing.

 

 

You do see guys punishing the opponent for trying to counter them. Essentially countering a counterer. Another thing is, feint / counterreacton / punishment (from agressive guy feinting)

[LanceTempleton]

Maybe a counter shouldnt end an exchange every time? Maybe make it easier to "walk through a punch"

 

The way it stands now is someone swing and misses, the other guy counters and you start over.

 

maybe if someone comes in throwing a combo and you counter him with a little 90% accurate jab he should continue to throw his combo?

 

I know this is very basic, but possibly something to work off of?

[DeadlyDirk]

Okay well these two were hardly counter fighters but Condit vs Hardy was a perfect example of one of them saying, "I don't care if you're trying to hit me or even if you hit me, I'm still going to be throwing at you regardless......... Oh look you're on the floor."

 

Plus I know how much you all like to see Hardy getting knocked out anyway

 

http://cdn2.sbnation.com/fan_shot_images/152323/y2icd.gif

[ajperok]

Counters do miss. When you are on 100% counter now you are trying to counter every single miss. You just don't see a message when it doesn't hit. Every miss without a counter is essentially a missed counter. The thing is they currently don't seem to take up energy the way a missed aggro punch does. This is why counter with high TD is more effective than aggro high TD. "Missed" counter TD's don't gas you.

 

If this were the case.... then my guy set at 50% counter would surely be able to occasionally counter the "missed counter" from the guy set at 100% counter... yt we never see it?

Guy 1 misses with a low kick

Guy 2 misses with a counter hook

Guy 1 counters with a devastating head kick.

 

 

The correct points have been brought up that need to eventually be incorporated.

1) Sometimes there are punch exchanges where both guys land punches.

2) If your not doing any damage (whether aggro or counter) your opponents offensive effectiveness should begin to increase, and they should begin to land punches even if they are getting hit in the process.

(maybe this can be some kind of setting? like a boxing vs brawling slider which could control the likelihood of an offensive fighter to begin brawling.)

[Guest]

If this were the case.... then my guy set at 50% counter would surely be able to occasionally counter the "missed counter" from the guy set at 100% counter... yt we never see it?

Guy 1 misses with a low kick

Guy 2 misses with a counter hook

Guy 1 counters with a devastating head kick.

 

 

The correct points have been brought up that need to eventually be incorporated.

1) Sometimes there are punch exchanges where both guys land punches.

2) If your not doing any damage (whether aggro or counter) your opponents offensive effectiveness should begin to increase, and they should begin to land punches even if they are getting hit in the process.

(maybe this can be some kind of setting? like a boxing vs brawling slider which could control the likelihood of an offensive fighter to begin brawling.)

 

The "missed" counters are not allowed to be countered themselves unfortunately.

[Guest]

The "missed" counters are not allowed to be countered themselves unfortunately.

 

Yes, indeed. You even see this

 

I) A initiates with hook

II) B moves out of the way, but looses his balance in order to do so (loosing his balance for a split second)

III) A punishes this with strike

 

Thing is, a fighter can often avoid getting punched, but when punch is thrown very fast or seemingly from nowhere, the other fighter makes an exaggerated body movement in order to accomplish it.

[Guest]

I like the brawler/boxer distinction. Lets characterize what would make a smart/careful boxer.

 

Boxer:

 

a) Good head movement

Good footwork, spends lots of energy on jumping around

c) Never stays in pocket (avoids trading of punches)

d) Short exchanges, like hit&run

e) Prioritizes not getting hit before getting hit

f) Generally clean technique, punches without windup and from hip

 

Brawler:

 

a) Poor head movement (often seen, but not necessary. Has more to do with the fact that poorly skilled boxers resort to brawling. There is not disadvantage of moving head)

 

Bad footwork, stands fairly still, spends little to no energy on moving around

c) Always stays in pocket.

d) Likes long exchanges with many punches.

e) Prioritizes landing punches before avoiding them

f) Generally poor technique, armpunches with windup and looses balance after punch (especially if it misses)

 

Writing all this, it seems the brawling style sucks!!

[Guest]

let's say it's the defender's experience/intelligence vs offender's determination/heart?