minark Posted November 26, 2012 Report Share Posted November 26, 2012 I don't think boxing in mma and boxing the sport are the same,but even if were just talking about boxing as applied to mma, JDS is not Elite. You may not agree with AK's stance but he's right: While I'd give JDS Elite rank in certain areas of boxing, wrestling, etc. His boxing defense is not Elite. Anything over Superb MT is absurd. Like I said he's never even checced a kicc that I can recall. That's the one thing that makes a fight with Overeem intriguing to me. If Frank Mir is landing a high % of kiccs on you, you have some work to do. While I understand that JDS may not be elite in some people's minds, it's purely opinion on who is elite and who is not. What I don't understand is why everyone is saying his striking defense is terrible. You're talking about a guy who has never been knocked out in the UFC and he's never even taken significant damage. If those 2 things don't mean good striking defense, then what does? Techincally, no he doesn't stand there like Bisping, put his arms over his ears and cover up constantly, and he's never needed to. Unlike many others JDS can take a punch. Letting one or two slip by in order to land those huge shots that he lands is not terrible striking defense. Anderson Silva, the man everyone is claiming is elite boxing and muay thai constantly puts his arms down and just bobs and weaves. Does that mean he, a man who takes almost no damage in almost every fight, has terrible striking defense? I don't get it. What I do agree completely with is that I'd love to see him fight Overeem. I think JDS would knock Overeem out but I also think Overeem has a chance to do more damage to JDS than anyone has yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AK47 Posted November 26, 2012 Report Share Posted November 26, 2012 You know what is the difference? Why does guys like JDS cant box at the same skill level in octagon that James in boxing? Because if he would cover up and attack the same why as James in boxing he would also be taken down and submited. all elite in any area know how to adapt to fit their style james was a stubborn fuck but still an elite boxer. JDS might be an elite mma fighter but in the case of mmatycoon style, which plain out is normal boxing,muaythai,wrestling,bjj, JDS is not elite in any of those areas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AK47 Posted November 26, 2012 Report Share Posted November 26, 2012 While I understand that JDS may not be elite in some people's minds, it's purely opinion on who is elite and who is not. What I don't understand is why everyone is saying his striking defense is terrible. You're talking about a guy who has never been knocked out in the UFC and he's never even taken significant damage. If those 2 things don't mean good striking defense, then what does? Techincally, no he doesn't stand there like Bisping, put his arms over his ears and cover up constantly, and he's never needed to. Unlike many others JDS can take a punch. Letting one or two slip by in order to land those huge shots that he lands is not terrible striking defense. Anderson Silva, the man everyone is claiming is elite boxing and muay thai constantly puts his arms down and just bobs and weaves. Does that mean he, a man who takes almost no damage in almost every fight, has terrible striking defense? I don't get it. What I do agree completely with is that I'd love to see him fight Overeem. I think JDS would knock Overeem out but I also think Overeem has a chance to do more damage to JDS than anyone has yet. I don't think Anderson has elite boxing close but not elite. he allows too much punches to be landed based off of cockiness Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minark Posted November 26, 2012 Report Share Posted November 26, 2012 all elite in any area know how to adapt to fit their style james was a stubborn fuck but still an elite boxer. JDS might be an elite mma fighter but in the case of mmatycoon style, which plain out is normal boxing,muaythai,wrestling,bjj, JDS is not elite in any of those areas. Who said MMATycoon classifies them by sport? Whose to say they don't mean MMA Boxing, MMA Muay Thai, MMA Wrestling, and MMA BJJ and Mike didn't feel like putting MMA in front of every stat for stupidity and redundancy? As far as I'm concerned, unless Mike Tycoon tells us that they mean the skill towards that sport and not as in MMA itself, I see no reason to believe that's mmatycoon style. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 26, 2012 Report Share Posted November 26, 2012 all elite in any area know how to adapt to fit their style james was a stubborn fuck but still an elite boxer. JDS might be an elite mma fighter but in the case of mmatycoon style, which plain out is normal boxing,muaythai,wrestling,bjj, JDS is not elite in any of those areas. James adapted it the best Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AK47 Posted November 27, 2012 Report Share Posted November 27, 2012 Who said MMATycoon classifies them by sport? Whose to say they don't mean MMA Boxing, MMA Muay Thai, MMA Wrestling, and MMA BJJ and Mike didn't feel like putting MMA in front of every stat for stupidity and redundancy? As far as I'm concerned, unless Mike Tycoon tells us that they mean the skill towards that sport and not as in MMA itself, I see no reason to believe that's mmatycoon style. it's pretty obv since if u don't have wrestling you will be taken down ect..... they way its set up it's based off the individual skills like muay thai ect.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minark Posted November 27, 2012 Report Share Posted November 27, 2012 it's pretty obv since if u don't have wrestling you will be taken down ect..... they way its set up it's based off the individual skills like muay thai ect.. Yeah, but whose to say it isn't talking about those individual skills in MMA is what I'm saying. Is Anderson Silva the best Muay Thai fighter in the world? No. But is he the best Muay Thai fighter in MMA? Most say yes. This whole thread is a matter of opinion so to say someone is completely wrong is wrong itself. Just because you don't think JDS is elite doesn't mean everyone else agrees. That's the problem with arguing who is elite and who is not. It's a completely opinion based argument where everyone seems to think their opinion is the one that is right. I base Boxing off of punches and striking defense. I personally think from what JDS has shown he's elite punch and at least sensational striking defense. His punching is up there with the best in MMA and as for striking defense, he takes very little damage in all of his fights and has yet to be hurt in the UFC. I see no reason why someone couldn't say JDS is elite in striking defense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 27, 2012 Report Share Posted November 27, 2012 it's pretty obv since if u don't have wrestling you will be taken down ect..... they way its set up it's based off the individual skills like muay thai ect.. Just think about it. Maybe JDS dont use some good technique just because he could get taken down or been kicked but in boxing it would work pretty well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ganja Posted November 27, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 27, 2012 What was James Toney boxing skill in mma? If you ask me it was useless. James Toney is old and far though, lol. You hit the nail on the head. He was a monster in the ring but an Elite boxer in the ring won't be the same in the cage. I dare someone to tell me "Lights Out" was not an elite back in his day! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ganja Posted November 27, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 27, 2012 Yeah, but whose to say it isn't talking about those individual skills in MMA is what I'm saying. Is Anderson Silva the best Muay Thai fighter in the world? No. But is he the best Muay Thai fighter in MMA? Most say yes. This whole thread is a matter of opinion so to say someone is completely wrong is wrong itself. Just because you don't think JDS is elite doesn't mean everyone else agrees. That's the problem with arguing who is elite and who is not. It's a completely opinion based argument where everyone seems to think their opinion is the one that is right. I base Boxing off of punches and striking defense. I personally think from what JDS has shown he's elite punch and at least sensational striking defense. His punching is up there with the best in MMA and as for striking defense, he takes very little damage in all of his fights and has yet to be hurt in the UFC. I see no reason why someone couldn't say JDS is elite in striking defense. Finally someone get's it! It's just a matter of opinion, we'll be here all night if we keep arguing. Let's all be friends and post the stats of our favorite fighters! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AK47 Posted November 27, 2012 Report Share Posted November 27, 2012 Finally someone get's it! It's just a matter of opinion, we'll be here all night if we keep arguing. Let's all be friends and post the stats of our favorite fighters! give me an L and I will agree with all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 27, 2012 Report Share Posted November 27, 2012 I don't think Anderson has elite boxing close but not elite. he allows too much punches to be landed based off of cockiness he lets them land on purpose yes he is cocky but he does it because he knows hes one of the best its like in football christiano ronaldo hes cocky too because he knows hes a good footballer, you cant fault his striking defence with his bobbing and weaving look what he did to griffin pretty much made an embarrassment out of him landing a jab after bobbing and weaving his strikes. whether you like him or not you cant fault his stand up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AK47 Posted November 27, 2012 Report Share Posted November 27, 2012 he lets them land on purpose yes he is cocky but he does it because he knows hes one of the best its like in football christiano ronaldo hes cocky too because he knows hes a good footballer, you cant fault his striking defence with his bobbing and weaving look what he did to griffin pretty much made an embarrassment out of him landing a jab after bobbing and weaving his strikes. whether you like him or not you cant fault his stand up sparkles stay on the same side man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Posted November 27, 2012 Report Share Posted November 27, 2012 MMA boxing and Marquess of Queensbury rules are vastly different; you simply can't do some stuff in MMA that you'd do under regulation boxing rules. A pure boxer isn't actually a very good boxer in MMA because their style doesn't fit, kind of like how Diaz style works in MMA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 27, 2012 Report Share Posted November 27, 2012 sparkles stay on the same side man im just saying its hard to talk about the strikes that hit him when half the time hes stood there hands down waiting for them to hit on purpose, and i'd say silva has a very good chin thats also possibly another reason why he allows it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minark Posted November 27, 2012 Report Share Posted November 27, 2012 So I'll go with the ridiculously debatable fighter who will most likely cause someone to freak out on me in all caps. Anderson Silva Elite-- Boxing Elite++ Muay Thai Remarkable- Wrestling Elite+ BJJ Elite-- Punch Elite+ Kick ?Wonderful Elbow Elite++ Knee Elite++ Clinchwork Elite-- Striking Defense ?Feeble Ground and Pound ?Useless Takedown Offense Exceptional+ Takedown Defense Elite+ Submissions Wonderful-- Defensive Grappling Elite-- Agility Sensational+ Flexibility Sensational-- Speed Sensational-- Strength Sensational+ Conditioning Wonderful+ Balance Elite++ Reflexes if there was one. Lol Obviously this is completely objective and shows how highly I think of Anderson's Silva's skills. So argue it all you want because there is no wrong or right answer to it. Flame on flamers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ganja Posted November 27, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 27, 2012 So I'll go with the ridiculously debatable fighter who will most likely cause someone to freak out on me in all caps. Anderson Silva Elite-- Boxing Elite++ Muay Thai Remarkable- Wrestling Elite+ BJJ Elite-- Punch Elite+ Kick ?Wonderful Elbow Elite++ Knee Elite++ Clinchwork Elite-- Striking Defense ?Feeble Ground and Pound ?Useless Takedown Offense Exceptional+ Takedown Defense Elite+ Submissions Wonderful-- Defensive Grappling Elite-- Agility Sensational+ Flexibility Sensational-- Speed Sensational-- Strength Sensational+ Conditioning Wonderful+ Balance Elite++ Reflexes if there was one. Lol Obviously this is completely objective and shows how highly I think of Anderson's Silva's skills. So argue it all you want because there is no wrong or right answer to it. Flame on flamers! That's a good one! Lol @ useless takedown offense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rambo Posted November 27, 2012 Report Share Posted November 27, 2012 My Opinion if transfering to MMATycoon fighter Anderson Silva Elite++ Boxing Elite++ Muay Thai Remarkable+ Wrestling Elite-- BJJ (black belt, not red) Elite++ Punch Elite++ Kick Wonderful Elbow Elite++ Knee Elite- Clinchwork Elite++ Striking Defense Competent- Ground and Pound Competent- Takedown Offense (he took Stephan Bonnar down) Wonderful+ Takedown Defense Elite+ Submissions Sensational++ Defensive Grappling (much easier to takedown than hurt on the ground, just ask Chael Sonnen) Elite++ Agility Elite+ Flexibility Elite++ Speed Sensational-- Strength Sensational+ Conditioning Wonderful+ Balance You won't get flamed from me, I rate him higher in most catagories lol. Only because I've adapted with the way this game has been working for the last 2-3 years, so I'm not nearly as critical and judge everything by MMATycoon standards and not IRL standards. With the way MMATycoon stats work - it's elite on the MMA level - or the fight engine in this game is totally broken and it always has been since the beginning. Elite Boxing, Muay Thai, Wrestling, & BJJ in this game is not comparable to Ali's Boxing, Payakaroon's Muay Thai, Karelin's wrestling, or Gracie's BJJ. Otherwise elite wrestlers would take down exceptional or lesser wrestlers at will. Elite boxers with Elite punch technique and elite striking defense would land every punch thrown and dodge every single punch thrown at them by somebody with wonderful boxing and virtually take no damage, ever... and Elite BJJ specialist with elite submissions would submit brown belts at will. In MMA - Anderson Silva is an Elite Boxer and Muay Thai fighter. In MMA - Junior Dos Santos is an Elite Boxer. In MMA - Frank Mir is an Elite BJJ artist. In MMA - GSP is an Elite Boxer and Wrestler. In MMA - Jon Jones is an Elite Muay Thai fighter and Elite Wrestler. In MMA - Nick Diaz is an Elite Boxer and BJJ specialist. In MMA - Carlos Condit is an Elite Muay Thai fighter. ...and if not elite in MMA, definitely elite by every MMATycoon standard. Look no further than the game engine and the fight results. Hundreds if not thousands of MMATycoon fighters have elite punches & striking defense, takedowns or takedown defense, and still manage to get denied. Only in MMATycoon do fighters with elite boxing + punches + striking defense get KO'd in 5 seconds: http://www.mmatycoon...php?FTID=432761 Only in MMATycoon do we see fighters with black belts and elite wrestling uncapable of submitting or taking down a fighter with wonderful wrestling + purple belt. The examples are endless. If Mike Tycoon intended for elite boxing+punches+striking defense to mean that you're Muhammed Ali in the boxing catagory or that elite submissions means that you're the next Gracie prodigy - then boy did he ever fuck this game engine up, and it's been broken since the beginning. I like to be more optimistic about it, and consider it elite on an mma level and knowledge of the technique. You train boxing for 5+ years, regardless of how you perform in the cage, you're an elite boxer. There shouldn't be anything left for you to learn about punch technique or striking defense if you train boxing for 5+ years. You train BJJ for 10 years (created fighter at 18 years old, now 28 years old), you better know all there is to know about submissions. Regardless if you can pull them off against inferior fighters or not, you should have the knowledge of an elite submission specialist. If you don't look at this game in that perspective, then it'll give you a headache trying to grasp how Budo Rei vs War Machine can happen when War Machine stats wise, should be the equivalent of the greatest heavyweight kickboxing champion of all-time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 27, 2012 Report Share Posted November 27, 2012 What was James Toney boxing skill in mma? If you ask me it was useless. Especially since I don't think he ever threw a single punch vs Randy... While I understand that JDS may not be elite in some people's minds, it's purely opinion on who is elite and who is not. What I don't understand is why everyone is saying his striking defense is terrible. You're talking about a guy who has never been knocked out in the UFC and he's never even taken significant damage. If those 2 things don't mean good striking defense, then what does? Techincally, no he doesn't stand there like Bisping, put his arms over his ears and cover up constantly, and he's never needed to. Unlike many others JDS can take a punch. Letting one or two slip by in order to land those huge shots that he lands is not terrible striking defense. Anderson Silva, the man everyone is claiming is elite boxing and muay thai constantly puts his arms down and just bobs and weaves. Does that mean he, a man who takes almost no damage in almost every fight, has terrible striking defense? I don't get it. What I do agree completely with is that I'd love to see him fight Overeem. I think JDS would knock Overeem out but I also think Overeem has a chance to do more damage to JDS than anyone has yet. Who are the best boxers JDS have fought in MMA? Shane Carwin? Roy Nelson? An ancient Cro Cop? Yvel? (Cain hardly threw any punches as far as I can remember) He has walked through some huge shots, sure, but his defensive movement isn't elite in any sense of the word. Terrible might be a strong word, because it's definitely quite good, but he's not elite in my head. I think JDS would crush Overeem if Overeem came in as heavy as he has been lately, threw single shots and tried hiding behind his gloves. Anderson Silva Elite-- Striking Defense ?Feeble Ground and Pound Anderson's GnP is good god damn it. (( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rambo Posted November 27, 2012 Report Share Posted November 27, 2012 Especially since I don't think he ever threw a single punch vs Randy... Who are the best boxers JDS have fought in MMA? Shane Carwin? Roy Nelson? An ancient Cro Cop? Yvel? (Cain hardly threw any punches as far as I can remember) He has walked through some huge shots, sure, but his defensive movement isn't elite in any sense of the word. Terrible might be a strong word, because it's definitely quite good, but he's not elite in my head. I think JDS would crush Overeem if Overeem came in as heavy as he has been lately, threw single shots and tried hiding behind his gloves. Anderson's GnP is good god damn it. (( I 100% agree with you. But in MMATycoon terms, translated from IRL to this game, he'd have elite striking defense. This is a game where an Elite Boxer with Elite++ Punch technique, kicks, and striking defense gets abused like a punching bag: http://www.mmatycoon...php?FTID=502689 Anderson Silva's GNP certainly isn't bad by any means... and Junior Dos Santos is going to slaughter Overoid if they ever fight. It'll be a first round (T)KO and I think you'll know it's gonna end that way from the terrified look in Overoid's eyes. First round TKO win for JDS, I'd bet the house on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minark Posted November 27, 2012 Report Share Posted November 27, 2012 He has walked through some huge shots, sure, but his defensive movement isn't elite in any sense of the word. Terrible might be a strong word, because it's definitely quite good, but he's not elite in my head. Anderson's GnP is good god damn it. (( As far as the game goes I think movement is more agility related. I was just going off MMATycoon stats. But I do agree with you on his movement. He's a bit flat footed which to be honest with you I think has helped him with the power shots. He doesn't have to take the time to plant and set up. Maybe that's just me. But I can see completely where you could say he has good but not elite striking defense. His chin however, has to be elite in my book. Lol. Taken plenty of hard shots and I don't think he's ever even been rocked. I only put Anderson's GnP as low as I did because he almost never uses it. The only real GnP I've seen from him lately is off his back and GnP off your back is typically not that effective damage wise. It does seem to help him set up triangles though. And that's why there was a huge question mark in front of it. Just because recently I haven't seen him use it so I really don't know what level his GnP is at. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djohn Posted November 27, 2012 Report Share Posted November 27, 2012 I Duno why everyone's flipping out calling peeps who disagree or debate the posted stats flamers, idiots, trolls.... This is a forum, if you didn't wana get sum discussion going why post? In just about any combat art speed kills. Silva, GSP, Hendricks, Aldo, Cruz, JDS... or for that matter Mayweather, Ali, and Jones Jr. In his prime. Jones Jr. In particular had sum atrocious habits if you look at his boxing technically. But he wuz so fuccing fast they turned into opportunities for him wen dudes tried to take advantage of it. Athletically the only HW anywhere near JDS is maybe Cain, and even so I don't think he's anywhere near as fast as Dos Santos. JDS uses a lot of in/out and controls the range VERY WELL, but until we see him fight sumone closer to his speed I Duno that we have a good idea how technically sound his boxing is. However it is definitely sum of the most effective in mma. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djohn Posted November 27, 2012 Report Share Posted November 27, 2012 Silva is freakishly quicc, has precognitive timing, hes like 4 long lanky limbs attached to a couple lungs, and easily one of the most technical strikers to participate at the highest level of mma. How He has adapted striking arts to be murderously effective in mma is the stuff legends are made of. It duznt matter if wen he's fighting retired guys who never had power he likes to eat a few punches. If it makes him feel like a bad-ass, or look like a super hero, wutever. Duznt matter if his hands are down wen he's slipping punches. Or if he likes to act like he's using 52Bloccs style to throw people off or throw ridiculous strikes to goad opponents into taking chances. The dude is fuccing BAD. Effectively, Technically, Super humanly. His footwork in particular is Amazing. That shit Cray. How quickly he can switch frum being light on his feet and free moving to planted and powerful. On his feet he is always in perfect position to Fire. And its going to be accurate and powerful wen he lets it go. As much as I can't stand the dude for being such a cocky asshole and wanting to Picc on poor little welterweights while avoiding real challenges at LHW like plague rats, I'm still so happy and honored that I wuz able to watch him perform during his prime. So many classic moments he's created that will be talked about decades after he's retired.... So in short, ya, I agree with him having Elite Striking ratings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minark Posted November 27, 2012 Report Share Posted November 27, 2012 Silva is freakishly quicc, has precognitive timing, hes like 4 long lanky limbs attached to a couple lungs, and easily one of the most technical strikers to participate at the highest level of mma. How He has adapted striking arts to be murderously effective in mma is the stuff legends are made of. It duznt matter if wen he's fighting retired guys who never had power he likes to eat a few punches. If it makes him feel like a bad-ass, or look like a super hero, wutever. Duznt matter if his hands are down wen he's slipping punches. Or if he likes to act like he's using 52Bloccs style to throw people off or throw ridiculous strikes to goad opponents into taking chances. The dude is fuccing BAD. Effectively, Technically, Super humanly. His footwork in particular is Amazing. That shit Cray. How quickly he can switch frum being light on his feet and free moving to planted and powerful. On his feet he is always in perfect position to Fire. And its going to be accurate and powerful wen he lets it go. As much as I can't stand the dude for being such a cocky asshole and wanting to Picc on poor little welterweights while avoiding real challenges at LHW like plague rats, I'm still so happy and honored that I wuz able to watch him perform during his prime. So many classic moments he's created that will be talked about decades after he's retired.... So in short, ya, I agree with him having Elite Striking ratings Yeah, I personally think of Anderson as the Ali of today. He's just so interesting to watch no matter who he is fighting. I've gone back and watched so many Ali fights and it's just rirdculous to watch his foot movement. Half the time his movements didn't even make sense, but they would distract his opponent long enough to get his shots in. And the way Anderson drops his hands and just weaves reminds me a lot of Ali. Ali would drop his hands, just start moving his feet and before you know it a punch is landing square on his opponents mouth. Lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AK47 Posted November 27, 2012 Report Share Posted November 27, 2012 Dan Henderson Exceptional Boxing Superb Muay Thai Elite Wrestling Purple BJJ Elite Punch Superb Kick Proficient Elbow Superb Knee Exceptional Clinchwork Elite Striking Defense(his chin is his defense) Sensational Ground and Pound Exceptional Takedown Offense Elite Takedown Defense Proficient Submissions Exceptional Defensive Grappling Superb Agility Wonderful Flexibility Remarkable Speed Elite Strength Elite Conditioning Sensational Balance Elite Chin Elite KO POWER!!!!!!!!!!!!! God's Right hand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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