Counters discussion - fight engine improvement

[MMATycoon]

OK, so I've just started working on counters. The system I have planned will allow us to comment on attempted / failed counters, which will be good. What I need a little input on is the following;

 

What moves tend to counter what other moves in your opinion and what moves are you unable to counter with other moves?

 

For example, body kicks will tend to lead to counter takedowns.

However, clinch attempts are unlikely to end with a counter head kick.

 

So we have;

 

Head punch

Body punch

Punch combos

Head kick

Body kick

Leg kick

Clinch attempt

Takedown attempt

 

What are the likely and unlikely counters for these moves?

 

I will use your opinions as a modifier to adjust your counter sliders to do more of a specific type of counter and to make them more / less likely to land.

[UniConor]

Head punch counter for a head punch. Slip and rip baby!

[Wolf]

Head punch - head or body punch

Body punch - head punch (uppercut)

Punch combos - head punch or return combo or a clinch

Head kick - takedown

Body kick - takedown

Leg kick - head punch

Clinch attempt - takedown i.e if they are overzealous in trying to clinch you toss them to the floor

Takedown attempt - punch combo/ head punch, knee. I'd like to see some form of sprawl if at all possible so you end up on top of your opp

[verbalkint]

Are you thinking of certain grades of counter (success) also or is it more about specification? Let's say we have a counter takedown: a) passes passes but lands in a guillotine, one time sub attempt from op's back c) passes but in the following scramble positions got turned d) counter fails and the fighter eats a nasty knee/uppercut?

[shortfuse122829]

Head punch - head punch/body puch/TD/clinch/combo

Body punch - head punch/head kick/clinch

Punch combos - head punch/TD/clinch

Head kick - combo/TD/clinch

Body kick - head punch/TD/combo/head kick

Leg kick - head punch/body punch/TD/combo/head kick

Clinch attempt - head punch/knees to body/body punch/TD/clinch

Takedown attempt - head punch (either uppercut as he shoots or stuff & throw on way out) / clinch / TD / head kick (knee to face text)

[Rain]

Head punch - Takedown/Head Punch/Body Punch/Low Kick/Mid Kick/High Kick/Punch Combo - (all the kicks off the angle)

Body punch - Head Punch/Head Kick/Clinch

Punch combos - Takedown/Head Punch/Clinch

Head kick - Low Kick/Takedown/Combo/Clinch/Head Punch(ex. opp goes for right high kick, you step off the angle and jab)

Body kick - Takedown/Head Kick/Head Punch/Combo

Leg kick - Head Punch/Punch Combo/TD/Head Kick

Clinch attempt - body kick(push kick only)/head kick (front kick only)/TD/Head Punch

Takedown attempt - Knee Head/Head Punch/TD/Clinch

[shortfuse122829]

I second Rain's. I was gonna adjust mine to add more & explanations as it is tough on gaming console but he did it 4 me.

I'd add counter clinch to clinch too, basically a reversal of position by turning them into the cage.

[Guest]

Head punch >> [Counter Head Punch {Jab, Cross, Hook, Uppercut}, Leg Kick, Takedown]

Body punch >> [Knee/Kick to head, Leg Kick]

Punch combos >> [Takedown]

Head kick >> [None]

Body kick >> [Trip/Double Leg Takedown, Overhand Right/Left]

Leg kick >> [Double Leg Takedown, Overhand Right/Left, Straight Cross]

Clinch attempt >> [Knee up the middle, Front kick to Body, Body Lock Takedown]

Takedown attempt >> [Guillotine Choke, FLYING KNEE!! ]

Would be cool if you could create an instance where one guy throws a punch combo, the other guy counters with a punch combo & they slug it out. You can create an animated comment similar to the red/blue one that indicate a slugfest is taking place.

[Rain]

 

I second Rain's. I was gonna adjust mine to add more & explanations as it is tough on gaming console but he did it 4 me.

I'd add counter clinch to clinch too, basically a reversal of position by turning them into the cage.

 

 

Yea, but in Tycoon there are no clinch positions. It would be nice if transitions secondary also worked in the clinch to gain the muay thai clinch, over under or double underhooks

[shortfuse122829]

Yeah it's probably a moot point anyway as counter grapple & counter clinch settings will eliminate all those other options anyway but was just trying to think of things you typically see in fights

[shortfuse122829]

Takedown attempt >> [Guillotine Choke love that suggestion as well

[Guest]

Takedown - you end up on your opponents back while he is in turtle position

[Rain]

You should be really vulnerable to counters while attempting clinch or takedowns against advanced strikers and counter clinches and takedowns should be not very hard

 

P.s. I'd like to see submissions added in clinch, like this:

A slider Takedown/Submissions

If takedown - slider takedown or pull guard

If submission - Standing Guilotine, Standing Kimura, Standing RNC. Easier to escape but possible to land from clinch

[markyosullivan]

There's a lot of people saying that you can counter head kicks, I'm not exactly sure if that's correct. Can anyone provide clips of fights where they've seen head kicks properly being countered?

 

I really hope Flying Knee to counter takedown will be implemented but it has to be uncommon or maybe only happen if a bad wrestler tries to takedown a fighter who has great knees and is very fast.

[topologies]

There's a lot of people saying that you can counter head kicks, I'm not exactly sure if that's correct. Can anyone provide clips of fights where they've seen head kicks properly being countered?

 

I really hope Flying Knee to counter takedown will be implemented but it has to be uncommon or maybe only happen if a bad wrestler tries to takedown a fighter who has great knees and is very fast.

If you lean back you can counter a head kick with a kick to the body/head/leg kick. In muay thai matches they do it often.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJjhNa3oCx8

you can see it in 2:42.

[iLuke92]

There should be more positions for clinch like what rain said all we get is in a clinch and either strikes breaks it or tries to pull guard or takedown, what about double under hooks etc?

[markyosullivan]

If you lean back you can counter a head kick with a kick to the body/head/leg kick. In muay thai matches they do it often.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJjhNa3oCx8

you can see it in 2:42.

 

Has it happened often in MMA though?

[Rain]

There's a lot of people saying that you can counter head kicks, I'm not exactly sure if that's correct. Can anyone provide clips of fights where they've seen head kicks properly being countered?

 

I really hope Flying Knee to counter takedown will be implemented but it has to be uncommon or maybe only happen if a bad wrestler tries to takedown a fighter who has great knees and is very fast.

In MMATycoon, in order to counter something, you need to make that something miss. Same goes with head kicks - when your opponent misses a head kick he is very vulnerable. You can take his back and land a suplex, you can get an easy double, counter with a kick. Tons of opportunity's to respond after a missed head kick.

[markyosullivan]

You can take his back and land a suplex, you can get an easy double, counter with a kick. Tons of opportunity's to respond after a missed head kick.

 

Can you please show me this in a clip from an MMA fight. I'm asking people to provide evidence of these counters because I haven't seen them myself.

[clydebankblitz]

People can be countered on a headkick with an overhand right easy enough.

[Guest]

You would have to charge at the person to "counter" their head kick. It's not technically a counter. A counter is almost instantaneous movement off of the initial move. In MT you see it more often but in MMA, almost never. SO I just say there are no real counters for the Head kick in MMA. 99% of the time fighters just move out the way.

[markyosullivan]

You would have to charge at the person to "counter" their head kick. It's not technically a counter. A counter is almost instantaneous movement off of the initial move. In MT you see it more often but in MMA, almost never. SO I just say there are no real counters for the Head kick in MMA. 99% of the time fighters just move out the way.

This is what I thought, so in my opinion no counters should be added for head kicks unless it's a K1 fight because Topo provided evidence of it being countered during a Muay Thai fight.

 

Too many people are saying "Oh yeah you can counter x with y" without proving it with video clips.

 

If you can't provide examples, it shouldn't be added as a counter. Simple.

[potter09]

I'm gonna read upon this thread tomorro and put my 2 pence into it

[Haplo]

Head punch: likely counters- Head punch, body punch, takedown, low kick

unlikely counters- Clinch(you move your protecting hands away from your head)

Body punch: likely counters- clinch attempt, head punch, body punch, elbows, knees for taller fighters

unlikely counters-any kick, takedowns. Usually throwing body punches requires them to close the distance, when that distance is taken away kicks become awkward. Since they drop their hand to throw the body punch, it also makes it easier to get underhooks to stop takedowns.

Punch combos likely counters-- takedowns! head punch, clinch,

unlikely counters-- kicks, if you sacrifice your mobility to throw a kick mid comb your probably going to get swarmed

Head kick likely counters-- head punch, any kick while they are recovering

unlikely counter-- body punch, takedown, clinch

Body kick likely counter-- takedown, low kick

unlikely counter-- any punch, clinch

Leg kick likely counter-- head punch, check/low kick, takedown

unlikely counter-- body punch, clinch,

Clinch attempt likely counter-- head punch, body punch, takedown

unlikely counter kicks

Takedown attempt likely counter- takedown, clinch, any punch, knee, submission attempt (higher% chance if your guy is set to give up the takedown anyway?)

unlikely counter any kick

Kicks tend to suck as counters because they require space and require you to cover distance in order to generate power. The best way to stop someone from kicking is to force them to step back. Low kicks however have some very good situations where they are useful as counters when your opponent has thrown themselves off balance. They also require much less space to generate power.

I'm not sure if the following is done in the system, but kicks are great to shut down your opponents mobility and head movement. If they have lateral movement, it is a lot easier to box/cut off the ring by throwing kicks as opposed to throwing hooks because they have a greater distance. A low kick that lands or is checked forces your opponent to stop moving, making him a target for punches. If your opponent is using head movement to avoid punches, he can easily duck into a kick or knee.

Kicks are good to break down a someone in a defensive posture looking to counter, they are horrible to use if you are trying to counter. Most headkicks that miss are usually taken on the arms, or the opponent moves back out of the way leaving themselves in a poor position to counter.

[Mez]

I think takedowns should be able to be stuffed...but then the person trying a takedown could counter and drop into guard.