Guest Posted January 16, 2010 Report Share Posted January 16, 2010 So title says it all. I've heard that you dont need a triple elite coach to get the best clinchwork training. Something along the lines of 150/130/110 is just as good as triple elite. But I've also heard today that that rumor has been dispelled (although from a rather shady source). So I'm turning to the community for some answers. I know that no one will know forsure but I figure it will make for some good discussion. go Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 16, 2010 Report Share Posted January 16, 2010 Im very curious about this too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 16, 2010 Report Share Posted January 16, 2010 I don't think it's necessary, I even think it's a bit thoughtless. You need TWELVE fighters to support such a coach. When you look at the gyms in the game, most of them have around 4 fighters training under the tripple elite coach, which means the demand is not high enough to justify such costs. You need almost 3 times as many members to support a triple elite financially, which means your average session has 3 times as many fighters in it (considering all fighters needed to support that coach are also training under him). The overflow of fighters with that coach theoretically make the sessions less effective, not more. A triple elite coach is not nearly three times as good, yet costs almost 3 times as much. Take a single elite with either wrestling or MT, or at best a double elite with both, but leave out boxing. With the caps on gym fees you should always look at what's best price/quality wise and cap the members as low as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 16, 2010 Report Share Posted January 16, 2010 When I think of the Clinch, I think of MT and Wrestling. I know there is a hint of the boxing element involved because of the "dirty-boxing" but when you look at the clinch sliders, that is the only point where Boxing comes into play. The rest is mainly MT and Wrestling based imo - strikes, aggression, control, takedowns, standing. Would like to see what people think about that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 16, 2010 Report Share Posted January 16, 2010 I don't think it's necessary, I even think it's a bit thoughtless. You need TWELVE fighters to support such a coach. When you look at the gyms in the game, most of them have around 4 fighters training under the tripple elite coach, which means the demand is not high enough to justify such costs. You need almost 3 times as many members to support a triple elite financially, which means your average session has 3 times as many fighters in it (considering all fighters needed to support that coach are also training under him). The overflow of fighters with that coach theoretically make the sessions less effective, not more. A triple elite coach is not nearly three times as good, yet costs almost 3 times as much. Take a single elite with either wrestling or MT, or at best a double elite with both, but leave out boxing. With the caps on gym fees you should always look at what's best price/quality wise and cap the members as low as possible. I agree that it may not make the most financial sense, but from a pure training point of view, (considering only whats best for training the clinchwork skill) do you think a triple elite is neccessarily better. Has anyone specificly tested this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 16, 2010 Report Share Posted January 16, 2010 I have no idea, but on the wiki there's the same example with punching technique. To get the absolute best, considering you have unlimited resources, double elite is required to get everything out of the session. I would assume that this is the same for clinching. 150/130/110 seems rather random and questionably specific. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravener Posted January 16, 2010 Report Share Posted January 16, 2010 I agree that it may not make the most financial sense, but from a pure training point of view, (considering only whats best for training the clinchwork skill) do you think a triple elite is neccessarily better. Has anyone specificly tested this? With financial sense excluded, we're left with "we know MT and Wrestling play into Clinchwork, but how about Boxing which would be the only reason to triple Elite?" I would think Boxing plays into it, even if it's a tiny percentage, like minard said, there is a dirty boxing aspect to Clinchwork. So even if Clinchwork is 60% MT, 35% Wrestling, and only 5% Boxing, then sure, having a triple elite would indeed give you the maximum possible training benefit. Would you pay all that much more, for the nominal help that Elite Boxing provides? Up to you. It may even be hard to test the efficacy of getting that full 5% in training anyway. Btw, I'd bet that boxing plays somewhat more than 5% Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 16, 2010 Report Share Posted January 16, 2010 It's not just financial sense, it's quality sense. If you run a self sustaining gym and want the best possible training, don't hire a triple elite coach or anything near it. I don't think you quite get what I'm saying. Let's give an analogy with a hotel. You have a hotel and like to give people eggs in the morning from your own chickens. There are two types of chickens. The mediocre chicken costs $15 a week to take care of and lays 2 eggs a day. The superior chicken costs $30/week and lays 3 eggs. You can only take care of a maximum of 12 chickens. The guests at your hotel can maximum pay $20 on chicken fee a week but you are free to decide how many guests you let stay at any one time. What setup do you use to get your guests as many eggs as possible? If you get 12 mediocre chickens and allow 9 guests, you can give the average guest 2.6 eggs a person. If you get 12 superior chickens and allow 18 guests, you can only give your guests an average of 2 eggs per person. Which guests are better off? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santa Posted January 16, 2010 Report Share Posted January 16, 2010 Me, the one fighter who is one of those 4 in the tripple Elite clinchwork session. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 16, 2010 Report Share Posted January 16, 2010 It's not just financial sense, it's quality sense. If you run a self sustaining gym and want the best possible training, don't hire a triple elite coach or anything near it. I don't think you quite get what I'm saying. Let's give an analogy with a hotel. You have a hotel and like to give people eggs in the morning from your own chickens. There are two types of chickens. The mediocre chicken costs $15 a week to take care of and lays 2 eggs a day. The superior chicken costs $30/week and lays 3 eggs. You can only take care of a maximum of 12 chickens. The guests at your hotel can maximum pay $20 on chicken fee a week but you are free to decide how many guests you let stay at any one time. What setup do you use to get your guests as many eggs as possible? If you get 12 mediocre chickens and allow 9 guests, you can give the average guest 2.6 eggs a person. If you get 12 superior chickens and allow 18 guests, you can only give your guests an average of 2 eggs per person. Which guests are better off? Steeve, with all due respect phuck your analogy. My question is: in a vacuum; with nothing else figured in; will a triple elite train this particular skill better than a non-triple elite coach and by what amount. Dont mean to be rude. Patty, what are your results? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 16, 2010 Report Share Posted January 16, 2010 Steeve, with all due respect phuck your analogy. My question is: in a vacuum; with nothing else figured in; will a triple elite train this particular skill better than a non-triple elite coach and by what amount. Dont mean to be rude. I'm sorry Joshw I wasn't responding to you but to Ravener Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 16, 2010 Report Share Posted January 16, 2010 Obviously it is better. But if the class size raises proportionally then probably not. You could probably do with just boxing for punching and just bjj for sub offence. Is a double better? Of course. Would I rather have a one on one with the single than a 2 man class with the double? Yes. That being said things like striking D and defensive grappling pretty clearly need dbl elites. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 16, 2010 Report Share Posted January 16, 2010 I'm sorry Joshw I wasn't responding to you but to Ravener Hopefully I wasnt too rude. Just read my comment and I probably was.......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 16, 2010 Report Share Posted January 16, 2010 Start of MMA_Tycoon buffer: Mon Nov 23 01:28:38 2009 Session Ident: MMA_Tycoon (Mibbit@mib-5D82AA95.cable.virginmedia.com) [19:02] <Invictus> Hi [19:02] <MMA_Tycoon> hi [19:04] <Invictus> I've heard a few people mention that for Clinchwork Elite MT/Remarkable Wrestling/Superb Boxing would serve as a true Elite since the Wrestling and Boxing are needed in smaller degrees. You were used a source for this. Is that true? [19:05] <MMA_Tycoon> in fights or coaches or what? im not really following [19:05] <Invictus> Coaches [19:05] <MMA_Tycoon> that coach wouldnt be elite [19:06] <MMA_Tycoon> i would imagine you need a fair amount of wrestling for clinch [19:06] <MMA_Tycoon> i cant remember exactly what i set it as [19:06] <Invictus> Heh. Figured Remarkable was a fair amount. [19:06] <MMA_Tycoon> yeah it's good but it's not going to make them the best possible [19:07] <Invictus> What would that take? [19:07] <MMA_Tycoon> i wouldnt think of coaches in terms of being levels anyway - it's done the same way as fighter skills on a 1-150, not on levels [19:07] <MMA_Tycoon> (in terms of coach effectiveness) [19:08] <Invictus> So, it'd need to need to be Triple Elite? [19:08] <MMA_Tycoon> for you to be 150, you'd need to be 150 in everything [19:08] <MMA_Tycoon> but it depends whether you awnt to be 150 or 142 or whatever [19:08] <Invictus> I mean the coach. [19:09] <MMA_Tycoon> yeah me too [19:09] <Invictus> Oh. [19:12] <Invictus> So, Triple Elite would be the only way to attain 150 Clinchwork? [19:12] <MMA_Tycoon> yeah [19:14] <Invictus> Interesting, the way the Wiki explained Punches, didn't seem the secondaries needed to be Elite. [19:14] <Invictus> Thanks though. [19:14] <Invictus> Good to know. [19:15] <MMA_Tycoon> in terms of cost efficiency, it's a total waste to bother having elite in secondary stuff but it's there for people to aim for if they want absolute perfect training [19:16] <Invictus> Ah. [19:17] <MMA_Tycoon> the above should have a "sometimes" in ther [19:17] <MMA_Tycoon> e [19:17] <MMA_Tycoon> sometimes a waste [19:17] <Invictus> The More You Know End of MMA_Tycoon buffer Mon Nov 23 01:28:38 2009 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 16, 2010 Report Share Posted January 16, 2010 Thank you invictus. By the way Steeve, you were right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 17, 2010 Report Share Posted January 17, 2010 Oh man... I give this marvelous analogy and you still doubt me? Quite an achievement on Invictus' part for both remembering that conversation and finding it back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 17, 2010 Report Share Posted January 17, 2010 Easy blackbelt....... I apologized for being a dick and stated you were correct (which I didnt doubt I just wanted to quantify the training advantage) lets not troll each other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 17, 2010 Report Share Posted January 17, 2010 don't worry about Steeve, he's just Steeve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 17, 2010 Report Share Posted January 17, 2010 Always surprised by the creativity of DIDM. No way that I could ever say that he's just DIDM, he isn't. He's more than that. He's special. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 17, 2010 Report Share Posted January 17, 2010 a bit off-topic,helll more than a bit, but wots a good coach to fighter ratio,wots an average ratio... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 17, 2010 Report Share Posted January 17, 2010 *sigh* just re-read that shit i posted, i guess wot im trying to ask is where on the scale does a 43:1 ratio stand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 17, 2010 Report Share Posted January 17, 2010 In most elite gyms about half of the fighters are not even training with coaches, which means that you can find elite coaches with 3 sessions or less. Those are the good ones. 43:1, you mean 43 coach points to 1 fighter? That is better than you can afford theoretically, but like I said a lot of the fighters in a gym are not even training with the coaches. 43:1 or better is already pretty good, but you can find 50+ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 17, 2010 Report Share Posted January 17, 2010 erm, actually i think i mean 43 fighters to 1 coach Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 17, 2010 Report Share Posted January 17, 2010 erm, actually i think i mean 43 fighters to 1 coach That's pretty disastrous, time to push the eject button. It depends on the quality of the coaches and the gym fee, but that's no good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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