ajperok Posted May 5, 2012 Report Share Posted May 5, 2012 Because it seems every guy I face now is Sensational or Elite Boxing, and Sensational or Elite Muay Thai, with I am sure elite takedown defense NOTE: I edited this post, because it was knee jerk, and I don't want to say anything to offend the managers who I have been facing, and have done nothing but be classy opponents. What isn't knee jerk is my disdain for trying to make grapple first competitors and the frustration that originates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 5, 2012 Report Share Posted May 5, 2012 You're welcome to come and face some of my guys, I'll promise you a 85% knock out rate. Almost across my entire roster. See you in Helsinki. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajperok Posted May 5, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2012 I'd love too, but I think I am retiring from this game until I see a wrestler or BJJ fighter succeed at the top levels of this game, since I apparently am missing some key ingredient and need to go back to the drawing board 2/23 in takedowns Elite Speed Elite Agility Elite+ Strength Sensational+ wrestling primary Sensational+ takedowns Elite Clinchwork (because I tried from there too) and I can't land a takedown over 2 fights? Even attacked with a strong mix up of strikes, clinch attempts and came from the counter side of the sliders. What more can you fucking do? --- and yes, I know Tonal has wrestling skills. But as we all know, he is 29. Elite/Sensational/Elite/Brown ...... good luck making any of those nowdays. . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBR Posted May 5, 2012 Report Share Posted May 5, 2012 not really cause ground game sucks donkey balls pretty much edited for your post above: i could live with not landing takedowns easy if not for the b/s ref stand ups -- its tough getting a takedown and when getting stood up with in 30 secs to a min makes it twice as discouraging to build ground fighter or try the ground game -- one or the other isnt bad but both make it not worth even trying -- once in a while though a ground fight goes the way it should and works fine but that is maybe 1 out of 10 or so -- i have couple elite wrestlers with elite+ takedowns and get shut out or stood up right away by remarkable wrestling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 5, 2012 Report Share Posted May 5, 2012 My guys get takedowns just fine. Maybe you shoudl teach your college wrestling some MMA? You cant come in and thing you can just shoot takedowns all day verses other guys with the same level wrestling or even close. I hvae no problem getting 1/3, 1/2, 3/9, etc. You are never going to get a takedown ifyou are getting your ass handed to you on the feet. There is a balance you have to have to be successful. You have to not get your ass kicked long enough to get 3-5 takedowns off(to get a honest chance at getting on) but at the same time you have to stand long enough to set them up properly. You dont want to stand to long but you dont want to spam takedowns either. When you do have he timing down on your number of attempts you cant be getting you ass kicked before you shoot the takedowns. When you get 2 high level wrestler against each other they ussually cancel each other out. So you will have to learn to strike. With this weeks fight with Koscheck and Hendricks. Both high level guys in wrestling. even though their gaps in physical ability is larger than what we see on the game(everyone is Sens or elite) neither guy will still come out ad be able to roll over the other without using any striking. Even with Kos being bigger and stronger he wont be able to do hat. Even with Hendricks being faster he cant do that. They will strike and mix in a takedown here and there. Although i do expect Kos to spam takedowns much more than ussal to protect his chin this fight. But you get the point. All the top wrestlers in MMA use their wrestling to stay on their feet. Any wrestler who uses wrestling to take people down and smash them 99% of the time run into another wrestler who forces them to stand and destroy them. Thats what GSP did to all the wrestlers he beat. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 5, 2012 Report Share Posted May 5, 2012 In your Troter fight. You were on the outside 70% of the fight. Durign that time you got hit 67 times and only landed 12 strikes. Not to mention he beat you in the clinch too. You cant get takedowns without any energy. You cant fight effectively on the ground without energy. In short stop getting smashed on the feet and hit someone! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 5, 2012 Report Share Posted May 5, 2012 ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 5, 2012 Report Share Posted May 5, 2012 Funny, as my latest experience (past couple months) is that I cant stop takedown spam for life even when vastly outclassing the opponent. I have actually decided to decline every fight against sens or better offensive wrestler because there is jack shit I can do against it. to aj perok - odds are your guys got shit hiddens, tehre is apparently a lot involved since some of my guys have always been able to stuff all takedowns while some cant stuff anything no matter what, for absolutely no reason as everyone has at least wond wre sens tdd and sens/elite physicals. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soyster89 Posted May 5, 2012 Report Share Posted May 5, 2012 I have wrestlers on my roster, but they're not one dimensional either. Vinny Russo Richard Dawkins and my newest creation, Apollo Jackson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nemesis84 Posted May 5, 2012 Report Share Posted May 5, 2012 I have a straight up Wrestler who has just gotten himself into GAMMA using his GnP skills to win all but 2 of his fights but no idea what he will be like when he comes up against some of the better guys as he moves his way up the ladder in the Org. In closing though I actually like Wrestlers and may create more of them in the future when I sack the current batch of fighters I have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warwynd Posted May 5, 2012 Report Share Posted May 5, 2012 Funny, as my latest experience (past couple months) is that I cant stop takedown spam for life even when vastly outclassing the opponent. I have actually decided to decline every fight against sens or better offensive wrestler because there is jack shit I can do against it. to aj perok - odds are your guys got shit hiddens, tehre is apparently a lot involved since some of my guys have always been able to stuff all takedowns while some cant stuff anything no matter what, for absolutely no reason as everyone has at least wond wre sens tdd and sens/elite physicals. This man speaks the truth. I cannot speak on the top end of this game, but I can say definitively that in the bush leagues at the moment there is a huge trend towards what one of my friends calls the 'I win' build. They have Wonderful wrestling right out of the gate and they max out their takesdowns, GnP or BJJ and only enough SD and Boxing to get them inside to land one of the spam takedowns. They are also almost always taking Granite Chin, Intelligent, and Heart hiddens at creation. Because the way the hierarchy goes the takedowns go off first and unless you have an absolutely insane amount of TDD and wrestling yourself you will get taken down and unless you also possess an insane amount of Def Grap you will get subbed or pounded out. It has gotten to the point where I am tempted to decline any fight against a guy that was clearly built this way. They are easy to spot. They have almost no standup skills and monsterous Ground Skills. When most guys look something like Remarkable/Abysmal/Supeb/Blue these guys will look like Woeful/Useless/Exceptional/White. Very often the first thing that happens in the fight is the bell rings and immediately a takedown and then 30-80 seconds of GnP. It gets old really fast. They are everywhere down in the lower tiers. I don't know how well these guys will do in the top levels. I suspect very bad actually as they wll not be able to deal with the strikers in the top echellons, but down here at the bottom they are very tough to beat. I can't even risk taking time out to train anything but TDD Def Grap and Wrestling sparring for most of my guys because if I don't get to those ridiculous numbers I will get crushed. I have one standup fighter who as had any luck with that build. All the rest get taken down and destroyed pretty easily. Conversely, my Wrestlers are starting to do quite well. It's hard to tell at a glance because I am just now starting to get half way decent in my slider skills and those guys lost a lot earlier in their careers. But they are moving along nicely. It seems to me now that the best way to build a fighter is to start out with a tremendous wrestling base and develop the standup as he advances his career. That is how my newest fighter is built... I'll let you guys know how it goes... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soyster89 Posted May 5, 2012 Report Share Posted May 5, 2012 This man speaks the truth. I cannot speak on the top end of this game, but I can say definitively that in the bush leagues at the moment there is a huge trend towards what one of my friends calls the 'I win' build. They have Wonderful wrestling right out of the gate and they max out their takesdowns, GnP or BJJ and only enough SD and Boxing to get them inside to land one of the spam takedowns. They are also almost always taking Granite Chin, Intelligent, and Heart hiddens at creation. Because the way the hierarchy goes the takedowns go off first and unless you have an absolutely insane amount of TDD and wrestling yourself you will get taken down and unless you also possess an insane amount of Def Grap you will get subbed or pounded out. It has gotten to the point where I am tempted to decline any fight against a guy that was clearly built this way. They are easy to spot. They have almost no standup skills and monsterous Ground Skills. When most guys look something like Remarkable/Abysmal/Supeb/Blue these guys will look like Woeful/Useless/Exceptional/White. Very often the first thing that happens in the fight is the bell rings and immediately a takedown and then 30-80 seconds of GnP. It gets old really fast. They are everywhere down in the lower tiers. I don't know how well these guys will do in the top levels. I suspect very bad actually as they wll not be able to deal with the strikers in the top echellons, but down here at the bottom they are very tough to beat. I can't even risk taking time out to train anything but TDD Def Grap and Wrestling sparring for most of my guys because if I don't get to those ridiculous numbers I will get crushed. I have one standup fighter who as had any luck with that build. All the rest get taken down and destroyed pretty easily. Conversely, my Wrestlers are starting to do quite well. It's hard to tell at a glance because I am just now starting to get half way decent in my slider skills and those guys lost a lot earlier in their careers. But they are moving along nicely. It seems to me now that the best way to build a fighter is to start out with a tremendous wrestling base and develop the standup as he advances his career. That is how my newest fighter is built... I'll let you guys know how it goes... This is the same thing in real life too - lower tier orgs are dominated by wrestlers with basic striking. However, as the skills advance the higher up the ladder, the more well-rounded fighters do the best. Wrestling, in my opinion, is the base. If it isn't, then you better have some amazing striking and TD Def early on, as you stated, or just stick with fighting K1 fighters. There's another way to defend the new wrestlers who insist on TD spamming too - it's called submissions. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warwynd Posted May 5, 2012 Report Share Posted May 5, 2012 This is the same thing in real life too - lower tier orgs are dominated by wrestlers with basic striking. However, as the skills advance the higher up the ladder, the more well-rounded fighters do the best. Wrestling, in my opinion, is the base. If it isn't, then you better have some amazing striking and TD Def early on, as you stated, or just stick with fighting K1 fighters. There's another way to defend the new wrestlers who insist on TD spamming too - it's called submissions. Quite true. Particularly the bold part. But earlier in my career with this game I made builds that I thought made sense, but as anyone who has played the game for awhile will tell you, you should not spread your points out so much when you are first starting out. You should pick one ortwo prmaries and dump all or most of your points into those and then rain up defenses and then you can start going into the other primaries. But... live and learn. The point being that I have struggled pretty badly with wrestlers because many of my guys were strikers primarily and wrestling has always proven problematic Also though, even if you are a brown or blck belt, if you don't have good wrestling you will be neutralized on the ground by a superior wrestler. One of my brown belts has had that problem in about half his losses. He was a broen belt with Wonderful Subs, and Wonderful Def Grap, but his wrestling ws only Abysmal... so he lost the first time he got in there with a wrestler... I know... it was stupid to have his wrestling so low. I have been working steadily to correct this. But it is slow going and he is a slow learner I suspect... I may have to sack him after his contract is up... not sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeadlyDirk Posted May 5, 2012 Report Share Posted May 5, 2012 This is the same thing in real life too - lower tier orgs are dominated by wrestlers with basic striking. However, as the skills advance the higher up the ladder, the more well-rounded fighters do the best. Wrestling, in my opinion, is the base. If it isn't, then you better have some amazing striking and TD Def early on, as you stated, or just stick with fighting K1 fighters. There's another way to defend the new wrestlers who insist on TD spamming too - it's called submissions. Spot on, wrestlers can dominate at lower levels with wrestling along at lower levels in real life, when you get to the upper levels I can't think of any wrestlers that are dominating, certainly not by just relying on takedowns anyway, most of the ground specialists mix in a lot of striking, or completely use their wrestling in reverse, the ones that do rely soley on wrestling and takedowns are trading wins with the odd losses. I honestly don't think there's a whole lot wrong with takedowns at the moment. I wouldn't even know which way it needs tweaking, if anything the only issue is it still seems to be a little random. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dee Posted May 5, 2012 Report Share Posted May 5, 2012 I really struggle keeping the fights on the feet nowadays. Dry humping is the most annoying thing in the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacky67 Posted May 5, 2012 Report Share Posted May 5, 2012 to land takedown u need to spam takedown , there no more big energy hit from missing takedowns , so just spam takedowns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 5, 2012 Report Share Posted May 5, 2012 http://mmatycoon.com/fighterprofilemanager.php?FID=53031 My guy Zeldenthuis just broke the p4p top ten this morning. He is a grappler. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 5, 2012 Report Share Posted May 5, 2012 to land takedown u need to spam takedown , there no more big energy hit from missing takedowns , so just spam takedowns. Dont forget that the landing rate doesnt really decrease - you can fail 17 TDs in a row and then land the 18th, 21st and 25th one like a boss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 6, 2012 Report Share Posted May 6, 2012 Dont forget that the landing rate doesnt really decrease - you can fail 17 TDs in a row and then land the 18th, 21st and 25th one like a boss. Which is why you have to take advantage of their energy loss and try to finish them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eveas Posted May 6, 2012 Report Share Posted May 6, 2012 Sure they may get a TD on their 20th try, but up until that point they were getting punched in the face without doing any damage at all to me. Spammers usually get KO'd. More of my fighters are wrestlers than not, and I have a supremely higher TD rate when I pick and choose my shots than when I just simply spam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 6, 2012 Report Share Posted May 6, 2012 Also when they get the 20th takedown they are useless on the ground with no energy. But at the same time you cant be a pillow fighters and not finish them either as you will lose your energy and pay for letting them hang around. Its very hard to winning spamming takedowns. Not impossible but very hard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warwynd Posted May 6, 2012 Report Share Posted May 6, 2012 I typically land my own takedowns off of counters. Or at least I attempt to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 6, 2012 Report Share Posted May 6, 2012 Which is why you have to take advantage of their energy loss and try to finish them. Thats just a comparison of hiddens, there is absolutely nothing to "do" about it. Also when they get the 20th takedown they are useless on the ground with no energy. But at the same time you cant be a pillow fighters and not finish them either as you will lose your energy and pay for letting them hang around. Its very hard to winning spamming takedowns. Not impossible but very hard. Not rly, you just need good timing 2 takedowns to win a 3 round match by decision, 3 for 5 rounder.. so really all thats left is enough hiddens to not get KOed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Posted May 6, 2012 Report Share Posted May 6, 2012 Not rly, you just need good timing 2 takedowns to win a 3 round match by decision, 3 for 5 rounder.. so really all thats left is enough hiddens to not get KOed. Ignoring confidence, intelligence and that fact you need probably 80% of the striking skills of the other guy (at least). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 6, 2012 Report Share Posted May 6, 2012 Thats just a comparison of hiddens, there is absolutely nothing to "do" about it. Not rly, you just need good timing 2 takedowns to win a 3 round match by decision, 3 for 5 rounder.. so really all thats left is enough hiddens to not get KOed. Really? Im smashing granite chins like they are nothing. Also if it takes you 20 takedowns to get 1 takedown you wont get 1 each round. Infact it would take the worst possible game plan to lose to someone who took that many takedowns to be successful. You lose energy every time you miss a takedown. How exactly am i going to lose energy? Once you miss a couple takedowns i will be landed almost everything i throw because i am fresher. If you still get a takedown later in the round you wont be able to win that round even if you didnt get KO'ed. Basically you have to hope i wear mysef out throwing strikes and then you get a takedown with enough time to land enough on the ground to steal it. Unlikely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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