Guest Posted June 13, 2012 Report Share Posted June 13, 2012 Xyel. Scroll through the fights of this guy. Did, from the past year and a half I found 1 match where his elbows/knees were useful - http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=437527 and would have probably won without them as well - otherwise whenever his elbows/knees were doing something, he was absolutely destroying the other guy with dirty boxing as well. This guy makes me think elbows/knees are even more useless than I had thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasman Posted June 13, 2012 Report Share Posted June 13, 2012 Did, from the past year and a half I found 1 match where his elbows/knees were useful - http://www.mmatycoon...php?FTID=437527 and would have probably won without them as well - otherwise whenever his elbows/knees were doing something, he was absolutely destroying the other guy with dirty boxing as well. This guy makes me think elbows/knees are even more useless than I had thought. You didn't look closely enough then. The oldest fight there is from Feb last year, less than 1 1/2 year ago, most are les than a year old.. For http://www.mmatycoon...php?FTID=437527 http://www.mmatycoon...php?FTID=405272 http://www.mmatycoon...php?FTID=370928 http://www.mmatycoon...php?FTID=331889 http://www.mmatycoon...php?FTID=311973 Against http://www.mmatycoon...php?FTID=451056 http://www.mmatycoon...php?FTID=263420 It was in the fight against Demidov (the oldest fight) where i realized how important knees were. When used "correctly" slider wise, Elbows and Knees are devastating in this game IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasman Posted June 13, 2012 Report Share Posted June 13, 2012 Did, from the past year and a half I found 1 match where his elbows/knees were useful - http://www.mmatycoon...php?FTID=437527 and would have probably won without them as well - otherwise whenever his elbows/knees were doing something, he was absolutely destroying the other guy with dirty boxing as well. This guy makes me think elbows/knees are even more useless than I had thought. What you seem to be missing totally from your point, is that WITH elbows and knees, along with punches, you can mix it up way more in the clinch, therefore making it look easy. Maybe he would have won anyway, but in my experience, my fighters that do have effective elbows and knees with punches, are WAY more effective in the clinch than my fighters with punches only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasman Posted June 13, 2012 Report Share Posted June 13, 2012 Here is from another of my fighters Won some, lost some, but good use of elbows and knees. http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=392755 http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=401500 http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=411493 http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=421018 http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=344956 http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=354960 http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=367691 http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=381223 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasman Posted June 13, 2012 Report Share Posted June 13, 2012 I have a few others with decent Elbows/Knees who have used them effectively in fights, but just can't be arsed really to go through them and post it. I'd be very happy if you guys manage to convince Mike that Elbows/Knees should be more effective than they already are, as that will play nicely into my gameplanning But i definitely don't think the fight engine is in need of it, i think it's more about a lack of clinch slider knowledge than game engine imbalance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 13, 2012 Report Share Posted June 13, 2012 Here is from another of my fighters Won some, lost some, but good use of elbows and knees. http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=392755 http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=401500 http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=411493 http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=421018 http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=344956 http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=354960 http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=367691 http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=381223 And in what match did they actually help you as in had influence on the result of the match? I see one - http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=421018 . What you seem to be missing totally from your point, is that WITH elbows and knees, along with punches, you can mix it up way more in the clinch, therefore making it look easy. And the mixing up adds how much landing rate chance? Because missing elbow/knee strikes costs energy + you could have thrown a punch, which lands much better. Now thing is, the opportunity cost of elbows and knees for a striker is takedowns and gnp or higher basic striking stats + physicals. Do you really think your fighters get that much from elbows/knees that its worth sacrificing offensive ground game for it? This one is a great example as the fighters got very similar id and probably similar training (at least my guy spent first 2 years in public gyms): http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=381223 , yes elbows and knees made you very closely win the clinch, but at the cost of getting destroyed in striking by better primaries and physicals. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soyster89 Posted June 13, 2012 Report Share Posted June 13, 2012 Sorry about being late to this party. I agree that elbows can be difficult to land, but they should be. A punch connects much easier than an elbow does. That said, I mix it up with my clinch guy and can't complain about the accuracy of his striking. http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=441411 http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=426458 http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=416453 http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=403279 http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=393611 http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=376596 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 13, 2012 Report Share Posted June 13, 2012 Sorry about being late to this party. I agree that elbows can be difficult to land, but they should be. A punch connects much easier than an elbow does. That said, I mix it up with my clinch guy and can't complain about the accuracy of his striking. http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=441411 http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=426458 http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=416453 http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=403279 http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=393611 http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=376596 Well, everything lands when you completely outmatch the opponent. I really dont see how you want to base balance on completely lopsided matchups. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeadlyDirk Posted June 13, 2012 Report Share Posted June 13, 2012 This is the most recent one I think http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=431698 , started avoiding clinch since then, older ones: http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=427383 , http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=390403 , http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=410775 . My main observation is that once a fighter starts landing, it suddenly turns into a totally one sided business Yeh that's actually interesting because I fought the same guy and had some success in the clinch by mixing in elbows and knees, admittedly it was a few months before your fight so he probably improved since then. Managed to land a few elbows and knees on him well landing a lot more punches. http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=413649 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 13, 2012 Report Share Posted June 13, 2012 Yeh that's actually interesting because I fought the same guy and had some success in the clinch by mixing in elbows and knees, admittedly it was a few months before your fight so he probably improved since then. Managed to land a few elbows and knees on him well landing a lot more punches. http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=413649 I still have absolutely no idea what happened in that match - he doesnt have better stats (well not significantly anyways, tbh odds are I did outstat him) and Iv never seen anything like that happen to me before or after. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasman Posted June 13, 2012 Report Share Posted June 13, 2012 This one is a great example as the fighters got very similar id and probably similar training (at least my guy spent first 2 years in public gyms): http://www.mmatycoon...php?FTID=381223 , yes elbows and knees made you very closely win the clinch, but at the cost of getting destroyed in striking by better primaries and physicals. Not at all, he just got beat by a much better fighter and by no means are his hiddens good. But his clinchgame is good because it's diverse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajperok Posted June 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 13, 2012 Again... why does a guy with Proficient Punches,Wonderful Boxing and Sensational Muay Thai, Sensational Elbows... land more punches in the Clinch than elbows? If people don't see that as an issue, they looking at the wrong information. 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasman Posted June 13, 2012 Report Share Posted June 13, 2012 Again... why does a guy with Proficient Punches,Wonderful Boxing and Sensational Muay Thai, Sensational Elbows... land more punches in the Clinch than elbows? If people don't see that as an issue, they looking at the wrong information. Isn't that a fact in RL too? Punches both out throw and out land elbows in mos t cases. It's nto a smart clinch slider setting to be overly aggressive with the elbows, make them count. The best setting for punches isn't the same as the best setting fro Elbows. Therefore there should be more variety in the available sliders for the clinch imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soyster89 Posted June 14, 2012 Report Share Posted June 14, 2012 Well, everything lands when you completely outmatch the opponent. I really dont see how you want to base balance on completely lopsided matchups. Didn't think this one was lopsided at all. http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=441411 Sorry man, was just trying to help. Carry on with your typical douche-baggery. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavyJones Posted June 14, 2012 Report Share Posted June 14, 2012 Again... why does a guy with Proficient Punches,Wonderful Boxing and Sensational Muay Thai, Sensational Elbows... land more punches in the Clinch than elbows? If people don't see that as an issue, they looking at the wrong information. I don't find it that strange to be honest, I consider elbows, knees and kicks all to be supplemental attacks not a primary ones no matter how skilled you are in them. Higher skill just means they are more effective when they do connect it doesn't necessarily mean its better to throw more of them than punches. That's a poor game plan IMO. Its best to be well rounded and mixing it up, but punches will always be the primary weapon. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 14, 2012 Report Share Posted June 14, 2012 Didn't think this one was lopsided at all. http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=441411 Sorry man, was just trying to help. Carry on with your typical douche-baggery. sens/elite/wond vs wond/wond/sens in primaries? Or you are saying your guy doesnt have corresponding secondaries/physicals to his primaries? Because the other guy shows powerful on ToT, which pretty much means his physicals suck as he doesnt even have the cardio up. The key thing is that you were both using punches/knees/elbows. If both use it, it is bloody obvious someone is gonna win using them so the telling value is none. Please enlighted me what that match is supposed to show me. I really would like to get shown/convinced that knees/elbows are useful, especially since most of my guys have knees and I regret that almost every fight, but so far out of all the matches everyone posted there has been 1 where they were useful and had some telling value. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradigm Posted June 15, 2012 Report Share Posted June 15, 2012 if elbows are completely useless, then can somebody explain the success of this guy in my org? http://www.mmatycoon.com/fighterprofilepublic.php?FID=161638 outclassed on primaries for most of his career, yet... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBR Posted June 15, 2012 Report Share Posted June 15, 2012 my guess it that most fighters elbows are much lower than the other fighters clinchwork and striking d -- thus making them not land that much -- i mean say strong or superb elbows are blown out the water by sensational to elite striking d and clinchwork 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBR Posted June 15, 2012 Report Share Posted June 15, 2012 sens/elite/wond vs wond/wond/sens in primaries? Or you are saying your guy doesnt have corresponding secondaries/physicals to his primaries? Because the other guy shows powerful on ToT, which pretty much means his physicals suck as he doesnt even have the cardio up. The key thing is that you were both using punches/knees/elbows. If both use it, it is bloody obvious someone is gonna win using them so the telling value is none. Please enlighted me what that match is supposed to show me. I really would like to get shown/convinced that knees/elbows are useful, especially since most of my guys have knees and I regret that almost every fight, but so far out of all the matches everyone posted there has been 1 where they were useful and had some telling value. you can look at http://www.mmatycoon.com/fighterprofilemanager.php?FID=103732 fights -- he has had great success with knees and elbows in every fight where he used them http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=316116 Clinchwork Head punch: 28 (16) Body punch: 8 (7) Elbow: 8 (1) Knee head: 10 (5) Knee body: 10 (7) Takedowns: 0 (0) http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=336140 Clinchwork Head punch: 54 (31) Body punch: 19 (15) Elbow: 17 (12) Knee head: 9 (2) Knee body: 9 (4) Takedowns: 0 (0) http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=349875 Clinchwork Head punch: 5 (5) Body punch: 1 (1) Elbow: 2 (2) Knee head: 1 (1) Knee body: 0 (0) Takedowns: 0 (0) http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=353732 Clinchwork Head punch: 16 (16) Body punch: 9 (9) Elbow: 7 (7) Knee head: 1 (1) Knee body: 5 (5) Takedowns: 0 (0) http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=353933 Clinchwork Head punch: 12 (12) Body punch: 4 (3) Elbow: 1 (1) Knee head: 1 (0) Knee body: 2 (2) Takedowns: 0 (0) http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=366506 Clinchwork Head punch: 1 (0) Body punch: 0 (0) Elbow: 1 (0) Knee head: 1 (1) Knee body: 2 (1) Takedowns: 0 (0) http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=370250 Clinchwork Head punch: 9 (9) Body punch: 2 (2) Elbow: 0 (0) Knee head: 1 (1) Knee body: 1 (1) Takedowns: 0 (0) http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=370296 Clinchwork Head punch: 0 (0) Body punch: 1 (1) Elbow: 1 (1) Knee head: 0 (0) Knee body: 0 (0) Takedowns: 0 (0) http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=390437 Clinchwork Head punch: 6 (6) Body punch: 2 (0) Elbow: 3 (3) Knee head: 3 (2) Knee body: 4 (4) Takedowns: 0 (0) http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=429216 Clinchwork Head punch: 0 (0) Body punch: 0 (0) Elbow: 0 (0) Knee head: 1 (1) Knee body: 0 (0) Takedowns: 0 (0) http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=460248 Clinchwork Head punch: 0 (0) Body punch: 2 (1) Elbow: 0 (0) Knee head: 2 (1) Knee body: 1 (0) Takedowns: 0 (0) 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loveladdy Posted June 15, 2012 Report Share Posted June 15, 2012 In all honesty PBR that shows nothing more than the fact that punches are the better weapon which is what is being argued by all those who are resisting. You barely used knees or elbow: 177 punches thrown out of all those fights, 121 landed. 40 elbows thrown, 27 landed. 64 knees thrown, 35 landed. " he has had great success with knees and elbows in every fight where he used them". I would have to call B.S. on this one, you proved everyone who is saying that punches have to much power and that MT is basically useless by comparison with these stats. You can see clearly that elbows and knees are basically useless next to punches, and that is what this thread is all about. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loveladdy Posted June 15, 2012 Report Share Posted June 15, 2012 If elbows are completely useless, then can somebody explain the success of this guy in my org? http://www.mmatycoon.com/fighterprofilepublic.php?FID=161638 outclassed on primaries for most of his career, yet... W Dingo Monster TKO (Cut) 1 05:54 (3-3-0) 11398 L Hagen Germanicus TKO (Cut) 3 04:58 (13-4-0) 685 W Steve Tompkins TKO (Cut) 1 01:50 (8-2-0) 2877 W Joseph Mageramsky Decision (Unanimous) 3 05:00 (12-6-0) 3009 W Naser Al Shami TKO (Cut) 1 02:35 (6-3-0) 6077 W January Kwiecinski TKO (Cut) 1 02:26 (2-4-0) 9235 W Jay McGrady TKO (Cut) 1 03:37 (2-1-0) 0 W Amadeus Brabus Submission (Strikes) 1 03:53 (1-1-0) 0 W Lars Andersson TKO (Cut) 2 00:43 (0-1-0) 0 Total record Adjusted record (47-25-0) (46-17-0) I would say his bottom level competition answers why he has been so successful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBR Posted June 15, 2012 Report Share Posted June 15, 2012 In all honesty PBR that shows nothing more than the fact that punches are the better weapon which is what is being argued by all those who are resisting. You barely used knees or elbow: 177 punches thrown out of all those fights, 121 landed. 40 elbows thrown, 27 landed. 64 knees thrown, 35 landed. " he has had great success with knees and elbows in every fight where he used them". I would have to call B.S. on this one, you proved everyone who is saying that punches have to much power and that MT is basically useless by comparison with these stats. You can see clearly that elbows and knees are basically useless next to punches, and that is what this thread is all about. you missed my post above it though -- those numbers are still great success to me -- compared to the skill level his punches are at -- most probably have their punches skill level 4 to 5 levels higher than elbows or knees --- those stats are with elite+ punches - remarkable elbows and wonderful knees ---- so of course he is gonna land punches easier than the elbows and knees -- now if he had elite+ elbows and knees they would land at a better rate -- i think your missing that point edited: also if you raise those number of elbows and knees compared to the amount of punches the numbers are pretty close 177 punches thrown out of all those fights, 121 landed. 40 elbows thrown, 27 landed. 64 knees thrown, 35 landed. example 40 elbows thrown 27 landed would be x4 = 160 thrown 108 landed 64 knees thrown 35 landed would be x3 = 192 thrown 105 landed ------- the numbers are not that far off from the punch numbers again as i say look at the difference in the skill level also 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marioufc420 Posted June 15, 2012 Report Share Posted June 15, 2012 Lol everyone always complains when they can't succeed at a certain aspect of the game, or if everything doesn't happen exactly how they expect/want it to happen. I see no problem with knees and elbows, In fact i finished my last fight while using basically only knees... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loveladdy Posted June 15, 2012 Report Share Posted June 15, 2012 Its not a complaint, simply an observation. Thanks for clarifying PBR.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBR Posted June 15, 2012 Report Share Posted June 15, 2012 Its not a complaint, simply an observation. Thanks for clarifying PBR.. i didnt post that to act like you were complaining was more to show that i dont think most are taking the difference between their skill levels into consideration -- im willing to say most probably have sensational to elite punches with superb to wonderful knees and elbows -- thats a big skill difference so it only makes sense they will land more punches than elbows or knees -- now maybe what needs looked at is the rate of power knees and elbows are thrown with -- cause knees are more powerful than punches -- but thats another discussion 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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