Is it possible IRL to have a brown/black belt with purely defensive skills?

[Guest]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zemX8MNx-IM&noredirect=1

[Guest]

In real life it is not possible to get a Brown or Black belt o even a purple without having any submission offense. But throughout MMA history i can count well over 100 high ranked browns and blacks who either suck at MMA submissions, have never used them, or never look to use them so they pretty much dont exist once they step into a real fight away from the grappling mats and often without the GI.

 

Most of you MMA wrestlers have the equavilant of a Brown or Black belt in BJJ wether they have been awared a belt or not. A Prime Tito Oriz for example. Wanderlei Silva has a black belt and has only 1 submission his entire career ad hat was 12 years ago against a pure striker who has been submited 10 times. Ricardo Arona is one of the best grapplers in the world and i Black belt but has 2 submissions his entire MMA career and 1 was verses a guy in his first and only MMA fight. Vitor Belfort had his black belt before he ever fought MMA. Yet after 30 fights he has 3 submissions in his career and one of those was fake. Joe Charles was his training partner so they agreed not to fight.

 

Most of your strikers and Wrestlers train BJJ solely for defensive purposes. Lots of them are considered black belt level. Few i would consider useless submissions even if they dont look for them in fights.

[Guest]

He may have trained them and he may know tons of submissions, but to say he's skilled in submissions? I'm not saying you don't have to know submissions and have trained submissions but there's no black belt challenge that says you have to submit a gracie. You just have to go through the certain training and have the knowledge needed.

 

 

To be a black belt you have to be able to hang with and beat other black belts. That would require submiting black belts. Silva is a black belt and im sure in BJJ is very good with subs. But the dont fit his fightign style in MMA. HE looked very efficient from his back and going for armbars on Olympic Judoka Yoshida in their fight. But like Cardiff said belts are subjective. Joe Moreira was well known to just give belts away back in the day. Kimo Leopoldo has a black belt under Joe. Some Gracies are known to be very dificult to get a belt from. Sometimes a Gracie Blue belt would be a high level purple or sometimes a brown belt in other systems. This really helps in compeitions and considered sandbagging by many.

 

Matt Serra wasnt just a black belt he was a world champion. He beat other black belts in comps. But when it come to MMA he was below average. His BJJ due to his body type didnt transfer over. He got a sub over a bum in his first UFC fight and never submited anyone again in his UFC career.

[Guest]

To be a black belt you have to be able to hang with and beat other black belts. That would require submiting black belts.

 

I don't know about that. I already trained with some brown belts that has a tremendously great defensive grappling skills but not that much offense submission skills, and they just do great in bjj championship. I mean they weren't able to submit purple belts in gym, but they weren't submited for a black belt as well, due to their fightin style (more defensive, just trying not to make mistakes and trying some advanced position when they have a chance), and they won almost all fights by points. Damm, I already saw one black belt been champion only scoring one takedown, then fight on top just defending against submissions and sweps, sometimes judge decided for a stand up, he scored another takedown and then same strategy. Won four fights just fighting like that.

 

I really think there are some brown and even black belts jiu-jitsu fighters who are something like Sensational or even Elite in defensive grappling, but only Competent in submission (comparing the real life with mma tycoon skills). They know a lot of submissions positions but they just don't apply it very well against fighters who has good defensive skills, so they just fight to win by points. Comparing mma tycoon skills with real life, we cannot say that been brwon or black belt they would be at least wonderfull or exceptional in submission offense, because if that were true then they definitely would submit purple, brown or even black belts often, wich is not the case for the fighters I mentioned before.

 

PS: I don't like fighter who has this fight style, I'm just saying that they do exist and even can achieve very good results in tournaments.

[dcm]

I don't know about that. I already trained with some brown belts that has a tremendously great defensive grappling skills but not that much offense submission skills, and they just do great in bjj championship. I mean they weren't able to submit purple belts in gym, but they weren't submited for a black belt as well, due to their fightin style (more defensive, just trying not to make mistakes and trying some advanced position when they have a chance), and they won almost all fights by points. Damm, I already saw one black belt been champion only scoring one takedown, then fight on top just defending against submissions and sweps, sometimes judge decided for a stand up, he scored another takedown and then same strategy. Won four fights just fighting like that.

 

I really think there are some brown and even black belts jiu-jitsu fighters who are something like Sensational or even Elite in defensive grappling, but only Competent in submission (comparing the real life with mma tycoon skills). They know a lot of submissions positions but they just don't apply it very well against fighters who has good defensive skills, so they just fight to win by points. Comparing mma tycoon skills with real life, we cannot say that been brwon or black belt they would be at least wonderfull or exceptional in submission offense, because if that were true then they definitely would submit purple, brown or even black belts often, wich is not the case for the fighters I mentioned before.

 

PS: I don't like fighter who has this fight style, I'm just saying that they do exist and even can achieve very good results in tournaments.

 

I agree with you, almost 100%.

However, there is something I have to add to the topic as well. I've been training BJJ for 2 years, and I'm a blue belt, I've seen a lot of tournaments and joined quite a few. There are black belts and black belts, if you know what I mean.

I've seen black belts losing for blue ones, not for a lucky attempt that got him unprepared (as happened to me lol), but really for being better than them. Unfortunately some guys gain the belt without deserving it, without being prepared for it. Yet these guys aren't complete useless, even the worse ones can't be defeated by a raw blue couple times in a row (by raw I mean someone who just got a blue belt). Even a bad black belt has some skills, but usually a guy who is terrible at submissions will also be terrible at defensive grappling. When you train to defend yourself, you learn the submissions together. You might not be good at them, but you will know how to utilize them.

Comparing to MMATycoon, I'd say that someone with sensational defensive grappling would have at least superb submission offense (enough to submit several blue belts and maybe some purple ones). If a black belt is a complete useless at submission, he won't be good in defensive grappling as well.

 

Btw, we have to be careful to compare BJJ with No Gi. It's really, really different and not all BJJ fighters find the transition easy. In No Gi, all the belts become closer and the gap between levels becomes smaller. If you add the possibility of being punched while trying to work your ground game, it affects the confidence of a black belt to fight MMA going for submissions, even if he is good at it. Look at Toquinho, he lost a fight in the ground being much better at BJJ than his opponent.

[Guest]

The again just because they dont use them doesnt mean they dont have them. Arona is a points fighter in MMA and BJJ but he clearly is a threat vrses the right guy when he makes up his mind to take the risk. You just dont see top submissions in MMA anymore at the top level unless there is a big mismatch. Its rare. Its not because people cant do them its just not worth the risk to give up dominant position. But back to the point. by almost any standards in BJJ you have to be able to hang at that level to be at that level. It also requires you to be able to demonstrate almost all BJJ moves. Dont forget that Brown and Black belts are also teachers. They are able to promote others up to Brown Belt and later Black belt. Now i dont mean to suggest there isnt frauds out there. But for the most part most Black Belts know the submission game inside an out. They have to even if they choose not to use it. One of my former assistant coaches as a brown and a black belt wasnt big on flashy submissions. He was a big guy. 300 lbs. On the bottom he would never look for subs because it wasnt a good idea for his build and style. HE would look for sweeps. From the top he looks for chokes and arm locks. At the same time we had purple belts ala the Diaz brothers who were submission machines from their backs. The black belt can demonstrate any move. He can teach it as good as anyone. People forget that BJJ ws created as a art adapted to Helios body type. All my instructors have always preached to adapt BJJ to you. Not all Black Belts will be able to be bottom submissions machines. Some of th elanky guys will never be top control beasts. But it doesnt mean they dont know the techniques or are useless. Most ar eusing BJJ the way it was meant to be used. Roy Nelson is a Black Belt but you will never see him looking for a trianlge from the bottom. But he is a legit black belt. IMO most differences in BJJ is physical ability rather than lack of BJJ skill. I would say except for te rare occassion every black belt is at least wonderful level in submissions. But muck like this game if you guy has crappy physicals and you made him 5 feet tall and 400 lbs you cant expec to land triangles from the bottom even if your skill was elite across the board.

[Guest]

I agree with you, almost 100%.

However, there is something I have to add to the topic as well. I've been training BJJ for 2 years, and I'm a blue belt, I've seen a lot of tournaments and joined quite a few. There are black belts and black belts, if you know what I mean.

I've seen black belts losing for blue ones, not for a lucky attempt that got him unprepared (as happened to me lol), but really for being better than them. Unfortunately some guys gain the belt without deserving it, without being prepared for it. Yet these guys aren't complete useless, even the worse ones can't be defeated by a raw blue couple times in a row (by raw I mean someone who just got a blue belt). Even a bad black belt has some skills, but usually a guy who is terrible at submissions will also be terrible at defensive grappling. When you train to defend yourself, you learn the submissions together. You might not be good at them, but you will know how to utilize them.

Comparing to MMATycoon, I'd say that someone with sensational defensive grappling would have at least superb submission offense (enough to submit several blue belts and maybe some purple ones). If a black belt is a complete useless at submission, he won't be good in defensive grappling as well.

 

Btw, we have to be careful to compare BJJ with No Gi. It's really, really different and not all BJJ fighters find the transition easy. In No Gi, all the belts become closer and the gap between levels becomes smaller. If you add the possibility of being punched while trying to work your ground game, it affects the confidence of a black belt to fight MMA going for submissions, even if he is good at it. Look at Toquinho, he lost a fight in the ground being much better at BJJ than his opponent.

 

 

agree with this. Something else people dont realize is a belt rank is often misleading. When you get the belt you keep that belt. I have never heard of anyone bein demoted in belt rank. We had a Brown belt who left to open his own school in his home town after he finished college. for 3-4 years all he had to train with was new students who walked off the streets. Needless to say when he come back to visit and attend a siminar. Everyone in the room was wiping the floor with him. At that point he did not have Brown belt skill because the situation he was in but still had Brown belt rank. Soon after he started coming in regularly to train with the other browns and black and is now a legit black belt. You never really know how serious someone has been training. I have seen guys get to a belt they have wanted for a long time and basically half ass train after that. But they are technically still lebeled as having tha belt. They enter comps and get smoked because they got complacent and dont have the drive to train like they did when they were gunning for that belt.

 

But ideally a black belt requires you to be a high level in all areas. But due to that rank not having rules to assure you are that level at all times. Crazy things happen. So right now Black Belt means you know everything but not always mean you can put it nto practice. This is why there is a lot of very old black belts out there but their rank doesnt mean they can compete with a 25 year old black belt.

 

But i think we are getting a little off topic here. As for the question OP asked. Is it possible to have a black belt with useless submissions? I dont believe it is. But it is possible to get a black belt in MMA who appears to be useless due to styles, body types, ruls, game plan, and preference.

[Manfred]

Just because you don't see some RL fighters with BBs going after subs, doesn't mean they don't know how or have 'useless sub offense'

 

When you test for belt promotion, you have to show proficiency in techniques, including submissions, sweeps and escapes.

 

Just for BLUE belt (in the official Gracie JJ Blue belt test) you get tested on 10 different submissions including RNC, Americana, Triangle, Kimura and so on.

 

Cro Cop is a good example. He's a Brown or Purple under Werdum. I'm pretty sure Werdum would ensure CC had submission offense before giving awarding those

[jacky67]

it is: gayshad

[Dee]

It's a shame we have to display our fighters level of ground grappling skills in BJJ belt colors really. Seems like it confuses a lot of ppl.

[Guest]

Mike Pyle is someone i always refered to as having wonderful sub offense but mediocre sub defense. He will flip around going for sub after sub and look like a beast on the ground then get against someone decent and flip around and get caught in a sub almost every time. You see lots of uys liek this who are very good BJJ guys up to a curtain point. But the high level guys are so many steps ahead of them. Theyare great at the basics adn can catch low level guys. But the high level guys are able to defend and their subs and transitions are far to advanced. Often you will see a guys make a career out of being a submission guys has like a dozen sub wins but also a half dozen sub losses.