UFC 151 canceled because Jones is a pussy

[Guest]

I dont know to many people who get 500-1000 starting out. The guys in my gym had good records and some where in their first fight and some werent. All fo them got 200/200. This was a King of the Cage in 2004. Maybe it has gone up. But i dont see anyone getting 1,000 for their first fight. The 200/200 was actually high at the time but our gym had connections. Most local shows the main event is lucky to get a couple grand. It isnt easy in MMA or Boxing to make a 1,000 per fight. You would have to be at least decent and be able to be a headliner of a small show or a main card of adecent size show. I would say maybe 10% of the people who ever have an MMA fight in their life would actually make that much in a single fight. So i wouldnt cll that easy. In fact i would say it was less than 10%. Even if you fight once per month. That isnt a lot of money.

[Guest]

BTW i was talking about people making a career out of it by being good not by being bad. Even the ones who end up being a human punching bag in boxing im sure had legit intentions to com pete when they started in the sport. But didnt progress and then end up taking money to be a feeder on some cherry pickers record.

[toejam98]

He got rocked but not ko, so if anything it shows his chin is fine. I never said hes in his prime but hes been fighting great vs very good competition

[rac2]

Name one title fight that had a change of opponent at one week's notice in the Zuffa era of UFC? I don't think it's ever happened since they quit with the tournament format and making fights on the night. Some guys take last minute fights, some don't. Being the champion means you should never duck a fight, it doesn't mean you should take a fight that you feel puts you at an unfair disadvantage. This is most certainly not a duck. Now on this topic I don't see why Jones would feel at a disadvantage with this particular fight personally, Sonnen is basically Henderson but with a better double and no power whatsoever in his hands. I'd have been way more worried about fighting Hendo, and personally I think Jones would crush Sonnen if he had 2 broken arms, but whatever. The bottom line is he wasn't happy with a late change in opponent for whatever reason so he declined it.

 

All the other crap with the card dying isn't his problem or his fault. The UFC have had fights fall off loads of times recently without it being such a big deal, but they got burned this time because they went super cheap on the undercard fights. That's 100% their own fault. They know the deal with fighters getting injured and they didn't have a backup plan. It's Jones' job to defend his title in the correct manner, not to bail the UFC out by putting himself at a disadvantage or into an uncomfortable situation.

 

The UFC have no grounds whatsoever to void Jones' contract and they would be sued to fuck if they tried it. Jones' lawyers would simply point out the UFC were the one's who broke contract with regards to the UFC 151 breakdown and they were unjustly punishing Jones as a result.

 

Morally, from the "bad ass fighter, anyone, anytime, anywhere" mentality where the guy with the belt should fight all comers whenever they come I can definitely see where you're coming from and to an extent I agree with you. From the point of view of a professional athlete and a business person, Jones has done absolutely nothing wrong. Both points of view are relevant. Some guys are happy to take late notice fights, others aren't. It's just one of those things, and the UFC's attempts to throw one of their main money makers under the bus for their massive errors in match making and promoting on the rest of the card are horrible.

 

For the record I don't actually like Jones and really wanted Henderson to take his head off. But fairness is fairness, and he's getting a lot of shit that he isn't due for this.

 

And on the topic of "nobody declines last minute fights", 3 Light Heavyweights declined this fight before Sonnen was offered it!

 

this.

 

there are two different mindsets in this discussion and i think both are valid. when jones smashes vitor i really think we won't be talking about this any longer. maybe we will still be talking a bit about it, but after a couple of events, it will be all about his performances. that's why i lean forward to the "being professional" mindset but i can see the point in the others' arguments.

 

nevertheless, i really don't think jones is the one to blame when it comes to the cancellation of the event. that's totally on the ufc.

[Guest]

He got rocked but not ko, so if anything it shows his chin is fine. I never said hes in his prime but hes been fighting great vs very good competition

 

Well I never said his chin was bad. Only that it has decline from what it used to be which is true and what you were arguing with.

[jacky67]

this.

 

there are two different mindsets in this discussion and i think both are valid. when jones smashes vitor i really think we won't be talking about this any longer. maybe we will still be talking a bit about it, but after a couple of events, it will be all about his performances. that's why i lean forward to the "being professional" mindset but i can see the point in the others' arguments.

 

nevertheless, i really don't think jones is the one to blame when it comes to the cancellation of the event. that's totally on the ufc.

 

So if every fighters decline their fights it's not their fault it's ufc fault ?

 

Retard logic.

[Guest]

So if every fighters decline their fights it's not their fault it's ufc fault ?

 

Retard logic.

Jones isn't the only person to be blame. The UFC should house some of that blame. You can't build a card just around two guys. But don't worry jones will end up paying for declining the fight. Just ask couture, Vera and other guys who has decline fights what happens to them after.

[toejam98]

I just dont think theres anything to show that his chin is declining except the fact hes getting older

[Guest]

So if every fighters decline their fights it's not their fault it's ufc fault ?

 

Retard logic.

I don't get your point. If it can't get anybody to agree to fights they're probably doing something wrong. They shouldn't exist because they can't set up events. And that's pretty much their task. It's the fighter's responsibility to watch out for his best interest and it's the promoter's responsibility to watch out for it's best interest. It's not like the UFC often compromises. They're pretty unforgiving. It's fascinating how it's considered normal when a corporation does it, but a crime when a person does it.

[xanax]

holy shit, this whole time i was thinking jones vs. belfort was gonna save 151, just saw on fueltv the card's cancelled and they will fight at ufc152. what a fucking shame. i feel genuinely bad for those other fighters who lost their pay due to jones being a douche. i admit i was a bit harder on the ufc at first and jones not so much, but damn. this is sad.

[Guest]

I don't get your point. If it can't get anybody to agree to fights they're probably doing something wrong. They shouldn't exist because they can't set up events. And that's pretty much their task. It's the fighter's responsibility to watch out for his best interest and it's the promoter's responsibility to watch out for it's best interest. It's not like the UFC often compromises. They're pretty unforgiving. It's fascinating how it's considered normal when a corporation does it, but a crime when a person does it.

 

Pretty simple. Ones easily replaced and the other isnt. As for the fighting. It isnt the fighters responsibility to look out for his best interest when it comes to taking fights. That is what created the cesspool that is boxing. It is the fighters job to fight who he is told to fight by his employer. Thats what he is paid to do. He is employed as a fighter. Not match maker not promoter and not financial and career stratagist. When you allow fighters to pick what fights are best for them you turn the entire sport into a joke and remove almost every aspect of competiton. Every fight, belt, record, etc would be meaningless. Have you ever seen Jason Reinhardt fight? While looking out for his best interest he was able to "manage" himself into an 18-0 record. When he lost the ability to pick his fights he was crushed 3 times in the UFC by mid level fighters. IMO this is the most important aspect of the sport that the UFC should never give up control of. This is why we get to see the fights we want almost before we even want to see them.

 

If i was the UFC i would tell Jones. "Fine you dont have to fight in 8 days. You tell me when you want to fight next. You will be fighting Chael next. It can be in 8 days, 3 months, or 5 years. But that is who you are fighting. After that maybe Machida, then Gustaffson. No more gifts. No more jack of all trades fighters with little athletic ability. We brought you along slowly and allowed you a road tot he top with least resistance. You will fight the best. No more stearing you around bad style fights. You will earn your place!"

 

People seem to forget there has only been 1 fighters to avoid another fighter with a passion in the history of the UFC. That was Tito Ortiz ducking Chuck Liddel for years. Everyone knew why he was ducking him. Then when the fight happened we saw first hand why he didnt want the fight. Luckily due to the UFC we got to see the fight. Otherwise Tito would have NEVER fought Chuck.

[Guest]

Brain I didn't read all your blabber. And quite honestly I don't think that anybody does. Who wants to spend time reading half a book of nonsense per post? On your first three sentences:

 

Pretty simple. Ones easily replaced and the other isnt.

If fighters were so easily replaced the event wouldn't have been cancelled. The fighters are all that matters. Nobody gives a shit about who promotes the event. If the UFC dissolves another organization will take over the next week.

 

It is the fighters job to fight who he is told to fight by his employer. Thats what he is paid to do. He is employed as a fighter. Not match maker not promoter and not financial and career stratagist.

Actually his job is to fight whoever he agreed to fight. That's what he's paid to do. If he doesn't follow his agreement then he doesn't get paid. I agree that he isn't a promoter and event planner. That's the UFC. I hope they do a better job next time and actually provide the service they promise.

[jacky67]

Brain I didn't read all your blabber. And quite honestly I don't think that anybody does. Who wants to spend time reading half a book of nonsense per post? On your first three sentences:

 

 

If fighters were so easily replaced the event wouldn't have been cancelled. The fighters are all that matters. Nobody gives a shit about who promotes the event. If the UFC dissolves another organization will take over the next week.

 

 

Actually his job is to fight whoever he agreed to fight. That's what he's paid to do. If he doesn't follow his agreement then he doesn't get paid. I agree that he isn't a promoter and event planner. That's the UFC. I hope they do a better job next time and actually provide the service they promise.

come on steeve , they can find 20 bums in the street that fight better than jones in LHW.

[Guest]

Brain I didn't read all your blabber. And quite honestly I don't think that anybody does. Who wants to spend time reading half a book of nonsense per post? On your first three sentences:

 

 

If fighters were so easily replaced the event wouldn't have been cancelled. The fighters are all that matters. Nobody gives a shit about who promotes the event. If the UFC dissolves another organization will take over the next week.

 

 

Actually his job is to fight whoever he agreed to fight. That's what he's paid to do. If he doesn't follow his agreement then he doesn't get paid. I agree that he isn't a promoter and event planner. That's the UFC. I hope they do a better job next time and actually provide the service they promise.

 

 

The event was canceled because the UFC built a bum of a pussy. It doesnt change the fact the fighters are replaceable. That has been proven over and over again. Pulver, Penn, Busta, Barnett, Couture, etc all champions who oleft the UFC or was kicked out. They plug another one in and fans only know what is pulled over their eyes. So the UFC marched on like always and didnt skip a beat. Jones screwed them for this event. But in the ned they can kick him to the curb and people will assume whoever the UFC has holding that belt is the best. It might take a month or it might take 2 years. But it happens and always will. No matter the size of the UFC pond. Someone has to be the bigger fish in it. With the UFC brand and their promotion and hype machine they can make anyone appear to be great. Hell they did it with Brock Lesnar. But without the UFC the fighters are nothing. Any you are retarded if you think another organization would take the UFC's place. The UFC has success because they have the brand name that is embeded in the publics mind for almost 20 years. No other promotion has a chance. In fact as big as the sport has grown non of thother Promotions gets any ratings and make very little money. I would continue to shoot down your commie attitude and comment but this post is getting kind of long and i dont want to over load your little brain.

[DeadlyDirk]

I don't always agree with what BrainSmasher says but pretty much everything he has said in here related to fighters, matchmaking, ducking etc is true.

 

Fighters are employees who need to shut up and fight not start cherry picking who and when they fight so much.

 

MMA is starting to go the same way as Boxing in some aspects which is not a good thing. Again as Brainsmasher said they're are few fighters left these days, now we're left with 'Mixed martial artists' an athletes, they are no doubt more talented than some of the old vets due to how fast the sport has evolved but many of them just don't have the same fighting attitude which is what I loved about the sport originally, I guess I'm one of the brutes that enjoyed the human cock fighting that they moved away from to make the sport more 'legit' and appeal to the mainstream/governing bodies.

[DougSupreme]

I don't always agree with what BrainSmasher says but pretty much everything he has said in here related to fighters, matchmaking, ducking etc is true.

 

Fighters are employees who need to shut up and fight not start cherry picking who and when they fight so much.

 

MMA is starting to go the same way as Boxing in some aspects which is not a good thing. Again as Brainsmasher said they're are few fighters left these days, now we're left with 'Mixed martial artists' an athletes, they are no doubt more talented than some of the old vets due to how fast the sport has evolved but many of them just don't have the same fighting attitude which is what I loved about the sport originally, I guess I'm one of the brutes that enjoyed the human cock fighting that they moved away from to make the sport more 'legit' and appeal to the mainstream/governing bodies.

 

It would be one thing if he was offered a fight 8 weeks out, heck maybe even 3-4 weeks out, but Jones was training for a specific type of opponent and had signed a contract to fight THAT SPECIFIC OPPONENT on that date. If that can't happen, then how is it HIS fault? I agree that it would have been great if he had accepted the fight, but he didn't, nor was he required to. It also would have been nice if the UFC hadn't spread themselves so thin and had to let the integrity of the card rest on one fight. Now, that being said, I think Jones could have handled the whole situation differently. Especially considering his recent tweets implying that it's Hendo's fault for getting hurt.

 

In the end, if the UFC hadn't held so many events and diluted the pool of available fighters, they wouldn't be in this mess.

 

http://vigilantemma.com/2012/08/29/pat-miletich-on-ufc-151-jones-not-to-blame-ufc-handled-it-poorly/

[Guest]

I don't always agree with what BrainSmasher says but pretty much everything he has said in here related to fighters, matchmaking, ducking etc is true.

 

Fighters are employees who need to shut up and fight not start cherry picking who and when they fight so much.

I've said before that Jones' arguments for not taking the fight don't make any sense to me. If you ask me it has more to do with Jackson's ego than anything. If Jones would take a fight on 8 days notice and demolish Sonnen, which I think would've been the outcome, then nobody would've been able to give credit to Jackson for masterminding an amazing gameplan. So he goes out and says ridiculous things as "It would be the biggest mistake of his career" as if to say that he couldn't do it without him. I think he's afraid for people to find out that they could do it without him. That he only has a very minor role. Nevertheless, no matter how stupid his reasons are for not taking the fight, it's his decision and event planning is not his responsibility.

 

If you agree with a contractor to paint a house for $5000 than you don't expect that contractor to tell you to paint a different house at the last minute. It's not the painter's job. You do what you agree to and if you don't than you don't get paid. And the contractor doesn't have to go to the property owner and tell him that it's the painter's fault that the house didn't get painted. It's his fault. It's his responsibility to the property owner. In the same way it's the UFC's responsibility to the fans to make an event happen. Actually they're even worse. They're like blaming the painter that there's no house. It's ridiculous. And fans just buy it and relieve them from any responsibility.

[Guest]

It would be one thing if he was offered a fight 8 weeks out, heck maybe even 3-4 weeks out, but Jones was training for a specific type of opponent and had signed a contract to fight THAT SPECIFIC OPPONENT on that date. If that can't happen, then how is it HIS fault? I agree that it would have been great if he had accepted the fight, but he didn't, nor was he required to. It also would have been nice if the UFC hadn't spread themselves so thin and had to let the integrity of the card rest on one fight. Now, that being said, I think Jones could have handled the whole situation differently. Especially considering his recent tweets implying that it's Hendo's fault for getting hurt.

 

In the end, if the UFC hadn't held so many events and diluted the pool of available fighters, they wouldn't be in this mess.

 

http://vigilantemma.com/2012/08/29/pat-miletich-on-ufc-151-jones-not-to-blame-ufc-handled-it-poorly/

 

 

There was nothing wrong with the card. Market dictates if the card is worth what they are charging. This fight was highly anticipated. It was selling very well and interest was high. Thats why everyone is so pissed off it isnt happening. That shows the card was fine. Of course it would be great if every card was stacked. I would love MMA to get back to that. But it will take a while because the UFC has to grow the names of the new divisions. BUt when the card is selling then the UFC has no blame. They are allowed to run any card they want and when it sells good it is good business and they are doing their job. They have nothing to apologize for. They did their best to replace the opponent and put Jones out there which is who most were paying to see anyway. Yes Jones didnt have to save the day. But he was expected to do so. Every other fighters have stepped up in the past. Every single fighter has even went out on a limb to claim they dont understand his deicision and they would have fought. Even female fighters say they would have fought. Keep in mind that technically no fighter has to fight ever. Every single one of them could retire the day of the event. They would be within their right to do so. But it would be an epic shitty move. Just because you have the right to do something doesnt mean you should do it. Part of being a fighter, a standard set over many ages, says you man up and fight. The reason he didnt is the same reason he had to be told to check on Machida. He is a self centered prick.

[Guest]

I've said before that Jones' arguments for not taking the fight don't make any sense to me. If you ask me it has more to do with Jackson's ego than anything. If Jones would take a fight on 8 days notice and demolish Sonnen, which I think would've been the outcome, then nobody would've been able to give credit to Jackson for masterminding an amazing gameplan. So he goes out and says ridiculous things as "It would be the biggest mistake of his career" as if to say that he couldn't do it without him. I think he's afraid for people to find out that they could do it without him. That he only has a very role. Nevertheless, no matter how stupid his reasons are for not taking the fight, it's his decision and event planning is not his responsibility.

 

If you agree with a contractor to paint a house for $5000 than you don't expect that contractor to tell you to paint a different house at the last minute. It's not the painter's job. You do what you agree to and if you don't than you don't get paid. And the contractor doesn't have to go to the property owner and tell him that it's the painter's fault that the house didn't get painted. It's his fault. It's his responsibility to the property owner. In the same way it's the UFC's responsibility to the fans to make an event happen. Actually they're even worse. They're like blaming the painter that there's no house. It's ridiculous. And fans just buy it and relieve them from any responsibility.

 

 

I agree with the first part of that. Never thought of that as why Jackson didnt want him fighting. It makes sense too. After Jones beat Bader he was given the Rua title fight because Evans got hurt. The fight was like one month away and Jones was greatful for the fight. He was given a short notice vs a guy who was going to have a very long training camp and was going to fight twice in a month. That being said he is responsible for who represents him. Like Fedor and his management. Both fighters can get their way if they want. If they choose not to then they are just using them as an excuse.

 

Your example doesnt fit the situation. It would be like having a painter under contract for 5 houses. But one of the houses is changed and they say we will pay you the same but all you have to do is pain the door rather than the entire house. It makes no sense not to take the smaller job and get full pay.

[Mentor]

Very dissapointing from Jones

[rac2]

Putting all the Jones/Dana hate aside for a second and looking at the results of the UFC cancellation, one week after everything hit the fan:

 

1) Every single fighter who had his fight cancelled is now fighting on another card. No fighter had to lose a paycheck.

2) UFC 152 is a significantly stronger card now, with two title fights and decent bouts lined up behind that.

3) The LHW title fight won't be a complete farce now. Both fighters will have had time to prepare, and if someone gets demolished, it won't be because of an injury or a terrible matchup (Hendo and Chael, respectively).

4) The UFC is clearer on the risk of a weak card. The fighters are clearer of their position in the company.

 

If anything, the only thing we as fans should be upset about now is that we won't get to see Jones/Hendo, and that was no one's fault. Everything else has worked out.

 

The impression I have is that UFC 151 died the death it needed to.

[Guest]

Fighters still lost some pay. They did get reboked but it was pushed back a month or more. So over their career many of them will have one less fight. Not to mention they now have to wait a very long time to get their pay they shoudl already have had. How would you like it if your boss said "I know its payday but i cant give it to you until next month". I dont think the time between when you were supposed to get paid and actually got paid is going to be to pleasant when deal with bills you have to pay each month or week.

 

 

Lots of fans lost a lot of money on travel and lodging that will not be replaced.

 

Then there is the trickel down effect of the people who work the arena to the people who depend on the crowd of that event for business. I know it was Vegas but it still has effects.

 

I will give you #2. That is always true when you condense 3 cards into 2 cards. The quality goes up.

 

I dont agree the fight would have been a farce. I dont believe Jones would have been effected at all. I believe he was worried. Which is natural when a fighter is used to running a fight and an opponent in their head for 3 months. Fighters will often tel you they have ran the fight in their mind and imagine every possible outcome to be prepared. So its a little scared to jump- in with someone you havent had time to mentally prepare for. But that doesnt mean once you get in the cage it has an effect. Jones fights the way he fights. There isnt much options on how to fight Chael. Im sure he imagine him fighting Chael during their trash talking weeks before. He had an idea how he would fight him then. So he would not have been any different. Chael is always training. So he was in shape and his game plan is always the same for every fighter. The notice wouldnt have effected him either. I do think it is possible a short notice can hurt you. But i think it is extremely rare. I have seen to many guys come in and win big fights with no notice at all. Varner for example pulled off a huge upset. But i have never seen anyone lose a fight due to notice that i expect hem to win anyway. There were a few close ones people they later lost rematches to show it didnt matter. Now it would be different if it was like the old days and Tank Abbott takes a title fght on 3 days notice and got the call while drunk and way out of shape. But even he stepped in and kicked ass for the 8 minutes he had cardio verses Marice Smith.

 

 

I do agree everything is better off. But that said there is still no excuse for what Jones did. I think it was a slap in the fight of the sport. I think it is very sad what our sport has turned into if anyone thinks that his decision was respectable. Its pathetic a fighter, a champion, would do that.

[Eveas]

How would you like it if your boss said "I know its payday but i cant give it to you until next month".

Mine actually says that all the time. For that very reason I plan ahead. If it gets to the point I cannot handle it I move on to another job.

[Guest]

Mine actually says that all the time. For that very reason I plan ahead. If it gets to the point I cannot handle it I move on to another job.

 

They cant do that. They are under contract. I guess they could quit fighting and get a job. But they couldnt take a fight somewhere else.

[DeadlyDirk]

I love how 6 days before he turned it down Jones said he would fight Sonnen in a heartbeat!

 

I didn't know one heartbeat was longer than 8 days!!

 

 

I agree with rac2 that going forward this might even turn out to be a good thing for the UFC. They've never had to cancel an event before, now they know it's possible and have to have better contingency plans in place. If they can start stacking the cards a little more in the future then that's only a good thing for the fans.

 

Fighters and coaches might also think twice before ducking out of a fight knowing they might have the whole blame piled on them!

 

One thing that hasn't changed though is Jon Jones is still a bitch!