Referee Stand Up Frequency

[Rambo]

Inconsistancy with the referee stand ups is realistic, like IRL, they can be rather random but in this game it seems a little too frequent or soon at times. So here's my proposal, not sure how it could be implemented.

 

This will be realistic since orgs have different rules that force refs IRL to stand fighters up quicker or not stand them up at all. Open up the option for orgs when booking an event, just as if they were choosing the amount of fights on the card, ring or cage, etc.

 

Referee Stand Up Frequency

• Often
  
• Occassional
  
• Never
  

 

Often: Would obviously remain the same as it is now, nothing would change, or maybe a small increase. Benefits the striker. Most likely will result in better fight ratings because it doesn't allow for the most successul lay and pray.

Occassional: The frequency of the stand ups would be significantly decreased/balanced.

Never: Refs won't ever stand the fight up. Benefits the grappler. Most likely will result in lower fight ratings due to stalling, lack of action, lay and pray on the ground.

 

 

 

 

Seems reasonable. Not sure if it's possible to code or not.

 

 

Personally, I would also like to see this option for soccer kicks lol, but I think that's been brought up numerous times.

[Warwynd]

I think never is a bit much, but there is perhaps some merit to this.

[PBR]

this is really the only issue to me with ground -- to me they need to be cut in half at least -- just happens way way too often and too quick -- make fighters quit controlling for the stand up and make them escape or grapple for better position to stand -- thats what happens in real life majority of the time

 

this is from a fight recently had -- i got takendown into full mount and next text is ref must be thinking of standing it up

 

http://www.mmatycoon.com/images/fight/takedown.gif

Vanderbeet shoots in for a takedown and gets it. Oh and he's advanced to full mount straight away.

We must be close to a standup if these guys don't pick up the pace.

 

stand ups are horrible -- honestly take downs are okay -- they are hard to get sometimes and makes no sense when your elite wrestler with elite takedowns gets stuffed by remarkable wrestler but makes it down right crazy when you finally get the takedown and gets stood up in 20 secs

[minark]

this is really the only issue to me with ground -- to me they need to be cut in half at least -- just happens way way too often and too quick -- make fighters quit controlling for the stand up and make them escape or grapple for better position to stand -- thats what happens in real life majority of the time

 

this is from a fight recently had -- i got takendown into full mount and next text is ref must be thinking of standing it up

 

http://www.mmatycoon.com/images/fight/takedown.gif

Vanderbeet shoots in for a takedown and gets it. Oh and he's advanced to full mount straight away.

We must be close to a standup if these guys don't pick up the pace.

 

stand ups are horrible -- honestly take downs are okay -- they are hard to get sometimes and makes no sense when your elite wrestler with elite takedowns gets stuffed by remarkable wrestler but makes it down right crazy when you finally get the takedown and gets stood up in 20 secs

 

You hit the nail on the head for me. I hate seeing far superior wrestlers get controlled constantly even when they have a great manager who does well with sliders. I think primary skills need a bit more effect on fights. The same goes with stand up, if a fighter is getting completely dominated in the stand up to a far inferior stand up fighter, then it should only be because the higher skilled fighter has a bad manager who has set a bad strategy for that fighter in many cases. I realize there needs to be cinderella stories and hiddens play a part, but far too many times we see great wrestlers get stuffed by a much inferior skilled wrestler.

 

Also, I think this would be another reason to add an escape skill. Now a fighter who doesn't attempt any escapes and chooses to lay on the mat and hold the other fighter won't get the stand ups. However, a fighter with some form of escapes set can be a little more active in getting off his back. Now if the fight is being stalled by the top fighter and the better fighter is at least making some effort to escape, then stand the fight up.

[Italscratch]

I'll just paste from the other thread solution that came into my mind.

 

...maybe solution toward referee standups should be to calculate (value more) activity of top fighter more then the bottom one, so if bottom fighter just holds on a position and hopes for referee to help him, he could be punished by losing a round. (open to lay and pray abuse, but fuck it those aren't so popular in RL either so could take hit on fighter popularity or fight rating).

 

This would also make standup fighters to invest more in def grappling (or whatever solution to that secondary is, in another thread there was mention of escapes), in order to be more active on the ground to work for that standup (leaving them more open to counter) and draining them more energy by doing so. If failed takedowns are heavily punished via energy drain this could be mirror image of that part of engine, instead of just lying there making aggressor lose enery while you do nothing except looking at ref.

 

Also like the idea that orgs can dictate the frequency of standups. More diverse org setting is always welcome. Even if td are bit fussed and unpredictable, the thing that you get fairly quickly stood up, after you finally got it is pretty irritating.

[Warwynd]

Totally agree with PBR and Minark. PBR's example is only one fight, but I see it all the time. Not just on my fighters. I used to write reviews of events and it happens in about 80% of the fights that hit the ground. GIVE THE FIGHT 2 SECONDS ONE THE GROUND BEFORE STANDING THEM BACK UP! I get so frustrated.

 

On a related note, why is it that even if both fighters are ground fighters and doing a good job on the ground that the fight is only rated in the 30's but even a boring, one-sided stand-up fight gets a 100% rating?

 

Edit: Italscratch posted while I was making my post, but I agree with him as well.

[Rambo]

As for ref stand ups "never" - that would be an org choice. That would also allow for grappling tournaments. I don't see why that shouldn't be an option, since there's promotions/orgs IRL that don't allow the ref to stand the fight up. The often choice would keep things as is, where your guy might get told to stand up in 20 seconds.

 

 

I personally think 30 seconds would be a realistic #, you give it 30 seconds, no less, and bam stand em up if they're just lyin on the ground mat-humping. Now if they're active or make a successful aggressive action i.e. GNP/improving position or attempting subs (fights should never be stood up when fighters are going for subs), and not just missing GNP cuz the other guys holding their arms for dear life, then let em ride out another 20-30 seconds for every successful aggressive action. GNP and advancing position text can be deceiving. Plenty of fighters IRL attempt GNP from the top, and are so unsuccessful at it because they're being controlled by the guy on bottom, that the ref has no choice but to stand them up. we don't really see "Fighter 1 looks like he wants to score with some GNP but he can't get his arms free, fighter 2 is controlling him from his back." we just see missed GNP text, which very well could be the equivalent of a lackluster ground fight.

 

 

And in the UFC - I've seen many questionable stand ups. But they're usually 40 seconds to 2 minutes after the fighters hit the ground.

[Guest]

You hit the nail on the head for me. I hate seeing far superior wrestlers get controlled constantly even when they have a great manager who does well with sliders. I think primary skills need a bit more effect on fights. The same goes with stand up, if a fighter is getting completely dominated in the stand up to a far inferior stand up fighter, then it should only be because the higher skilled fighter has a bad manager who has set a bad strategy for that fighter in many cases. I realize there needs to be cinderella stories and hiddens play a part, but far too many times we see great wrestlers get stuffed by a much inferior skilled wrestler.

 

Also, I think this would be another reason to add an escape skill. Now a fighter who doesn't attempt any escapes and chooses to lay on the mat and hold the other fighter won't get the stand ups. However, a fighter with some form of escapes set can be a little more active in getting off his back. Now if the fight is being stalled by the top fighter and the better fighter is at least making some effort to escape, then stand the fight up.

 

have to agree on this sick of seeing much better wrestlers with better takedowns getting stuffed a lot especially from personal experience

[Warwynd]

As for ref stand ups "never" - that would be an org choice. That would also allow for grappling tournaments. I don't see why that shouldn't be an option, since there's promotions/orgs IRL that don't allow the ref to stand the fight up. The often choice would keep things as is, where your guy might get told to stand up in 20 seconds.

 

 

I personally think 30 seconds would be a realistic #, you give it 30 seconds, no less, and bam stand em up if they're just lyin on the ground mat-humping. Now if they're active or make a successful aggressive action i.e. GNP/improving position or attempting subs (fights should never be stood up when fighters are going for subs), and not just missing GNP cuz the other guys holding their arms for dear life, then let em ride out another 20-30 seconds for every successful aggressive action. GNP and advancing position text can be deceiving. Plenty of fighters IRL attempt GNP from the top, and are so unsuccessful at it because they're being controlled by the guy on bottom, that the ref has no choice but to stand them up. we don't really see "Fighter 1 looks like he wants to score with some GNP but he can't get his arms free, fighter 2 is controlling him from his back." we just see missed GNP text, which very well could be the equivalent of a lackluster ground fight.

 

 

And in the UFC - I've seen many questionable stand ups. But they're usually 40 seconds to 2 minutes after the fighters hit the ground.

 

Fair enough. Over all I agree with you on this anyway. The never stand up fighters option seemed odd at first, but you're right it could allow for some more options.

[minark]

As for ref stand ups "never" - that would be an org choice. That would also allow for grappling tournaments. I don't see why that shouldn't be an option, since there's promotions/orgs IRL that don't allow the ref to stand the fight up. The often choice would keep things as is, where your guy might get told to stand up in 20 seconds.

 

 

I personally think 30 seconds would be a realistic #, you give it 30 seconds, no less, and bam stand em up if they're just lyin on the ground mat-humping. Now if they're active or make a successful aggressive action i.e. GNP/improving position or attempting subs (fights should never be stood up when fighters are going for subs), and not just missing GNP cuz the other guys holding their arms for dear life, then let em ride out another 20-30 seconds for every successful aggressive action. GNP and advancing position text can be deceiving. Plenty of fighters IRL attempt GNP from the top, and are so unsuccessful at it because they're being controlled by the guy on bottom, that the ref has no choice but to stand them up. we don't really see "Fighter 1 looks like he wants to score with some GNP but he can't get his arms free, fighter 2 is controlling him from his back." we just see missed GNP text, which very well could be the equivalent of a lackluster ground fight.

 

And in the UFC - I've seen many questionable stand ups. But they're usually 40 seconds to 2 minutes after the fighters hit the ground.

 

I actually like this idea and agree with it. But I also think the only way a guy should be laying on someone dry humping is if the top fighter sets a very low aggression on top. I don't think the top guy who has aggression and is trying to work should just get held down and controlled and get a stand up for it.

[Rambo]

Yeah, I do agree but I think it should be based on wrestling/def grappling/strength ability too. At times we see IRL fighters tying up their opponents and lookin at the ref while a lot of us at home are wondering why the hell he hasn't stood the fight up yet, can't count how many times that happens when I watch a UFC or MMA event. Of course, some rules are more relaxed then others in different orgs, and it varies from ref to ref, but in the UFC and MMATycoon it's really inconsistant. I know it seems a bit more extreme in MMATycoon because there's a lot more fights happening on a day to day basis than the UFC is running, but if you think about the lower shows and promotions, sometimes they have fluke refs, like Mike Tyson reffing an MMA fight. That said, stand ups are still a bit wild and they could use some tweaking cuz it seems like it would make a lot of players happier.

[CusDamato]

The stand ups may need a little fixing but i don't think letting the org choose the frequency of them is the fix.

[Lockdown]

I made this a while back when I was particularly raged over the different types of Ref stand ups. I refrained from posting it but this thread seems like a nice debut

 

the cecil peoples horned tycoon triple threat demon

 

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b27/Rockstar189/cecilpeoples.jpg

[embalmer]

agreed, Mike needs to look into this.

[Rambo]

Another idea - you know how we have different judges in every city and those judges have a level of competence, a competency rating - would it be possible to have dozens of different refs with different tendacies? For example Cecil Peppers might have a tendacy to stand up fights really quick, and Ricco Gracia has a tendacy to never stand up fighters - or some form of "competence" that affects refs the way it affects judges scoring - I think that would be unique and cool, it would also make an enemy out of certain referees rather than the engine.

[Warwynd]

I really like this idea, actually.

[Guest]

http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=505171

 

"Toeson Esq drags the fight down to the ground.

The referee is asking the fighters to pick up the pace."

 

"Toeson Esq shoots in with a lovely double leg takedown. Vickers manages to land in full guard to minimise the damage.

Vickers not looking particularly offensive just at the moment.

Vickers looking to hit a scissor sweep but Toeson Esq is one step ahead there.

Toeson Esq is fighting to break Vickers's control of his arms but Vickers is doing a good job of controlling the position at the moment.

http://www.mmatycoon.com/images/fight/1.gif

That's one minute gone in the round.

Vickers keeping moving, preventing Toeson Esq from controlling successfully.

The ref warns both fighters not to hold the cage as they work up against the meshing.

Vickers pulls Toeson Esq in close to prevent any damage.

The referee wants the fighters to be more active or he's going to reset them on the feet.

http://www.mmatycoon.com/images/fight/refstandup2.gif

Deangelo Jeremetrius Vickers has forced the referee to step in and restart the fight on the feet."

 

This is just retarded.

[PBR]

http://www.mmatycoon...php?FTID=505171

 

"Toeson Esq drags the fight down to the ground.

The referee is asking the fighters to pick up the pace."

 

"Toeson Esq shoots in with a lovely double leg takedown. Vickers manages to land in full guard to minimise the damage.

Vickers not looking particularly offensive just at the moment.

Vickers looking to hit a scissor sweep but Toeson Esq is one step ahead there.

Toeson Esq is fighting to break Vickers's control of his arms but Vickers is doing a good job of controlling the position at the moment.

http://www.mmatycoon.com/images/fight/1.gif

That's one minute gone in the round.

Vickers keeping moving, preventing Toeson Esq from controlling successfully.

The ref warns both fighters not to hold the cage as they work up against the meshing.

Vickers pulls Toeson Esq in close to prevent any damage.

The referee wants the fighters to be more active or he's going to reset them on the feet.

http://www.mmatycoon.com/images/fight/refstandup2.gif

Deangelo Jeremetrius Vickers has forced the referee to step in and restart the fight on the feet."

 

This is just retarded.

 

heck thats pretty good you got almost 1 minute before getting stood up -- lol -- some massive control there

[Guest]

Sad part is that I was aggression/finish both on top and on the bottom...

[buddyplayer69]

Sad part is that I was aggression/finish both on top and on the bottom...

 

That's what I don't like. I don't like a fighter having so much control on bottom over top fighters.

 

I'd be curious to see what his physicals and defensive grappling are compared to yours. That's the only other way I could understand him holding you down so well is if you were outmatched by a pretty good deal in those areas.

[Rambo]

Sad part is that I was aggression/finish both on top and on the bottom...

 

Could be his lack of confidence hindering his persistance to move forward. Fighters with no confidence have a tendacy to stall and do nothing.

[Guest]

Could be his lack of confidence hindering his persistance to move forward. Fighters with no confidence have a tendacy to stall and do nothing.

 

That still doesn't explain the referee threatening to stand it up like right after he pulled guard.

[LanceTempleton]

That still doesn't explain the referee threatening to stand it up like right after he pulled guard.

 

I think thats just text dude. You both pretty much rolled do nothing so that text gets filled in sometimes.

 

I don't like getting involved in these debates usually because this forum just tends to flame, but I don't see a ton of problem with this example. Maybe one minute is a little soon to be stood up, but you guys made absolutely no moves in that time period (through bad luck with the rng or slider settings or whatever). Maybe in real life you would of got another minute or so, but this is a text based game with only a few amount moves per minute and things get sped up a little sometimes. How many more paragraphs did we need to read of "fighter A is pulling him in and preventing him from doing anything" "the ref is asking them to do something" "Fighter A is controlling him" etc?

[Rambo]

I think thats just text dude. You both pretty much rolled do nothing so that text gets filled in sometimes.

 

I don't like getting involved in these debates usually because this forum just tends to flame, but I don't see a ton of problem with this example. Maybe one minute is a little soon to be stood up, but you guys made absolutely no moves in that time period (through bad luck with the rng or slider settings or whatever). Maybe in real life you would of got another minute or so, but this is a text based game with only a few amount moves per minute and things get sped up a little sometimes. How many more paragraphs did we need to read of "fighter A is pulling him in and preventing him from doing anything" "the ref is asking them to do something" "Fighter A is controlling him" etc?

 

That's how I've always felt about the ref stand ups, but the majority seem to have an issue with them (I can see why some of the time) that I figure they need a bit of tweaking. Even if it's adding the nonsense unnecessary text. It's kind of like the stand up game, sometimes you only get 5-10 moves per minute, sometimes you end up with 20-30.

[Guest]

If it's just text that's cool, but if the ref seriously was threatening to stand a fight up after 3 seconds something is off.