soyster89 Posted July 28, 2013 Report Share Posted July 28, 2013 We all understand that the question is why. Just count every one of your opponents missed TDs, clinch attempts, and punches/kicks and you'll have how many counter opportunities your fighter had. Then just subtract how many counters you landed and you'll know how many missed counter opportunities your fighter had. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 28, 2013 Report Share Posted July 28, 2013 Just count every one of your opponents missed TDs, clinch attempts, and punches/kicks and you'll have how many missed counter opportunities your fighter had. Why I need to read all fight just to count it? Its not better to put it in TOTT? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minark Posted July 28, 2013 Report Share Posted July 28, 2013 Still doesn't make much sense. If someone throws a hook at me and misses that's counted, but if I counter with a hook that also misses it doesn't count? That makes absolutely 0 sense. I still threw attempted a hook and that hook still missed therefore it doesn't make a whole lot of sense that it doesn't count as a missed attempt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soyster89 Posted July 28, 2013 Report Share Posted July 28, 2013 Still doesn't make much sense. If someone throws a hook at me and misses that's counted, but if I counter with a hook that also misses it doesn't count? That makes absolutely 0 sense. I still threw attempted a hook and that hook still missed therefore it doesn't make a whole lot of sense that it doesn't count as a missed attempt. Not saying it woulnd't be nice, but counters aren't necessarily a missed strike. A counter is an opportunity based on your opponent missing. Even though they missed, they may recover in time so your fighter couldn't fire off a counter strike, or maybe your fighter didn't react quick enough to shoot for a counter TD or clinch. People are implying that every miss by your opponent that your fighter doesn't do something with is a swing and a miss. It's not. It could be a missed opportunity. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minark Posted July 28, 2013 Report Share Posted July 28, 2013 Not saying it woulnd't be nice, but counters aren't necessarily a missed strike. A counter is an opportunity based on your opponent missing. Even though they missed, they may recover in time so your fighter couldn't fire off a counter strike, or maybe your fighter didn't react quick enough to shoot for a counter TD or clinch. People are implying that every miss by your opponent that your fighter doesn't do something with is a swing and a miss. It's not. It could be a missed opportunity. I understand that. If your opponent misses and you hesitate and stuff like that in cases where nothing is thrown back as a counter. I just don't understand why the engine wouldn't count times when you counter back and actually attempt something as misses. (If that really is the case. Still don't know if that's not what he meant and I'm just going full potato right now.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 28, 2013 Report Share Posted July 28, 2013 What the fuck are you talking about? Missed is missed. Counters are opportunities, and we don't measure missed opportunities. Papa Humors had the option to pull out, but didn't. I count that as a missed opportunity. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 28, 2013 Report Share Posted July 28, 2013 Papa Humors had the option to pull out, but didn't. I count that as a missed opportunity. Like I said missed is missed why if you miss a punch as a counter is different when you just miss a punch? Then I guess Anderson doest punch at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 28, 2013 Report Share Posted July 28, 2013 But you have to remember that a wrestler with elite wrestling and elite takedown you will always get taking down unless you have elite wrestling and elite takedown defense and then it will come down to slider skills but you have to try and adapt to changes. I had to adjust my stand up guys too. Damn those wrestlers. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBR Posted July 28, 2013 Report Share Posted July 28, 2013 But you have to remember that a wrestler with elite wrestling and elite takedown you will always get taking down unless you have elite wrestling and elite takedown defense and then it will come down to slider skills but you have to try and adapt to changes. I had to adjust my stand up guys too. Damn those wrestlers. Cheers big point there -- there are some that adapt quickly then others like me it takes a while to get adapted -- not sure how much takedown would come into play but it cant hurt to have some takedown to back up takedown d -- sort of like having kicks to help defend -- doesnt have to be maxed out but at least something edited: also i might be the only one but i like the changes here and there -- it shows who can adapt and change quickly -- keeps things interesting and not just one slider settings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warwynd Posted July 28, 2013 Report Share Posted July 28, 2013 Counter takedowns that miss are not reported in the end game stats. Precisely! Missed counters aren't necessarily missed tds or missed strikes, they're missed counter attempts. That's why they're not counted. Just count every one of your opponents missed TDs, clinch attempts, and punches/kicks and you'll have how many counter opportunities your fighter had. Then just subtract how many counters you landed and you'll know how many missed counter opportunities your fighter had. This is also what I am talking about. Still doesn't make much sense. If someone throws a hook at me and misses that's counted, but if I counter with a hook that also misses it doesn't count? That makes absolutely 0 sense. I still threw attempted a hook and that hook still missed therefore it doesn't make a whole lot of sense that it doesn't count as a missed attempt. You never see anything like this in the pbp: "Fighter A fires a sloppy head punch and Fighter counters with a jab to the body that just missed" You only see successful counter attempts. Meaning that if the counter opportunity leads to a successful counter then it shows up. If the opportunity was missed, then the result will not be shown. I hope that makes it more clear. Basically this is how it works. Fighter A has to miss. The game will not even check for a counter until the other guy misses. So if you have terrible Strike or Takedown Defense and are facing fighter strong in those areas, then you should probably not bother countering. Once the miss happens then the engine uses whatever logic it is programmed for to see if you attempt to counter. It factors your Counter setting and possibly your Speed compared to your opponents Speed, although I do not pretend to understand all that is in that formula. There could well be a randomizing factor in there as well as other mitigating factors. In fact there has to be some sort of randomization otherwise the faster opponent will always counter once it is determined, based on your slider setting, that you would attempt one. After it is determined if you will attempt a Counter then it looks to what type etc... But once the determination on whether you will Counter or not is made then the attempt is successful. It just has to decide what kind of counter was made... All of that is done off screen so to speak and therefore we don't see the missed counter attempts and so on. It is the reason that guys that couldn't steal a takedown against a more skilled wrestler aggressively can still get those takedowns. Because counter doesn't weigh the skill as heavily into the equation if at all and therefore you can see much higher success rates from counter TDs and Strikes then you might otherwise see from aggressive striking TDs etc. All of this is happening in the background and is the reason we don't see failed counter attempts. The pbp does still give clues that the fighter is attempting counters though with lines like "looks like Fighter B is looking to capitalize on a mistake rather than taking some initiative." Or something similar. big point there -- there are some that adapt quickly then others like me it takes a while to get adapted -- not sure how much takedown would come into play but it cant hurt to have some takedown to back up takedown d -- sort of like having kicks to help defend -- doesnt have to be maxed out but at least something edited: also i might be the only one but i like the changes here and there -- it shows who can adapt and change quickly -- keeps things interesting and not just one slider settings I tweak slider settings all the time. I think every fight is at least a little bit different and it also makes it a bit harder for my opponents to know exactly what I will be like to fight. Not saying that I am super awesome or anything, but rather that I do think that I am doing pretty good considering that in many cases I am an extreme underdog yet still manage to come out on top... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Posted July 28, 2013 Report Share Posted July 28, 2013 People are implying that every miss by your opponent that your fighter doesn't do something with is a swing and a miss. It's not. It could be a missed opportunity. It'd be really nice if there was some way of knowing that your fighter tried to counter and missed (and thus, sapped his energy pool) or if he just plain didn't counter (saw no opening or whatever). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warwynd Posted July 29, 2013 Report Share Posted July 29, 2013 It'd be really nice if there was some way of knowing that your fighter tried to counter and missed (and thus, sapped his energy pool) or if he just plain didn't counter (saw no opening or whatever). It would be nice, I agree... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soyster89 Posted July 29, 2013 Report Share Posted July 29, 2013 It'd be really nice if there was some way of knowing that your fighter tried to counter and missed (and thus, sapped his energy pool) or if he just plain didn't counter (saw no opening or whatever). I agree that it would be cool, but I think it would likely take a huge engine update as it currently doesn't differentiate between those two counter misses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Posted July 29, 2013 Report Share Posted July 29, 2013 I agree that it would be cool, but I think it would likely take a huge engine update as it currently doesn't differentiate between those two counter misses. It shouldn't be particularly complex coding if the engine already knows if a counter was attempted and failed: it's literally just add a line of code to output the commentary text for missed counters (and one more to add it to the strike stats). Assuming the engine is coded roughly how I expect it would be anyway. For what it's worth, I've never seen Mike actually say if counters can miss and honestly wouldn't be surprised if they actually can't and the "miss chance" is loaded into if the counter happens at all rather than two separate calculations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CardiffWanderer Posted July 29, 2013 Report Share Posted July 29, 2013 I imagine one rather large problem outside the coding issues that comes with adding missed counters, is the need for someone to spend the time and effort actually writing the texts of line that would need to be inserted. It would be a significant undertaking as the text needed for missed counters would probably have to equal (or at least get close to) the number of successful ones. Although people may not see as much variety as they may like in the text as it is now, it would be very noticeable if there was a very limited number of counter lines. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Posted July 29, 2013 Report Share Posted July 29, 2013 It would be a significant undertaking as the text needed for missed counters would probably have to equal (or at least get close to) the number of successful ones. Although people may not see as much variety as they may like in the text as it is now, it would be very noticeable if there was a very limited number of counter lines. Fair point, though I think if Mike started a thread looking for contributions he'd get a good number. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu_Pidasol Posted July 30, 2013 Report Share Posted July 30, 2013 It shouldn't be particularly complex coding if the engine already knows if a counter was attempted and failed: it's literally just add a line of code to output the commentary text for missed counters (and one more to add it to the strike stats). Assuming the engine is coded roughly how I expect it would be anyway. For what it's worth, I've never seen Mike actually say if counters can miss and honestly wouldn't be surprised if they actually can't and the "miss chance" is loaded into if the counter happens at all rather than two separate calculations. Mike has said that is how it happens Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goatacre Posted July 31, 2013 Report Share Posted July 31, 2013 Stu is correct - Mike covered this in quite some detail recently in another thread. The fight engine simply doesn't deal with counters the way most people thought. Interesting to note that an increasing number of people are now coming to the conclusion that counter TDs are overpowered. When I was the first to raise this very soon after the latest changes were made I was mocked... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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