xanax Posted February 14, 2014 Report Share Posted February 14, 2014 JDS via Good chin, heavy hands Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ens189 Posted February 14, 2014 Report Share Posted February 14, 2014 Realistically there are 3 guys at HW who are above Overeem by any clear margin (Velasquez, Dos Santos, and Browne) -- there's not a lot of daylight between him and Barnett, Miocic, or Werdum. We could argue about Bigfoot (and by extension Hunt) but really Overeem seemed to just piss away what should've been a win. He's miles ahead of super overrated Barnett. Miocic and him is a solid fight, he's already beaten Werdum but who knows now that he's "clean". As shallow as HW is he will fight for the title eventually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 14, 2014 Report Share Posted February 14, 2014 I am going to be THAT guy. No one else in the world gives a fuck about wrestling except whoever the 'NCAA' is. It doesn't mean they can't produce fighters, it means no one else gives a fuck and they need to prove themselves as well as anyone else. If you want a pedigree, kickboxing will trump it everytime and BJJ is next, then boxing, with wrestling waaaaayyyy back behind. Because being able to secure a takedown, followed by lying on someone = shit. Which reminds me, I should made a thread in improvements about how fucking bollocks takedowns are in this game in terms of scoring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AK47 Posted February 14, 2014 Report Share Posted February 14, 2014 i don't think browne is better than overeem. tbh browne has decent striking with ko power and good take down d Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramirez Posted February 14, 2014 Report Share Posted February 14, 2014 I'd say it evened out about right actually -- he had a lot of supporters hyping him to the moon sure but also a lot of people who thought he couldn't beat Lesnar, realistically there are 3 guys at HW who are above Overeem by any clear margin (Velasquez, Dos Santos, and Browne) -- there's not a lot of daylight between him and Barnett, Miocic, or Werdum. We could argue about Bigfoot (and by extension Hunt) but really Overeem seemed to just piss away what should've been a win. we can't assume Overeem would have won that one, he got brutally knocked upwards (as opposed to ko'ed), it's like saying that your team were winning but lost 4 - 0 by bad luck... i don't think browne is better than overeem. tbh browne has decent striking with ko power and good take down d as above, if you get front kicked to the face and then your head bounces off the canvas from a hammer fist you lost. why is it that Overeem fans think what he does is skill but what happens to him is lucky? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 14, 2014 Report Share Posted February 14, 2014 If you want a pedigree, kickboxing will trump it everytime and BJJ is next, then boxing, with wrestling waaaaayyyy back behind. Because being able to secure a takedown, followed by lying on someone = shit. Wrestling is absolutely the best base that an MMA fighter can start with. I feel like you have to be kidding with this post actually. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 14, 2014 Report Share Posted February 14, 2014 Not me mate, too much proof to the opposite showing that a potentially great fighter isn't going to meet his potential. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AK47 Posted February 14, 2014 Report Share Posted February 14, 2014 as above, if you get front kicked to the face and then your head bounces off the canvas from a hammer fist you lost. why is it that Overeem fans think what he does is skill but what happens to him is lucky? did browne win? yes. was it lucky? no. You cant forget that browne was getting dominated everywhere until overeem gassed. My statement was towards people thinking that browne is a level above everyone when he really isn't. He was outstruke by kongo and fought the most lathargic hws in the ufc while getting dominated by one b4 he landed a ko Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 14, 2014 Report Share Posted February 14, 2014 Easy on the liquor that makes you incomprehensible there tiger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rambo Posted February 14, 2014 Report Share Posted February 14, 2014 I think Cain, JDS, Kongo, Nelson, Carwin (if he wasn't retired would of punched a massive hole in Overoid's head that the front row would of tested positive), Hunt, Stipe Miocic, maybe even Stefan Struve all knock Overoid out. I bet there's a lot of HW's out there that will knock his block off. Overoid is overrated. You're a massive muscled up machine and you don't have that much KO power. Who has he knocked out? His most impressive KO's are Duffee and Rogers. Other than that it's prolly just some japs or chinese dudes who most likely get finished by everybody they lose to. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AK47 Posted February 14, 2014 Report Share Posted February 14, 2014 lets be fair it's overhorsemeat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rambo Posted February 14, 2014 Report Share Posted February 14, 2014 I'm an Overoid hater. So I can hardly give him credit for his ability. I just remember him getting flopped around at LHW frequently, guy comes back looking like a WWF wrestler. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ens189 Posted February 15, 2014 Report Share Posted February 15, 2014 I am going to be THAT guy. No one else in the world gives a fuck about wrestling except whoever the 'NCAA' is. It doesn't mean they can't produce fighters, it means no one else gives a fuck and they need to prove themselves as well as anyone else. If you want a pedigree, kickboxing will trump it everytime and BJJ is next, then boxing, with wrestling waaaaayyyy back behind. Because being able to secure a takedown, followed by lying on someone = shit. Which reminds me, I should made a thread in improvements about how fucking bollocks takedowns are in this game in terms of scoring. Well you're being THAT guy who shows a massive level of disrespect and ignorance. Wrestling is still the most important base in MMA without a doubt. Let's look at the champs... FW: DJ is a 2x state medalist in HS. Not the most impressive of resumes but he's certainly been in there with some tough wrestlers and held his own. BW/FW: Neither guy has a stellar wrestling pedigree but both are outstanding at defending the TD and obviously place great importance in deciding where the fight stays (The Chuck approach). LW: Pettis, not a decorated wrestler at all. WW: Shark tank of wrestlers, the former champ being possibly the best wrestler in MMA history and one of the guys fighting for his vacated title is one of the most decorated collegiate wrestlers of all time. MW: Weidman was an excellent college wrestler and used that to develop a very nasty submission game. LHW: Jones is a monster of a wrestler. HW: Cain is a 2x AA. Every single one of these division's top 10 is stacked with former college wrestlers and they transition to the cage very quickly. How many world class BJJ guys have we seen with the same type of success as D1 AA wrestlers? None. Roger tanked big time, Maia/Shields have had some success but nothing compared to the champs I listed. Leites fought for the title at a time when no one thought he actually deserved it. Kickboxers? Give me a break. I'll include MT fighters in here since you decided that wasn't an important discipline that it merited it's own category. Overeem? Barboza? Cerrone? I look forward to your rebuttal where I'm sure you'll go into great lengths about why guys like Hendricks, Cain, JJ, Weidman, and DJ are fighters who just lay on someone and don't do shit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rambo Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 I don't think K-Rad was saying that wrestling wasn't an important base, I think he was referring to being renown for competing in the sport outside of MMA <<< could of been worded better by me. If you're a high level NCAA wrestler converting to MMA, it means jack shit to most fans and promoters til you compete on an MMA level, because collegiate level wrestling - laying on people - is boring. Also, nobody watches wrestling, except friends of wrestlers and wrestlers. I've never got excited or even heard of a high level wrestling match. But when Palhares or Gracie and even Bravo compete in ADCC, you actually hear about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 Those beers certainly didn't help me enunciate my point. I am not saying wrestling is not super useful, I am saying an NCAA pedigree doesn't make a brilliant fighter by default. Plenty of great fighters do NOT come from a US association style wrestling background but DO wrestle well and can still hold their own. Wrestling (and this is including sambo, shuai jiao, greco-roman, etc) in and off itself is obviously a great base for MMA in that it gives good strength, toughness, conditioning and exposure to martial competition, but being able to pin doesn't win MMA. The guys you mention are all great wrestlers but this isn't what wins them fights. GSP is a great non-wrestling wrestler and he's copped years of shit for doing exactly that. The other guys now have names for standing and banging, like Cain, submissions like Weidman, Jones has beautiful kickboxing, Anderson Silva has shown great agility in the wrestling department but it is his kickboxing and ground game that make him. Takedown offense and defense are the key aspects to wanting to assert your will in the cage, but only under the assumption the other person doesn't want to be in the same place they currently are. EDIT: ^^^ I should make you my spokesperson CK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ens189 Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 Alright we're cleared up, and to be fair my rant might have been beer fueled as well. Enjoy the fights tonight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 Will do baby To be completely honest my wrestle-rage only actually comes up when Lesnar is involved. Brilliant wrestler or not, the dude is a fucking man mountain, anyone with that size that can take a hit should be a dominant force in MMA... but that's where he and Overeem come unstuck. The hitting part! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rambo Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 Eh you did a better job explaining it than I did lol. Couldn't of picked a better example than GSP. Lesnar can't take a punch. MMA fact. For how big his head is, you'd think the guy would be tougher than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ens189 Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 I've said it before, I'd love to see the guy compete at ADCC. He'd be a superstar and bring them a ton of publicity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 I would have thought it was actually his best defensive weapon. I'd expect most fists in those little gloves to breakdown under the force of impacting that nugget. EDIT: Agreed ^^^ If the guy trained up a top level submission game instead of relying on sheer force/size, he'd be a WOMD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ens189 Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 I would have thought it was actually his best defensive weapon. I'd expect most fists in those little gloves to breakdown under the force of impacting that nugget. EDIT: Agreed ^^^ If the guy trained up a top level submission game instead of relying on sheer force/size, he'd be a WOMD. His size/strength along with his wrestling pedigree would make him an elite purple the second he walked onto the mat in no gi. Give him two years of solid training and he'd be doing some shit we've never seen before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 Man... Lesnar vs. Overeem at ADCC. I'd watch it Dana White would get to laugh his arse off too instead of raging (rightly) at Overeem's latest call out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ens189 Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 Man... Lesnar vs. Overeem at ADCC. I'd watch it Dana White would get to laugh his arse off too instead of raging (rightly) at Overeem's latest call out. That would actually be a pretty entertaining grappling match. Reem has a decent ground game himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 For sure, I am not sure how rankings work, but assuming your prediction of top level purple for Lesnar, then he'd get grouped in with brown belts like Overeem, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ens189 Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 For sure, I am not sure how rankings work, but assuming your prediction of top level purple for Lesnar, then he'd get grouped in with brown belts like Overeem, right? Not sure how it's different at ADCC. I know most places like Grapplers Quest, NAGA, Pan Ams, etc. have distinct divisions for white/blue/purple/brown+black. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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