Gain training from fights

[BlueFalcon]

Real life fighters learn more from their fights than they ever will in a day at the gym. They should also learn from their fights in this game. What they improve in should be relative to what they encountered in the fight. It does not have to be a significant amount, but it would add a bit of different strategy to the game: Do I wait until my 16yr old is peaked, or fight young if it is a fair fight?

 

This might also get more fighters fighting more fights.

 

PROS:

More realistic
Creates more fights
Adds another dimension to strategy & tactics
Encourages players to fight their fighters earlier

Might encourage more fair fights - if you're crushing cans, you're not going to learn anything!

CONS:

Might make managers want to extend fight length. (Counter - use only what is learned in round 1...we all know we are too tired to learn much after that anyway in RL)
People might spam fights (Counter - only give experience for 1 fight every set period of time, maybe 1 month? or even...first 4 fights then once a month after that?)

 

What do you all think? This has likely been brought up before, but I could not find it.

[Erik]

I think the main thing fighters get from their fights is a gauge of their ability, rather than any concrete gain in skill they learn where their weaknesses are and can improve upon them more readily in the gym -- that was the premise of my thread about fighters needing to fight to gain skills faster or past a certain level found here which I stand by.

[MichioKaku]

I dont believe you gain any knowledge from a fight except dont stand in the way of that guys punchs/kicks and dont go to the ground with so and so.... What you watch on tape after though is where you learn what you did wrong and right. You can listen to good corner men and DJ is a great example of this. They say do this and that and he is doing this and that and he says ok, ok, ok, And goes out and does it. He hasn't learned anything skill wise, his corner men see what is working and is not and inform him on what skills he already knows will work and what to avoid.

 

Don't get me wrong I am not trashing your idea as i do think you may learn a little but your not going to learn how to perform a choke by being choked out. You arent going to learn foot work by following a guy around the cage as his foot work is better than yours. you may learn a little striking defense after getting pounded on heh and you may increase some cardio if you go 5 rounds when you train for 3. i could see a little strength gain but very little compared to what you get in a single day in the gym. you may gain some flexibility if you keep from getting an armbar but you should equally lose it if you get hurt from an armbar so that really goes the same for everything above. if you walk out and one punch a guy, do you lose cardio, strength or whatever? I would think it would have to work both ways and would take a lot of coding for a small gain when he could just tweak the training a little to get the same end effect.

 

Also the little you learn as in my opinion would not be more by far than the time you have to take off in the gym prior to and after a fight in training. A couple days before and some times quite lengthy after. The most time spent in the cage in the UFC is Frankie Edgar at just under 6 hours and 3 minutes. Thats a span of 20 fights over about 10 years. Its really hard to argue those 6 hours even come close to the 10+ years of training for those 20 fights.

 

I will say if you were the matchmaker IRL (this was wrongly directed at the poster of the thread thinking he was someone else, apologies were offered)this would make sense because you seem to love to put my grapplers against other grapplers and i can see knowledge being learned there just as you learn some striking defense in a evenly matched striking fight but if your getting pounded on your learning nothing but pain, same for subbed. You dont learn from an 8 second knockout(seen 5 seconds on here) or a 6 second sub.

[GiankaBonghi]

You already earn Experience Hidden and Conditioning form fighting, it is good enough already, and realistic.

[BlueFalcon]

Ahh, I didn't know about the experience and I'm glad we already have that.

 

Michio, your points are obvious and agreeable. I wouldn't even consider a fighter gaining much in physicals, maybe a tiny bit in secondaries, but I would believe they would get decent gains from what we categorize as primaries.

 

For example, the best way to get better at boxing - box someone better than you. Obviously if you only last 5 seconds you're not going to learn much. But going 5 minutes with someone who legitimately wants to knock you out cold is going to teach you a lot more than you'll learn in hours of sparring with pads on.

 

As far as the coding, it's pretty much already there. Set each fight similar as if both fighters are doing a boxing/mt/wrestling/BJJ spar against each other all at once. Then multiply the gains by how long round 1 lasted. If it went 5 minutes, you get 100%. If it went 1 minute, fighters get 20%, or something similar to this.

 

Doing this would also go into the fact that you don't learn from fighting people worse than you, you only learn from fighting people better than you. But anyone overly concerned about their W/L record who just wants to crush cans, would probably dislike this idea.

[BlueFalcon]

I will say if you were the matchmaker IRL this would make sense because you seem to love to put my grapplers against other grapplers

All your fighters in DFC are stand up boxing or muay thai fighters, so I don't understand what you mean here. Maybe you are confusing me with Larry Mizzou of Carnage Fighting?

[MichioKaku]

All your fighters in DFC are stand up boxing or muay thai fighters, so I don't understand what you mean here. Maybe you are confusing me with Larry Mizzou of Carnage Fighting?

Amended above with explanation. Apologies again for an observation that went to the wrong person. Names on the forums should match in game because i cant keep up with everyone(just imo). I thought i knew the name, turns out i did but it was for the wrong person.

[BlueFalcon]

All good

[Kragarth]

How about a combined prediction/training feature, where you select a specific secondary skill to focus on in the fight. You get a bonus to that skill during the fight and if you meet some requirement (e.g. win the fight, last until the 3rd round, successfully use the selected skill x times) you keep the bonus.

[MichioKaku]

How about a combined prediction/training feature, where you select a specific secondary skill to focus on in the fight. You get a bonus to that skill during the fight and if you meet some requirement (e.g. win the fight, last until the 3rd round, successfully use the selected skill x times) you keep the bonus.

So if I pick kicks and throw it say 20 times and it lands 5 (because my kick skill sucks, this is why I am wanting it to improve) and I win the fight in the 3rd round meeting all your criteria, I get a bonus? For 20 kick attempts compared to the 100+ I just did in the training session a day ago? I would think the bonus would be so small you wouldn't notice. You train for a specific person for months IRL, time is 4 times as fast here so say a month. I really hope in that month you have trained what you want to not need a fight as training. Would it be a nice to get a boost for simply doing your job? Yes. Would it be anything compared to the months of training you had prior? not even close. Mike is a one man team. Coding this in takes away from other improvements he is trying to code all for a smidgen of training boost? The biggest thing you should take away from a fight is where you are weak and strong in comparison to the fighter you just fought, win or lose so you know what to train. This is already shown at the bottom of the fight showing you what you did and didn't do.

 

Just like the military. You train to fight, you fight to win. Not the other way around.

[Kragarth]

Forget about the criteria for now. The idea is an award for "putting it all together in a real fight." Practicing a thousand front kicks is important for building strength, improving form and developing muscle memory, but you also need the experience of trying to kick someone in a real fight. Sparring helps, but there is nothing quite like the real thing.

 

Imagine a fighter who has been practicing kicks all week. Before the fight, you sit down and carefully go over everything you've learned, discuss strategy for when to go for kicks, and watch video to spot weaknesses in your opponent that will present openings for a kick, as well as your own video to spot mistakes when you telegraph a kick is incoming. You then go into the fight resolved to put all of this practice and preparation into the fight.

 

You are right this might not be a coding priority, but that decision can't be made if the idea isn't put out there in the first place.

[MichioKaku]

Forget about the criteria for now. The idea is an award for "putting it all together in a real fight." Practicing a thousand front kicks is important for building strength, improving form and developing muscle memory, but you also need the experience of trying to kick someone in a real fight. Sparring helps, but there is nothing quite like the real thing.

 

Imagine a fighter who has been practicing kicks all week. Before the fight, you sit down and carefully go over everything you've learned, discuss strategy for when to go for kicks, and watch video to spot weaknesses in your opponent that will present openings for a kick, as well as your own video to spot mistakes when you telegraph a kick is incoming. You then go into the fight resolved to put all of this practice and preparation into the fight.

 

You are right this might not be a coding priority, but that decision can't be made if the idea isn't put out there in the first place.

Ok so I didn't see where he actually fought so I can not say how it effected his training. Similar circumstances after a fight are a learning tool as I have pointed out but not during a fight otherwise John Doe would not be throwing over hand rights in the second and third because it landed for him in the first round(something he learned during the fight, that it will land) but now the opponent see's it coming and learned he he is going to throw it.

 

Ok 2 things were learned. Not how to throw an overhand right but how to land it on 1 opponent. This does not increase anything by any measurable amount IMO. Fighter b learned to look for a right hand from John doe. 1 punch of many and very much different from each fighter. What has he learned? keep your left hand up and/or be ready for his right. Both fighters corner men surely would have pointed things out to them during the fight as the fighter sees much less that an outside observer which is show by John doe telegraphing his overhand right even though its obvious to the fans watching and fighter b that it isn't going to land anymore.

 

With all that being said. You gain experience as a fighter as you have more fighters that you have fought. So an experience bar of sorts, a percentage slider based on wins or whatever is not a bad way of implementing what i think you are trying to say. I am not sure if it is in the game but the tale of tape does say inexperienced and experienced from time to time.

 

But as far as a direct impact on a skill. I just don't see it. Commentators aren't saying, he fought 3 grapplers in his last 3 matches so he should be well prepared for fighter c. Interviews prior to the fights they arent asking him how much he learned in his last 3 fights in BJJ, they want to know how his camp went. So the commentators say he has been on the mats with hyped coach a and sparring partners 1-7 for the last 5 weeks working on his BJJ skill in preparation for this fight. He has learned BJJ. Now its if he implements it and does it correctly as trained, not how much is he going to improve during the fight. Again he may learn what works against this fighter during the fight but not BJJ as a whole. He isnt going to learn a triangle choke from tossing it up 5 times and on the 6th getting one it tight. He has done that in training hundreds if not thousands of times and sparring partners while not the same aren't making it easy on him and more so when you bring in famed BJJ expert xyz to help.

 

Yes I know its hard to mimic Jon Jones or DJ but when fighters fight them a second time have they really learned from the fight itself, i mean hard skills not why JJ or DJ is different. I already agreed you will learn the fighter is prone to certain things. But you arent better at anything because you fought them. Diaz and abandoned my belt conner is coming up. Please for your argument tell me what skills diaz and Mr. Abandoned learned the first time. Hard skills as that are in the game, primaries, secondaries and physicals. What was learned by either and to what degree.

[BlueFalcon]

Each fight should gain the fighter training similar to sparring. My opinion is a real fight would teach fighters much more than a sparring session, nothing is better than the real thing. Obviously someone would learn more from a 5 minute fight then a 5 second fight too though.

[MichioKaku]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhL-zEQEqHI

 

Who learned what?

[Kragarth]

Clone a person. Over the next five years they live the exact same lifestyle with one exception - one of them has 30 amateur fights and the other has none. After 5 years they fight each other. I'm confident the one with 30 fights under his belt would be considered a huge favorite because common experience tells us being in a real fight is an important learning tool.

 

The first question is whether the game already successfully simulates this. Does 30 fights worth of experience adequately reflect the realistic improvement of a fighter's skill?

 

However, realism is only the first question - because it is only one side of the coin. This is a game that sometimes sacrifices realism for fun. What is more fun, a game where you fight frequently while training, or a game of where you avoid fights? Obviously, people might disagree on that question. For those that want more fights, gaining training I g effects from fighting is fun. Even if the experience hidden is providing realistic gains, there is also a substantial downside to fighting in that you provide a record for your future opponents to examine and also run the risk of injury. Thus, if most people would prefer a game where the best strategy is to fight frequently, this could still be a good idea even if you think it is unrealistic.

[BlueFalcon]

I understand your point Michio, although I would argue that the loser of that fight probably watched it 100 times afterward to study it and learn from it. The victor may not have learned much, but the loser did. So, perhaps losing a fight should gain more experience for your fighter than winning a fight - that would be an interesting concept and might make people less apt to just crush cans.

 

Obviously I think this is a great idea with many pros and very few cons. I ask each person reading this to consider the pros and cons of this idea.

[MichioKaku]

I understand your point Michio, although I would argue that the loser of that fight probably watched it 100 times afterward to study it and learn from it. The victor may not have learned much, but the loser did. So, perhaps losing a fight should gain more experience for your fighter than winning a fight - that would be an interesting concept and might make people less apt to just crush cans.

 

Obviously I think this is a great idea with many pros and very few cons. I ask each person reading this to consider the pros and cons of this idea.

I said that from the start:) I think it was my first point. A fighter does not learn from the fight. He learns from watching what he did wrong and right after the fight. I used DJ might mouse as an example. after round one he goes to the corner, they tell him do this, do that and he just says ok, ok, ok. He doesn't see or learn what the corner men are seeing, he trusts them and goes out and executes what they said from the training he had previously, not from what he learned during the fight.

 

Thank you for an honest reply and not a hypothetical that I still think the guy who didn't have to stop training for 2 weeks(if not more) every 2 months to cut weight and nurse his wounds would have a large training advantage over the other. Plus he knows how the other guy fights. Its not even been said what one fight is worth in training or experience and we jumped to 30 fights...

[CusDamato]

As someone that has boxed since i was a kid and use to fight (boxing not MMA) sparring is where you put what you learned in training to practice and learn more from it which we already have in the game. On the other hand though there is nothing that can compare to an actual fight but in my opinion its knowledge and confidence you pick up in fights not skills.

 

 

Thank you for an honest reply and not a hypothetical that I still think the guy who didn't have to stop training for 2 weeks(if not more) every 2 months to cut weight and nurse his wounds would have a large training advantage over the other. Plus he knows how the other guy fights. Its not even been said what one fight is worth in training or experience and we jumped to 30 fights...

If we are talking about MMA tycoon then yeah the guy with all the training time would have the advantage but if we are talking real life the guy with 30 fights would beat someone with no fights 90% of the time IMO.

[BlueFalcon]

Thank you for your input CusDamato and I totally agree with what you have said.

[MichioKaku]

 

As someone that has boxed since i was a kid and use to fight (boxing not MMA) sparring is where you put what you learned in training to practice and learn more from it which we already have in the game. On the other hand though there is nothing that can compare to an actual fight but in my opinion its knowledge and confidence you pick up in fights not skills.

 

 

If we are talking about MMA tycoon then yeah the guy with all the training time would have the advantage but if we are talking real life the guy with 30 fights would beat someone with no fights 90% of the time IMO.

 

So to your first statement. You in RL gained experience(knowledge and confidence), not skills like how to punch or punch defense?

 

To your second point, the one who fought would win in RL because of experience or because of the skills he learned during the fights?

[BlueFalcon]

Here's an example Michio -

 

You can take the best target shooter, but when you put them in a fire fight with rounds coming at them, the fucker can't pull the trigger or aim. He has the skill, but only part of it because he didn't apply it. While overseas I saw this happen to several boots, but after that first skirmish things change. Typically it only took that first one (we called it popping their cherry) then they were actually an effective soldier. You could tell who the veterans were who had to return fire several times and were cool, calm, and collected in a fight knowing what to do.

 

Now, take them all back to the range and what do you get? Can those who do awesome in combat actually shoot paper? Who knows?! Whether they had a combat patch or not didn't mean crap at the range. I saw vets shoot both better and worse the rooks; it made zero difference. Who would I rather take into combat? The vets, because when the shit hits the fan they won't freeze or run.

 

How does one gain skill? Experience and observation. Those are the only two ways to gain a skill at something. We know what observation is, so let's focus on experience. We can get experience in the gym with pads, coaching, and sparring. We also gain experience in the ring vs. an equal opponent who wants to rip our head off. And my argument still, is that is the better experience.

 

Let's take this further into the perspective of a MMA fighter. In the gym a coach teaching punch technique would teach you how to move your feet, your hips, how to position your shoulder, where to place your head and to punch through the target. You might work with heavy bags, hand pads, speed bags, or a sparring partner. You could have perfect form and technique. Now you get put into a fight where you're not wearing pads, you're not punching pads, and your target is flesh and blood that wants to knock you out. How much form and technique will you have? Would you still be perfect? Definitely not for the first few punches, but as you get more comfortable and your stress lowers, you find your openings and you feel what its like to REALLY hit someone, your TRUE punch technique will get better.

 

We could beat this dead horse every day, but the concept is still the same. A "Skill" is derived from experience and observation. The best possible experience you can get is to be put in a cage in a real fight. Therefore, the best possible way to learn a skill, should be by using it; by fighting.

[MichioKaku]

Here's an example Michio -

 

You can take the best target shooter, but when you put them in a fire fight with rounds coming at them, the fucker can't pull the trigger or aim. He has the skill, but only part of it because he didn't apply it. While overseas I saw this happen to several boots, but after that first skirmish things change. Typically it only took that first one (we called it popping their cherry) then they were actually an effective soldier. You could tell who the veterans were who had to return fire several times and were cool, calm, and collected in a fight knowing what to do.

 

Now, take them all back to the range and what do you get? Can those who do awesome in combat actually shoot paper? Who knows?! Whether they had a combat patch or not didn't mean crap at the range. I saw vets shoot both better and worse the rooks; it made zero difference. Who would I rather take into combat? The vets, because when the shit hits the fan they won't freeze or run.

 

How does one gain skill? Experience and observation. Those are the only two ways to gain a skill at something. We know what observation is, so let's focus on experience. We can get experience in the gym with pads, coaching, and sparring. We also gain experience in the ring vs. an equal opponent who wants to rip our head off. And my argument still, is that is the better experience.

 

Let's take this further into the perspective of a MMA fighter. In the gym a coach teaching punch technique would teach you how to move your feet, your hips, how to position your shoulder, where to place your head and to punch through the target. You might work with heavy bags, hand pads, speed bags, or a sparring partner. You could have perfect form and technique. Now you get put into a fight where you're not wearing pads, you're not punching pads, and your target is flesh and blood that wants to knock you out. How much form and technique will you have? Would you still be perfect? Definitely not for the first few punches, but as you get more comfortable and your stress lowers, you find your openings and you feel what its like to REALLY hit someone, your TRUE punch technique will get better.

 

We could beat this dead horse every day, but the concept is still the same. A "Skill" is derived from experience and observation. The best possible experience you can get is to be put in a cage in a real fight. Therefore, the best possible way to learn a skill, should be by using it; by fighting.

We can beat it to death. Nope you can. We disagree, end of story.

[Zello]

Maybe a review fight footage or study film sessions or something at option at the gym

[Mentor]

The main gain you have from any fight is experience and that is already in the game. If fighters will gain skills from fighting, then what is the point in training? There is also one other MAJOR downfall in this idea, those gains will almost certainly be uncontrolled, similar to how it works with sparring. I know a lot of managers hate the fact that they have 100s of points spent on things they do not want (eg, knees or elbows).

[MMATycoon]

The main gain you have from any fight is experience and that is already in the game. If fighters will gain skills from fighting, then what is the point in training? There is also one other MAJOR downfall in this idea, those gains will almost certainly be uncontrolled, similar to how it works with sparring. I know a lot of managers hate the fact that they have 100s of points spent on things they do not want (eg, knees or elbows).

 

That can be negated somewhat by only having gains at a lower overall skill level. That should speed the initial process up a bit, of getting a fighter fighting at a decent level.