Guest Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 Randy took that fight no question, sure it was close but randy took the 1st and 3rd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 Does noone count Wilks as being a Brit? errr yeh didnt he loose? I think that makes him errr from abroad somewhere. Nah im joking, you know what that was a great fight, really gruelling for wilks, he showed a lot of heart but Brown was great and just took everything out of Wilks. Did you see the blood coming from him at the end, he took some punishment. btw what happened to Demarques Johnson? though he was supposed to be on the card. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 Randy took that fight no question, sure it was close but randy took the 1st and 3rd. how did randy take the third? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 how did randy take the third? he started the round with a good combo, controlled the rest of the round in the clinch, creating space and landing shots, they weren't overly damaging shots but they were scoring none the less. The ref. separated them and Vera scored with a body kick then had a high kick blockedand Couture pushed him back up against the cage and controlled him some more. Vera got a takedown late and got mount but did NO damage from that position and randy got out fairly quick and ended the fight with a good flurry of punches. seriously only Cecil peoples would have awarded Vera the win, i can't understand why so many people thought he did as well, did you guys even watch the fight? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauliedanger Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 Randy took that fight no question, sure it was close but randy took the 1st and 3rd. Sorry, what fight were you watching? Randy did absolutely ZERO damage during the fight. All he did was own "cage control". He out hugged Vera. They both neutralized each other equally. Randy scored one takedown, and Vera was back up right away. Vera scored some serious strikes, but wasn't able to get out of the grapple. That fight was a draw, neither fighter worked to end the fight, and neither fighter dominated. And Randy sure as hell didn't "take the fight no question". That fight was a perfect example of the flaws in the 10 point must, and how fighters can get cheap wins with the points system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 Sorry, what fight were you watching? Randy did absolutely ZERO damage during the fight. All he did was own "cage control". He out hugged Vera. They both neutralized each other equally. Randy scored one takedown, and Vera was back up right away. Vera scored some serious strikes, but wasn't able to get out of the grapple. That fight was a draw, neither fighter worked to end the fight, and neither fighter dominated. And Randy sure as hell didn't "take the fight no question". That fight was a perfect example of the flaws in the 10 point must, and how fighters can get cheap wins with the points system. The fact that you are arguing though with someone who believes randy won validates the judges somewhat in so much that it shows that different people score things differently, its all interpretation - even with the vague guidelines they have. Even if you scored the fight as a whole some people will say Randy controlled the fight the most. The problem is the interpretation of how you score the fight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
backelie Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 I was really surprised when I saw there are people who thought Vera took that fight. You can argue about the flaws of the system but with normal UFC ten point must scoring that fight was definitely Randy's. Controlling your opponents for almost an entire round scores highly even if you don't do damage, and what little damage Vera did in the third can't make up for the extended time he spent on the figurative "bottom" of the clinch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauliedanger Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 First of all, its not the UFC 10 point system. Its the 10 point system administered by each state's athletic commission (or equivalent) as prescribed under the Unified Rules, which were developed by the Nevada SAC, and adopted by all states that currently sanction MMA. Secondly, its a system built for boxing, and it doesn't work for MMA. On top of that, just because you can see how the judges awarded a win to a fighter based on the 10 pt must doesn't validate anything. The fact that a fighter can win a fight by simply hugging his opponent exposes the flaws. When you judge the fight based on the overall fight, the way some Japanese fights are judged, the fight, I think clearly goes to Vera. Vera was the only fighter to score damaging blows, or advance position. Couture never got out of neutral. And when a fighter fails to create any offense in a fight, he shouldn't win. Offense wins, Couture had no offense, therefore, he should not have won. All that being said, there have been four major examples of how judges fail to accurately judge fights just this year. Two in the UFC (Machida/Rua & Couture/Vera) and two in the UWC in Virginia (Beebe/Easton a few weeks ago and a fight back in April). Nobody involved with MMA, promoters, fighters, analysts, like the 10 point must. The major consensus is that "its the best we got, but we need better". And Saturday's main event was just another example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
backelie Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 Even without the 10 point must system there's a good argument to be made for Randy taking it based on judging the whole fight. In that case it comes down to how you weigh damage vs control. Vera really didn't do that much damage either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauliedanger Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 Vera did enough damage to hurt Couture twice. Comparatively, Couture did zero damage. I'm not saying Vera dominated the match. It was about as boring a 15 minutes as I've seen in a cage in a long time. But I was watching the fight with a match maker and a girl that works for Spike on TUF, and I've talked to other analysts that watched the match, and none of us can believe that Couture won. It was a piss poor fight from both fighters. But the general consensus is that Vera should have taken the win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 First of all, its not the UFC 10 point system. Its the 10 point system administered by each state's athletic commission (or equivalent) as prescribed under the Unified Rules, which were developed by the Nevada SAC, and adopted by all states that currently sanction MMA. Secondly, its a system built for boxing, and it doesn't work for MMA. On top of that, just because you can see how the judges awarded a win to a fighter based on the 10 pt must doesn't validate anything. The fact that a fighter can win a fight by simply hugging his opponent exposes the flaws. When you judge the fight based on the overall fight, the way some Japanese fights are judged, the fight, I think clearly goes to Vera. Vera was the only fighter to score damaging blows, or advance position. Couture never got out of neutral. And when a fighter fails to create any offense in a fight, he shouldn't win. Offense wins, Couture had no offense, therefore, he should not have won. All that being said, there have been four major examples of how judges fail to accurately judge fights just this year. Two in the UFC (Machida/Rua & Couture/Vera) and two in the UWC in Virginia (Beebe/Easton a few weeks ago and a fight back in April). Nobody involved with MMA, promoters, fighters, analysts, like the 10 point must. The major consensus is that "its the best we got, but we need better". And Saturday's main event was just another example. Coutures offence is wrestling, 'hugging' as you put it was clinch work based on wrestling - if wrestling is his offence then it was a pretty effective offence as it controlled a striker for large parts of the fight. Randy spent more time being effective with his offence than Vera did with his in all honesty. You cant expect Randy to stand and bang with a superior striker. I see it like this, we saw two facets of MMA; wrestling and striking, Vera landed some kicks and randy controlled the clinch, i didnt see any clear advantage gained by either so for me it was a draw, a pretty unspectacular one at that. Thats the fight as a whole and not round by round. You'll never get a judging system which gets the results right every-time because its not the system that fails it's the fact humans have different opinions and see things differently and humans judge the fight. Even if you judge the whole fight and not rounds it's all the same, round scoring just breaks it down into sections. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauliedanger Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 Coutures offence is wrestling, 'hugging' as you put it was clinch work based on wrestling - if wrestling is his offence then it was a pretty effective offence as it controlled a striker for large parts of the fight. Randy spent more time being effective with his offence than Vera did with his in all honesty. You cant expect Randy to stand and bang with a superior striker. I see it like this, we saw two facets of MMA; wrestling and striking, Vera landed some kicks and randy controlled the clinch, i didnt see any clear advantage gained by either so for me it was a draw, a pretty unspectacular one at that. Thats the fight as a whole and not round by round. You'll never get a judging system which gets the results right every-time because its not the system that fails it's the fact humans have different opinions and see things differently and humans judge the fight. Even if you judge the whole fight and not rounds it's all the same, round scoring just breaks it down into sections. There's no question Randy's clinch was world class on Saturday. But wrestling involves taking an opponent to the ground and getting into a dominant position. Which Randy didn't do. Randy was only in the advantage position because he had Vera against the cage. That clinch work your talking about was all defensive. Couture didn't make one move to advance his position once he got Vera against the cage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 I disagree that the 10 point system doesn't work for MMA. I think the problem is that judges don't use the 10 pts system appropriately. If they did a better job allocating 10-8 and 10-10 rounds, the system can function just fine. Anyhow, the real tale out of this fight is just a reminder that, for me, Randy Couture is one of the single least-entertaining fighters in the UFC. He's either losing, LNPing or apparently, inventing the lean'n'pray. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauliedanger Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 or apparently, inventing the lean'n'pray. +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabaton Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 Like the bogus machida fight, to be the champ you have to beat the champ. Vera did not "beat" couture. Should he have won a decision? maybe. I could see it going both ways. Vera did more damage (but not much of it) but couture controlled almost the entire match in the boring clinch. But just as Machida did nothing in his fight, Rua did not do enough to take the title. Same with Vera and that's why he lost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djohn Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 You can't place blame solely on Randy that this was a boring fight. Or Even that it stayed agaisnt the cage as long as it did. Vera was only ever allowed to be effective when the Ref saved him from the clinch and reset them. Vera is supposed to be amazing in the clinch. What the fuck happened to that? Randy did do damage in the fight. I recall seeing vera a bit wobbly against the cage. At one point Randy did do some damage with his hands, mid 2nd or 3rd round, can't remember which, and Vera was moving back against the cage of his own accord. Of course Randy's gonna follow him in. I'm not particularly fond of either of these guys. I enjoy a good grappling chess match... but most of Couture's are exactly like this. Vera just gets on my nerves. On the other hand. I'm a Huge fan of Both Hardy and Swick. Really didn't care who won that one, but I thought it was kinda funny that Swick's always knocking people for wanting to clinch him or take him down, and have seen him in previous fights talking shit in his opponents ear about hugging on him, or not standing.... So Swick comes in, catches a quick Mood Alterer on the button, and there he is trying to wrassle with Hardy. Hardy looked pretty amazing to me. Looked like he had no respect what-so-ever for Swick's power. Those counter Hook's hardy throws have some serious Power-Stroke to them... but he better work out another gameplan cause after using them to win his last 2 or 3 fights, GSPs gonna see them coming a mile out. Matt Brown is such a great fighter to watch. Really likes to work from any position. Winner and Pearson looked Phenominal. These Brit guys are coming in with some very creative and effective Striking. Still surprised Bisping beat Kang. Dennis looked like a completely different fighter in that last round. After that KO from NOWHERE, can't wait to see more of Gustavsson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauliedanger Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 Like the bogus machida fight, to be the champ you have to beat the champ. Couture's not "the champ". In fact, Couture was coming off back to back losses and this was his first fight back at 205. Vera, on the other hand, was on a 2 fight winning streak in the 205 division. So why do you think Vera should have to win convincingly to get the win and Couture just needed to not lose? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 What do you mean you have to beat the champ to beat the champ? Randy Couture is not a champion. You're not taking a belt. Just because a fighter has had success earlier in his career does not mean he should get biased judging. Now that said, I wasn't surprised by the scoring. With next to nothing happening in round 1/3, the lean'n'pray was clearly Octagon control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 Lets hope UFC 106 main even is better Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funky348 Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 If it was anyone else other than Randy then Vera wins that fight!! And i was shouting for randy! If vera did get the result this discussion wouldn't be happening in favour of randy winning Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
backelie Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 BS. I'm surprised there are people who think Vera got robbed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauliedanger Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 BS. I'm surprised there are people who think Vera got robbed. Did you see the in cage interview with Randy? He all but apologized for getting the win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iloveme8 Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 Two questionable decision victories. Two large in-game bets by me going on the fighter that won. Seeing a pattern? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 20, 2009 Report Share Posted November 20, 2009 Vera won it someone needs to fire the judges first Rua gets screwed then Vera. Vera even dropped randy and made him curl up in a ball... not even mentioning the fact that randy was holding vera's trunks for about a whole min and the reff didn't say nothing bout it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mentor Posted November 24, 2009 Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 another bad decision, i had this one 29-28 for Vera based on damage (which in my opinion is what matters anyway) i hate fighters which go out there to win based on just control (not saying Couture had that plan to begin with, but ended up like that) but i cannot understand how anyone could rank round 3 in favor of Couture, i mean in that round he did not control the fight (for got sake he got mounted!!!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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