Liquid Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 Hello Mike, What exactly are us gym owners supposed to get out of running a BUSINESS like gym? It is pretty much a fact that gyms make very little money if any at all. There is no reward for all the trouble that goes into running a gym. There is only RISK of losing your VIP. At the moment only way that running a gym makes any sense whatsoever is if you have access to millions of dollars so that you can run the gym at major loss for extensive period of time while enjoying 1 to 1 coaching sessions and 1 to 1 sparring sessions. I am not saying there is anything wrong with that and this topic is NOT about that. This topic is about gyms in general and especially gyms that do not have access to millions of dollars from get to go. When you run a public gym what happens is following: - you end up spending lot of time trying to get members to join so that you can afford to hire coaches - then you spend even more time trying to satisfy whatever members you happen to have in your gym, which leads having to hire more coaches - you end up fearing losing your VIP - you end up noticing that running a gym does not make money and that you will have trouble paying your loan back and realise you can do it but it is going to take 12 months of real life time, which is quite a lot of time when converted to game time. Anyway something like that. - you have absolutely no control over sparring sessions, which means people will ruin your own personal sparring training by having their useless rated fighters jump into your elite sparring sessions The bottom line is that gym owners get NOTHING out of running the gym. Not money, not better training, nada, zip, zero. There is NO risk - reward ratio. There is only the risk of losing VIP. What needs to be changed/done: Basically what one should realistically be able expect from running a gym in general is to make a good solid profit OR/and get better training/advantage in training for his fighters due to being able to (as the gym owner to) micro manage training done in the gym making sure your own fighters get optimal training. Remember running a gym should NOT be charity and service provided to people for practically free. One always expects to get something out of running a business. Sure you can charge 600 per week but people do want those elite coaches to go with the 600 fee, which means you wont do any profit that matters at all. - Give gym owners either slightly increased training or possibility to make good realistic profit. - In order to give gym owners slighlty increased training give gym owners extra sparring slots for their personal use only. This way gym owners get something out of running the gym, which is little better sparring as no one can put their useless/competent/whatever fighter on those slots to ruin the sparring. OR give gym owners control over every single individual sparring slot so that gym owner can LIMIT the skill level for that specifc sparring slot. For example gym owner could limit mon AM wrestling sparrring limited to figthers who have at least strong in wrestling skill. No fighter who has less than strong in wrestling skill could join the mon am wrestling sparring session. Looking at the current situation I am personally half tempted to kick out all people and just run a private sparring gym with conditioning coach as that way I would at least get great quality sparring. I can always put my fighters to some other gym for secondary skill training when needed to or just spar and do conditioning in my little private sparring gym till I have high enough main skills to close down my sparring gym, join a gym with coaches and forget sparring for next 6 months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VeikkoK Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 Good post. I agree something could be changed, can't really tell what, but Liquid had good points. I have cardio/sparring gym, and I'm afraid to change the concept as I don't want to risk losing VIP. And at the moment I get nothing out of my gym. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MMATycoon Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 I don't like the idea of just giving the gym owner better training. That just seems a bit artificial. You're more than welcome to discuss with other gym owners what you think could be done though, in particular how you could make them more profitable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
backelie Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 What are you supposed to get out? 1) Money - which is possible, pretending like there are no profitable gyms out there would be pretty ridiculous, but it might take a long time to get there. 2) The enjoyment of the actual running of the business. If you don't enjoy seeing more people join, being able to bring in new coaches, seeing your business plan work and think contacting new people is too much of a hassle, then maybe running a gym just isn't for you. There are over 300 gyms in the game, of course a whole bunch of them are private or coachless, but even if there are as little as 100 "real" gyms can you really claim they're all in a bad spot risking their VIP with nothing at all to gain? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 Well said backelie! When I ran Tokyo Shootfighters I didn't make any money when the business was growing. After the gym got to where it is now I got few G's a week out of it. It was really nice to see that it all worked out in the end and I was successfull in making one of the top gyms in the game. After all this it got pretty boring. After you have 12 elites in and steady fighter base theres not much to do really. So this is where I'd like to see something change. If someone could come up with an idea that gives more depth to running a gym would be GREAT! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 When you run a public gym what happens is following: - you end up spending lot of time trying to get members to join so that you can afford to hire coaches - then you spend even more time trying to satisfy whatever members you happen to have in your gym, which leads having to hire more coaches - you end up fearing losing your VIP - you end up noticing that running a gym does not make money and that you will have trouble paying your loan back and realise you can do it but it is going to take 12 months of real life time, which is quite a lot of time when converted to game time. Anyway something like that. - you have absolutely no control over sparring sessions, which means people will ruin your own personal sparring training by having their useless rated fighters jump into your elite sparring sessions Let me start by saying that you can indeed turn a profit running a gym and a healthy one at that. Break out your calculator and crunch the numbers. A gym won't be as profitable as an Org or a Nutrition company, but a combination of more time and money comes with running these businesses. It seems you are overly concerned with losing your VIP, which is understandable, but this is a supply and demand market just like any other and fighters will always need a good place to train. Give them a good place to train at a good price and you'll be surprised how quickly you'll fill your place up. You will of course have to keep your customers happy, this is true no matter what kind of business you run. Success won't happen overnight, so be patient. Sparring is a bit tricky and is all about give and take. Outline a sparring schedule and ensure your best fighters participate so that you are contributing as well. If your gym members make gains as a whole, the entire place gets better. If you have a schedule outlined...say 1 sparring session per week per discipline...that leaves 8 open training slots to get some focused sparring done on your own. Other than that be creative if you don't want to run a standard or fitness/sparring gym. One poster in this thread alone has broken away from this mold already and his business model is so cool he has seen business from me personally...and I run an elite level gym. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 I have my own gym in Helsinki and although it is not a gold mine, I still like running it.. As for losing your VIP.. That's not going to happen if you have any idea what you're doing. Sure, if you hire 12 elite coaches straight from the start you're probably going to have some difficulties and possibly lose your VIP. But then you can only blame yourself.. Read the forums and understand that it is going to take some time before the gym grows.. If you need any help with your gym, don't be afraid to ask. There are plenty of helpful people in the forum and chat.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 It's not hard to profit on a gym but on an elite gym it's hard to get a profit. The ability to charge more then 600 dollars to attract only the elite would be nice. Or private training sessions for members. THey would have to purchase a coach for a session at an extra price to their regular gym fees would be awesome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeviAJones Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 I think that, similar to orgs, gyms should have virtual customers. This could be based on the hype of the fighters that attend the gym. I know for a fact that Arizona Combat Sports here in Tempe has way more amateurs and hobbyists because of how successful their pro team is. These extra funds could be used to further improve the gym for the "pros" (our fighters) and would create a new dynamic to the game: negotiating to get better fighters in your gym and/or advertising what great fighters your gym has. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 Levi has a good point. I like that point and would be a good excuse to give gyms a hype rating. Same with fighting orgs really. Also it's all in who you know here. If you have a couple of friends band together with their fighters not only does that give you some security but it's easier to please them (they are your friends after all). Even though I'm not a gym owner, I have a buddy who is. He and I talk constantly about the prices and what we need to do get another coach for our fighters. I think the key thing is to evaluate the competition in your area and try to offer something that either isn't there or not much of. If you can afford an elite coach, go for it. If not try to get as high as you can and see what you can do about keeping your classes low. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 I'd certainly be in favor of improving this aspect of the game, but unfortunately I don't have any good ideas, off the top of my head. The threat of losing VIP status is way too heavy a punishment for a failing business, given what we get out of them. People who don't run a business are rewarded with extra time on their VIP account, while business owners - most of whom are contributing something to the game - are 'rewarded' with the Sword of Damocles. With most of my fighters already drowning in money they can't spend, any money my gym makes will be superfluous. The only actual advantage to operating a gym that I can see is the ability to set the training regimen to suit my own fighters. Of course, a bizarre training schedule or a schedule that changes frequently would risk alienating my customers. It's hard to say that the whole exercise has been worth it, but at the moment I don't have anything to offer beyond vague dissatisfaction. If I could go back in time and stop myself from opening the gym, I probably would do so. Live and learn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 I think the simple solution would be to raise the maximum gym fees to $1000 per week. This create more diversity in gym types and pricing, eliminate the need for private gyms, and create a larger return potential for successful gym owners. However I think Levi's idea would add more realism, and enhance the game play for all of us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 I think the simple solution would be to raise the maximum gym fees to $1000 per week. This create more diversity in gym types and pricing, eliminate the need for private gyms, and create a larger return potential for successful gym owners. However I think Levi's idea would add more realism, and enhance the game play for all of us. I think that would only work if the extra income could somehow be used to make the gym better. Right now, it's pretty easy to reach a gym's ceiling. All you can do is hire more coaches. Eventually, we'll have gyms with the maximum number of Elite coaches, all training a single skill all week. This may have happened already. One of the problems I see with the player-run gym system currently is that it's too easy to reach the maximum quality possible. Elite-level gyms aren't quite a dime a dozen, but it's close. If I were to redesign the system, I would give gyms a Hype score, and attach the ability to hire coaches to the gym's Hype, including the number of coaches already present on an accelerating scale. In other words, an Elite jiu-jitsu coach would be less inclined to work at a gym that had low-quality fighters training there, and less inclined to work at a gym that already had an Elite jiu-jitsu coach. Right now, the fighter development system is such that Elite fighters are rare. The #1 P4P fighter currently, Jin Sen, is Strong-Strong-Superb-Purple. Is there even a single fighter in the entire game who has a score of Elite in one of the four disciplines? There probably shouldn't be a single Elite coach in the entire game yet, either. If coaches need to be better than the fighters they train, the best gyms in the world right now - a gym that guys like Jin Sen might train at - should probably have Remarkable and Wonderful coaches. But I don't know if implementing something like this would make running a gym any more engaging, so it may not directly address the question being posed here. p.s. I know that Coaches don't train the four disciplines, but the skills Coaches train are hidden from view. A game moderator might be able to tell us how many fighters have reached Elite in any of the skills that Coaches actually train. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 Raising gym fees would do something. The reasoning behind the cap on the wiki is so elite gyms don't all turn out the same. Yet they do anyway, because they are expected to, and have to operate near the break even point if not at a loss. I've crunched the numbers. Lets look at your typical elite gym CTT: http://www.mmatycoon.com/gympublic.php?gmid=42 7 double elites and 5 single elites. Forgetting the double upfront signing fees, that is 48 750 a week. Without upkeep costs or equipment costs, that means you would need 81.25 members (paying 600) to break even. The capacity is 80. Its charity to the city of Montreal. Its not a profit making machine. Competition from imprudent new Gym owners forces the gyms to engage in risky behaviour for members. Especially in the early stages. It would be nice for a little love for the Gym owners is all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 it wouldn't eliminate the private gyms in the least. Private gyms are a perk from knowing someone or running your own; and in most cases I've seen they have better training. The only thing I can think of that this would do would be allow ultra elite gyms for only the extremely wealthy fighters. That would pull them out of the lower priced gyms and possibly help thin out some of the classes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 The quality could be improved though. 12 double elite training 100 guys would be nothing compared to the same staff training 30 guys. Gym managers would have the choice to provide smaller class sizes or higher profit margins, and would have to adjust over time due to other elite gyms possibly having better ratios and fighters moving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
backelie Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 Mike doesn't want higher fees to the point where it allows all gyms to end up being 1-2 guys per coach. I don't think there's a great need for better gyms than today's current elites, and I also think the best gyms of today already have some room for improvement within the current limits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkBerry Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 I don't think the answer is being able to raise fees to 1000 but something has to be done. I have a gym and a lot of people think i am making quite a bit of money from it, i am not. Expenses(Total) Coach wages : $74,750.00 Cleaning Costs : $ 4,626.58 Equipment Costs : $ 3,000.00 Coach signing fees : $ 39,000.00 Loan repayments : $ 11,634.61 Income Gym fees : $ 97,595.00 Net Profit : $ -35,421.19 I'm not at risk of losing VIP in anyway i got the full 50K. I'm going to be adding 2 more coaches next week which will be another 10k+ signing fees. Gym owners do need a little love, i just don't know what is needed to be done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djohn Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 I think that, similar to orgs, gyms should have virtual customers. This could be based on the hype of the fighters that attend the gym. I know for a fact that Arizona Combat Sports here in Tempe has way more amateurs and hobbyists because of how successful their pro team is. These extra funds could be used to further improve the gym for the "pros" (our fighters) and would create a new dynamic to the game: negotiating to get better fighters in your gym and/or advertising what great fighters your gym has. Dude. This would be fucking Awesome Mane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
backelie Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 I don't think the answer is being able to raise fees to 1000 but something has to be done. I have a gym and a lot of people think i am making quite a bit of money from it, i am not. Expenses(Total) Coach wages : $74,750.00 Cleaning Costs : $ 4,626.58 Equipment Costs : $ 3,000.00 Coach signing fees : $ 39,000.00 Loan repayments : $ 11,634.61 Income Gym fees : $ 97,595.00 Net Profit : $ -35,421.19 I'm not at risk of losing VIP in anyway i got the full 50K. I'm going to be adding 2 more coaches next week which will be another 10k+ signing fees. Gym owners do need a little love, i just don't know what is needed to be done. Loan repayments isn't an actual expense, looking at the above figures you're ca 24k in the red after having put 39k into coach signing fees, ie you're doing good progress on paying them off. Why add more coaches at this point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkBerry Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 Loan repayments isn't an actual expense, looking at the above figures you're ca 24k in the red after having put 39k into coach signing fees, ie you're doing good progress on paying them off. Why add more coaches at this point? Because the members of the gym want it, i need to keep them happy. Don't need them going to one of the many other gyms in the area. If i left it as it is it would take months to get the money to 0, that is if i can keep the member numbers high. I anticipate that if i add more coaches now i will see the rewards later on. Don't really want to sit on my hands and do nothing while not gaining any benefit from my own gym. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 well I have been running my own gym for months now. I have also ran a supp company, clothing company, bookie, and org so I have a handle on all of them. if you want to make money sure the orgs the route to go, but money after a certain point is useless and if you have VIP you have 10 fighters and after about 4-5 fights they get contracts big anuff to take care of all their needs. Supp companys really don't make all that much money, hell my fighters make more then any company other then an org does or has. And to gyms yes they dont make a lot of money but they are cool. While I'm sure they can be improved for made funnier I have almost all my fighters in St. petes so for me having a gym thats low in memebers (max 50) with 10 elite coaches is all gravy for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 Only change I'd like to see to gyms currently is a hype meter based off who trains at said gym. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 Gyms like orgs and the other companies should have hype levels ... The hype level could be based on a formula - something that takes into consideration fighters in that gyms personal hype and championship holders. Then you can institute an idea like Levi's where "non-pro" - registrants would join the gym as a weekly bonus ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 Having not run a gym these comments cann only be taken at face value. Trainers - If there were a limited amount of trainers within the game, such as in football there are not an infinate amount of elite coaches, that as well as being able to train them up, that way new gym owners could get trainers on the cheap and train them. Maybe the possibility of trainers having contracts like fighters, then a certain time period before the contract was up then other gyms could make contact with the said trainers and lure them away. Sparring sessions - I personally dont think this is too out of the realms, I knnow a guy that owns his own mauy thai gym in RL he uses the time that the gym is empty (hour slots during the day) to train himself, this ha worked for him as he is a European Champion and considered to be one of the best super heavyweights in the country!!! If you have it use it. Hype - I think should be a factor with gyms, word of mouth in RL goes a long wway in any industry and i have not even looked at gyms because of there reputation. Again, i dont know how gyms run and i may just be making points that already exist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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