Shady Tactics

[Guest]

This is pretty funny. What does calling it a "scumbag move" have to do with you or your alliance? He questioned your motive in this particular case, not your moral fiber.

 

And MrClean, you "used to take his lunch money"? Really?

[jacky67]

MrClean is not Clean at all .

[TK]

I agree with you. My biggest problem is it does hurt people. Doing it one time may not hurt more than any other thing that you mentioned that goes on. But what if this isnt just done a couple times. With an Alliance like Halo(i dont think they were involved here) what would keep all the top ranking managers from picking up every guy of value to an Org and dumping him in Vendetta? Vendetta would never have to negotiate a real deal again. As an Org woner there would be no way to compete with that. The hardest thing about running an Org is convincing people to fight for you. Its not easy and its not cheap. I dont think this should be a witch hunt that it seems to be tunring into. But i dont want this to become the norm either.

 

 

I've done this sort of thing once. Kratorius is the first and likely last FA I'll try to acquire like this. I've seen it being done by others for over 18 months, and with far, far worse contracts. Why did I do it? Because a manager of one of the top fighters in the org asked me to. That's not an excuse or me trying to deflect any criticism, I take full responsibility for it.

 

I was going to PM the org managers to tell them to try to pick him up and to fight with us and they're open to rengeotiate the deal. Anyone who's ever fought in VENDETTA knows I run it for the fighters' sakes, not mine. I make money no matter what, so I give them the fights they want, on the terms they want. I've never forced anyone to take a fight. You should know this having had a fighter with us for a long time.

 

You'll also have seen me send out regular PM's offering people money and help or advice, so you know I'm anything but shady, and run an excellent org. We've got fighters from most of the highest ranked and most respected managers in the game. I've had a couple of disagreements in the year we've been running, but only with those not being fair themselves.

[Guest]

Phil was my original fighter and I had him for 11 fights. I think that was a completely different situation? Simmons was also Roy's fighter from the beginning. And we were happy to re-neg for Phil when asked to.

 

Just pointing that out since well, this is an entirely different situation.

Why? the manager that will pick this guy up will find himself in the same situation...and like i said before i don't think there's nothing wrong.

That's why Mike give us the opportunity to look at the contracts.

[Guest]

I'm not arguing for either side here Damian. I don't really want to get involved in this debate. I'm just saying the debate is about picking up a FA just to take all his money and put him in your org.

 

I didn't pick up any FA's using my rank to just put into my org - ever. I did put a fighter that I had created over a long period of time in a fair contract to my organization. I also left money on the fighter, as I've done with every fighter I release (unless it was a failed project or something). I'm just saying, it wasn't exactly the same situation.

[Face Kicker]

My pop corn is bigger than yours!!

 

 

oh yeah?? OH YEAH!??!? well now i'm eating pizza, so SUCK ON THAT!!!

 

[Guest]

Ridiculous post. Of course it's not, "a scumbag move no matter how much you pay the fighter"

 

Would releasing someone with a 100k/100k deal be a "scumbag move"? Only an idiot would think so.

I didn't know you were such a douchebag. If you thought it that every manager would be happy to accept that contract than you wouldn't have done this, you would've waited till the fighter was picked up. There are managers in the game who don't want their fighters in an organization ran by a douchebag, not even for a 100k/100k deal. Taking away the freedom of the next manager to choose where he signs his fighter is a scumbag move, no matter what the contract is and only a idiot would think that it isn't.

[TK]

This is pretty funny. What does calling it a "scumbag move" have to do with you or your alliance? He questioned your motive in this particular case, not your moral fiber.

 

And MrClean, you "used to take his lunch money"? Really?

 

 

No, my integrity, and that of Barn and the alliance, was questioned.

[Guest]

No, my integrity, and that of Barn and the alliance, was questioned.

 

I don't see how. All I see is you reading too much into Matty's posts. This might be a mistake on your part, or a frenzied mob eager to lynch you. I dunno, I have no horse in this debate. All I know is that I personally don't think it's a good thing to do for reasons Crisse highlighted.

[TK]

I didn't know you were such a douchebag. If you thought it that every manager would be happy to accept that contract than you wouldn't have done this, you would've waited till the fighter was picked up. There are managers in the game who don't want their fighters in an organization ran by a douchebag, not even for a 100k/100k deal. Taking away the freedom of the next manager to choose where he signs his fighter is a scumbag move and only a idiot would think that it isn't.

 

 

Freedom of what manager? The manager who he doesn't have? The manager who might pick him up? The manager who can quite clearly see what kind of contract he has, and have the ability to PM me if he wants the fighter but not the contract?

 

You don't have the brain capacity to understand that it's a business game and business was conducted. Granted, not they way I usually do things, but his contract isn't a piss take and frankly all this shit being slung is ridiculous.

[Guest]

No, my integrity, and that of Barn and the alliance, was questioned.

It's not questioned it's reported missing. We're long past questioning.

[TK]

I don't see how. All I see is you reading too much into Matty's posts. This might be a mistake on your part, or a frenzied mob eager to lynch you. I dunno, I have no horse in this debate. All I know is that I personally don't think it's a good thing to do for reasons Crisse highlighted.

 

 

You can't see it? Seriously?

 

The title of the thread and the majority of the subsequent posts are centred around what some perceive to be "shady tactics." I've personally been called a bunch of names by a few people, which I don't mind so much. But, the TS and Matty questioned the actions, and therefore integrity, of my alliance and Barn.

[Guest]

You don't have the brain capacity to understand that it's a business game and business was conducted. Granted, not they way I usually do things, but his contract isn't a piss take and frankly all this shit being slung is ridiculous.

I laugh at that. Please stop acting like it's too hard for you to understand that there might be managers who don't want to be in your organization. Again, if you didn't understand that you wouldn't have done this.

 

You're taking away the chance of people who are interested in the fighter but not in your organization to pick up the fighter and choose where to sign him. You deserve all the shit you are getting. And the way you defend yourself just serves as another confirmation of what a douchebag you are.

[TK]

It's not questioned it's reported missing. We're long past questioning.

 

 

 

Lol, coming from you, that's pretty funny stuff. Much better than your normal petty sniping and simple insults.

[PBR]

there are a bunch of managers that do this -- now i havent looked or know what kind of contract he was signed too but as stated you can see now and always get with the org owner first

 

 

 

also i have not kept up with the entire thread due to stupid stuff so might be more going on

[j666]

this is very interesting. i never knew this sort of practice was frowned upon (given it was a decent contract n not some bullshit).

 

i got no beef either way really...i will say this tho. i've had fighters in some highly respected orgs and every time i've released a fighter (except in the really old non-vip days), he was re-signed (sometimes with an accepted fight offer) prior to release and i drain all money out of his account. i usually leave the supps and clothes (maybe delete the custom stuff), pay for the move to the org's city (if he's from out of town) and unless there's an accepted fight offer, i always reset the sliders lol.

[Guest]

You can't see it? Seriously?

 

The title of the thread and the majority of the subsequent posts are centred around what some perceive to be "shady tactics." I've personally been called a bunch of names by a few people, which I don't mind so much. But, the TS and Matty questioned the actions, and therefore integrity, of my alliance and Barn.

 

Sounds like someone shit in your cereal this morning.

 

The title of this thread points to this particular situation, and so does the OP.

 

Let's go through all of Matty's posts, shall we?

 

Its funny that we'd see a thread where AA gets lambasted for doing something very similar to this while someone from an arguably 'respected' Alliance does this, and everyone says 'Its part of the game'!

 

Kinda hypocritical of the community there, guys - you either think its a scumbag move or you don't - you can't alter your opinion based on who is doing it!

 

Jackson - This is why I've been saying that fighters should not be able to be released while under contract.

 

Here he calls the game community hypocritical for not treating similar incidents the same way.

 

I think the issue isn't necessarily looking out for the dumbass, but the noob who doesn't know better...

 

Couple of scenarios that play out in a situation like this:

 

a ) managers don't want to be tied down to 5 fights at 4/6 and don't pick up the fighter and he retires

b ) manager picks up fighter, requests release, and is released

c ) manager picks up fighters, requests release, org owner tries to screw over manager further, manager either re-sacks or sits out contract

d ) manager picks up fighter, doesn't know better because he is a noob, and is stuck in a 5-fight contract at rather low pay

 

In most of those situations, that sounds like its giving too much power to the org owner (and I'm an org owner). On the other hand, for org owners signing fighters and the fighters being sacked mid-contract, this prevents org owners being screwed by that. Seems win-win (even if I know Mike hates it!)

 

This is about situations like the one mentioned in the OP.

 

Yeah, this is the part that is most mind-boggling to me. All these people that think that 1/4000/6000 for 5 fights is a good contract for this guy, please come to me when you have a FA because I think you'll be pleasantly surprised! On the open market, that guy gets at least 10k/7k/7k - and likely more.

 

 

 

So, we're at the point in our in-game society with rather than trying to improve it, we're resorting to beating others to the "scumbag-punch". Surely that can't be your argument here, can it? And, considering I had my eye (as I always do) on the FAs without contracts that I wanted to offer contracts to for Blitz, and got the following response from Barnabas, I'm pretty sure you knew exactly what you were doing here:

 

Again he questions this particular action and your handling of it.

 

I'm not labeling you as anything - I am just reading your posts.

 

And let's not intimate that I'm taking shots at Barn or Halo here. My comment you referenced was more in the hypocrisy of others who bash AA, but don't do the same to a group that is more 'popular' if you will. However, with how this thread is going, I don't blame you for trying to change the subject here!

 

 

Explains itself.

 

I'm not sure what your post is saying here, Barnabas, so I can't comment on most of it, but I can guarantee you that if you had responded to my in-game PM telling me to shoot a contract over, I would have sent 4 fights, 10-15k/7k/7k. If you then accepted it, funneled all of the money off of him, and then sacked him, you'd be on my shit list!

 

Edit: And where we are going with this thread is trying to create a system to protect org owners and managers alike from 'scumbags' (since that seems to be the popular term although I much prefer 'douchenozzles' ). As community members, we have two options - try to improve the community or try to take advantage of it.

 

This is the closest thing to you getting called anything by Matty so far, and seeing that he's made a big point out of referring to the action so far, it's natural to assume he isn't gunning for you as a person even if the phrasing was a bit unfortunate.

 

That wasn't too hard, was it?

[Guest]

It's not questioned it's reported missing. We're long past questioning.

I just hope you're not the original Steeve...

[TK]

I laugh at that. Please stop acting like it's too hard for you to understand that there might be managers who don't want to be in your organization. Again, if you didn't understand that you wouldn't have done this.

 

You're taking away the chance of people who are interested in the fighter but not in your organization to pick up the fighter and choose where to sign him. You deserve all the shit you are getting.

 

 

 

I'm not taking away the freedom of his manager, he doesn't have a manager, and anyone who wants him can talk to me about him.

[toejam98]

TK you may be a good dude, but the move is still considered shady. Trying to deny it's shady with some of the arguments you've used just kinda made you look bad even if your not.

[Guest]

TK you may be a good dude, but the move is still considered shady. Trying to deny it's shady with some of the arguments you've used just kinda made you look bad even if your not.

 

Yeah, this was phrased in a much better way than I did it. This is the gist of all the posts so far.

[HumanGoing]

I have to say, I'm a little surprised that everyone is making such a big deal of this. Matty, you were right to point out a double standard with regards to the reaction over AA's similar conduct. But honestly, I feel that the double standard is not that everyone is being too easy on TK, but rather that people were to hard on AA (which given the sorted history, is not really that surprising). Really in both cases, nothing that serious was done. Whenever I have released a fighter, I always let the org owner know first and often accept a new (decent) contract and a fight offer. I agree that it would have been a good move to leave the fighter with at least 2 or 3k in his account for training (which I feel is a gentlemanly thing to do whenever you release a fighter), but otherwise this really isn't that big of a deal. And the contract signed is decent enough, you really are splitting hairs over that. I sign contracts worth that much all the time with fighters that get higher offers, if I like the org and the owner (and VENDETTA seems like a good org.). I'm just saying that the negative reaction seems a little out of proportion, and I don't feel that this situation specifically represents a "shady" tactic or something otherwise damaging to the game community. TK is right, FAs stuck with extremely unfair contracts is more of a problem, I think we can all agree on that. TK did something that is actually pretty standard, but in a relatively unshady way. If we don't like that standard practice, that is a separate issue. But the blow back from this situation is a little undeserved.

[TK]

there are a bunch of managers that do this -- now i havent looked or know what kind of contract he was signed too but as stated you can see now and always get with the org owner first

 

 

 

also i have not kept up with the entire thread due to stupid stuff so might be more going on

 

 

No, it's just descended into petty insults and people trying to make themselves look good by quoting multiple posts, when it's obvious what's been going on.

 

It's a shame because most everyone who has joined in to attack me should know me better. It's disappointing because as most of these people should know, I've gone out of my way for a long time to help people, contribute positively in the forums, run a very well respected org and generally be a good member of the community. But, because a few people have taken offence to what is a very common practice, done much, much more unfairly by most, others have joined in, in typical forum style, to have pops or be smart-asses.

[Guest]

No, it's just descended into petty insults and people trying to make themselves look good by quoting multiple posts, when it's obvious what's been going on.

 

It's a shame because most everyone who has joined in to attack me should know me better. It's disappointing because as most of these people should know, I've gone out of my way for a long time to help people, contribute positively in the forums, run a very well respected org and generally be a good member of the community. But, because a few people have taken offence to what is a very common practice, done much, much more unfairly by most, others have joined in, in typical forum style, to have pops or be smart-asses.

 

You really have thin skin, don't you. What most of us (myself included) have said is that THIS PARTICULAR ACTION is shady. That doesn't make you, your friends, your cat or your neighbor shady. You yourself said earlier in this thread that "nothing is black and white", and still you resort to childish tantrums when people disagree on ONE action they find morally ambigious.

 

Please, tell me what a horrible person I am for questioning your motives in this particular case.

[HumanGoing]

No, it's just descended into petty insults and people trying to make themselves look good by quoting multiple posts, when it's obvious what's been going on.

 

It's a shame because most everyone who has joined in to attack me should know me better. It's disappointing because as most of these people should know, I've gone out of my way for a long time to help people, contribute positively in the forums, run a very well respected org and generally be a good member of the community. But, because a few people have taken offence to what is a very common practice, done much, much more unfairly by most, others have joined in, in typical forum style, to have pops or be smart-asses.

 

To be fair, I'm pretty sure someone like Matty isn't just trying to be a smart-ass. As he also runs a respected org and has also been a great community member, I feel that his criticisms are coming from a good place (a genuine concern for the game and the community). I do agree though that the backlash against you specifically is unreasonable given that it is a standard practice and that in this situation you acted much less unfairly than others. If the issue is with that common practice, then we can discuss possible changes to deal with that. But jumping on TK for this doesn't really seem productive or even really that justified.