Wrestling

[Erik]

This thread is based in part off the "The game has become biased toward sprawl and brawl-fighters" thread; along with a few of my own observations.

 

Starting with a fairly simple premise: wrestling is way too random in this game right now - the outcomes of having your takedowns slider on a (very reasonable) 5% are far too variable; the exact same fighter could happily go an entire round without trying for more than one takedown (at the 4 minute mark no less) or he could take the other guy down into full mount 20 seconds in.

 

In order to prevent this thread just being a (short) whinge, I present two proposed improvements.

 

1. Remove the outcomes of successful takedowns from the actual takedown attempt in terms of calculation (if it isn't already). So the takedown succeeds/fails on one criteria then the more detailed outcome -- takedown in half guard, takedown to guard, failed takedown to standing, failed takedown to clinch etc -- can be worked out on some other criteria with the eventual outcome being that takedowns into full mount are pretty much nonexistant (with side control being unlikely but still in the realm of possibility) on guys with remotely decent BJJ/TDD/Def Grap while still being possible on hopelessly outmatched fighters.

 

2. Add some kind of logic into how often a fighter will attempt a takedown, I've suggested a checkbox or similar to tell the fighter to go for a takedown in the opening minute or similar -- another (much more coding intensive, but vastly better) option is to implement some kind of code logic to compare moves performed by the fighter thus far in the fight to their sliders and increase their chances of performing moves they have done less of than their sliders indicate they should and vice versa. This would also help with other low % actions like clinching, high kicks, getting up, breaking clinches and combos.

[jbrookins]

Good sliderfu tends to favor sprawl n brawlers, doubt we will see any change

[Guest]

Good sliderfu tends to favor sprawl n brawlers, doubt we will see any change

 

Not really, wrestling being inconsistent as hell does.

[Erik]

Good sliderfu tends to favor sprawl n brawlers, doubt we will see any change

 

Even if this was relevant to the topic at hand (or even accurate), what the fuck is your point?

[Guest]

Even if this was relevant to the topic at hand (or even accurate), what the fuck is your point?

 

Everyone else is bad and I don't even know what the fuck.

 

I like the idea of failed takedowns to clinch. The checkbox would also be cool, but would you tie it to intelligence/experience?

[Grasman]

Good sliderfu tends to favor sprawl n brawlers, doubt we will see any change

Decent takedown sliderfu with a fighter good at following orders, makes for easy takedowns, There are just soem prerequisits that need to be in order.

A standup fighter with no chin gets sent to the free agents very fast, same with other bad hiddens.

Could be down to hiddens whether a fighter is good at takedowns or not? hmmmmm......

 

Obviously a fighter who is crap at following your gameplan, tries them at the wrong time constantly, is not going to be very successful in landing one, just like a stupðid one is going to struggle at landing that sub, even though he has sensational subs..

 

I have several GnP'ers, and takedowns have never been a problem for me, neither before nor after the changes,, even the fighters i class as my strikers, are getting the odd takedown agains fighters with much higher wrestling.

 

This seems to apply to my opponents as well, as i my guys often get taken down when i don't want the to get taken down.

 

So from my point of view, that part of the game is in reasonable balance.

[Guest]

It can work just great, but it's also really inconsistent. You risk a guy at 10% takedowns not shooting at all for 10 minutes and then spamming takedowns for the entire third round. Deamus suggested making it an intelligent slider (as opposed to the absolute slider it is currently), and combined with this checkbox it would make both strategic planning and intelligence/experience even more vital imo.

[Grasman]

It can work just great, but it's also really inconsistent. You risk a guy at 10% takedowns not shooting at all for 10 minutes and then spamming takedowns for the entire third round. Deamus suggested making it an intelligent slider (as opposed to the absolute slider it is currently), and combined with this checkbox it would make both strategic planning and intelligence/experience even more vital imo.

I agree fully with the slider aspect.

 

But have you ever had a fighter that was normally "good at following the gameplan", only to do stupid shit when it comes to takedowns?

To me, spamming takedowns for a whole round, while set at 10% on the TD slider, is a result of that hidden being crap, at least when set to 100% follow orders, while being stupid if doing that at 100% SHIG, e.g. just as much a part of the intended hidden outcome in the game as, lets say KO power, confidense and Heart.

 

People sack fighters in numbers to get rid of dodgy chins, but complain over bad takedown ability from (possibly) a stupid fighter or one thats bad at following orders......

 

Shouldn't people just sack them, like the chinless or pillowfisted ones?

 

Or is it maybe a case of people NOT wanting to sack those fighters because they have other hidden qualities, but suck at this part?

[Guest]

No, this is exclusively motivated by the possibility of more detailed gameplans from my side.

[Grasman]

No, this is exclusively motivated by the possibility of more detailed gameplans from my side.

 

I wasn't directing it at you, as in you were the one complaining,, it was was more a general speculation, as in if you had experienced that, as I never have experienced it with my fighters that are good at doing what i tell them to do in other aspects.

I have had some "dummies" in the past who didn't seem to do anything right, and they are long gone from my roster.

People have to take the bad aspects that come with the other good aspects,, like i noticed that most of my fighters that were fast learners, weren't that good fighters, and some of my SLOW learners are damn good fighters, and keep beating fighters with much higher stats.

But regardless of that, i sure would LOVE more gameplanning options.

[Erik]

The checkbox would also be cool, but would you tie it to intelligence/experience?

 

I'd rather not; intelligence and experience are pretty strong hiddens anyway. Plus even complete blockheads can remember 'takedown'.

 

 

Grasman: I've seen fighters in this game do complete genius things and completely retarded things, often the same fighter in the same fight - I'm inclined to attribute it to RNG at this point.. plus half the ramble is that takedowns to full mount are crazy.

[sergio]

I do not think it would be a good idea. The ground fighting is something we should think hard. Not everyone can be finalized. One submission is "one-hit K.O." And takedowns are valued in the game. If it increases the chances to take an opponent to the ground, the fights could be very "tied"

[Erik]

I do not think it would be a good idea. The ground fighting is something we should think hard. Not everyone can be finalized. One submission is "one-hit K.O." And takedowns are valued in the game. If it increases the chances to take an opponent to the ground, the fights could be very "tied"

 

I think it's trying to communicate with us but I have no fucking idea what it's saying.. anyone with a translation?

[HumanGoing]

I think it's trying to communicate with us but I have no fucking idea what it's saying.. anyone with a translation?

 

I think he's basically saying that any changes to the ground game need to be particularly well thought out. Because subs end a fight and takedowns themselves score heavily, any changes to those mechanics would have a huge impact on the game. I think he's just saying he's afraid that the proposed changes could make the ground game overpowered.

 

Personally, I kind of agree with Grasman here. Granted, I've always preferred stand up fighters, but I do have a few wrestlers with solid gnp, and I haven't had a problem executing it in their fights. If anything, my wrestling has gotten more effective in my more recent fights.

[byrk]

lol, two last fights, both have ground, in both got taken down into full mount and finished.

while getting finished by dominant ground specialist isnt particulary suprising (second one), getting finished with 4 ground strikes while being better ground fighter is quite suprising.

and ... how often does takedown into full mount happen...

[Grasman]

I'd rather not; intelligence and experience are pretty strong hiddens anyway. Plus even complete blockheads can remember 'takedown'.

 

 

Grasman: I've seen fighters in this game do complete genius things and completely retarded things, often the same fighter in the same fight - I'm inclined to attribute it to RNG at this point.. plus half the ramble is that takedowns to full mount are crazy.

Is it possible that some of the genius things the fighter did was down to one hidden (confidense, follow gameplanning), while the stupid ones were down to a low intelligence hidden, or something in that direction.

 

If you go 100% follow orders, it would be the "ability to follow gameplan hidden" that determines what he does and the timing of it.

While stupid shit can happen if you only go 80% follow orders, as it is partly the "intelligence/experience" that his actions are based on 20% of the time. So if he has rolled a 150 on the "ability to follow the gameplan", he should do whatever you have told him to do with the sliders, picking the best moments to execute those orders 80% of the time, while if he rolled 10 on the intelligence hidden, he will possibly do the most idiotic moves like trying a takedown (wile being useless at wrestling and td) or throw kicks without having any kicking ability etc.... 20% of the time.

 

By all means, correct me if i'm wrong,, but this is the way i see it more or less.

[LanceTempleton]

So to summarize: The RNG game is too random sometimes? lol

[Guest]

The problem is that people want to try a takedown, but they don't want to fail a bunch of takedowns.

 

A solution is a "Min attempts between takedowns" setting. If you set it to 10, then the 10th 'move' since the previous TD attempt would be a takedown attempt.

 

I haven't put any thought into the consequences of this, but it'd certainly remove some of the fear of making sure you try a td, but scared that you're fighter will randomly do a ton of them, or not enough via randomization.

[Face Kicker]

anyone know if all failed takedown attempts take the same amount of energy? i have a feeling that might be something that could be adjusted, so that some failed attempts are just quick shots that don't really take much energy (about the same as a missed headkick or something). i've always wondered if the failed takedown text that says a fighter is "really struggling" to get it, or that he "slowly gets back to his feet" after failing to get the guy down, actually have meaning in regards to how much energy they lost from the attempt.

[Stu_Pidasol]

Is it possible that some of the genius things the fighter did was down to one hidden (confidense, follow gameplanning), while the stupid ones were down to a low intelligence hidden, or something in that direction.

 

If you go 100% follow orders, it would be the "ability to follow gameplan hidden" that determines what he does and the timing of it.

While stupid shit can happen if you only go 80% follow orders, as it is partly the "intelligence/experience" that his actions are based on 20% of the time. So if he has rolled a 150 on the "ability to follow the gameplan", he should do whatever you have told him to do with the sliders, picking the best moments to execute those orders 80% of the time, while if he rolled 10 on the intelligence hidden, he will possibly do the most idiotic moves like trying a takedown (wile being useless at wrestling and td) or throw kicks without having any kicking ability etc.... 20% of the time.

 

By all means, correct me if i'm wrong,, but this is the way i see it more or less.

 

A couple of things "ability to follow game plan" is actually "ability to adapt game plan" (I'm might be splitting hairs there if that what you meant anyway) which mean 2 different things obviously... I would say intelligence and experience would both play a part in the ability to execute the game plan.

 

FMO and SHIG - If you set your fighter to do 0% of something ie. Try takedowns even at 100% SHIG and having the stupidest fighter he will not try a takedown. SHIG doesn't turn your fighter into a brainless retard.

 

When I first started this game myself and a few others did some extensive testing on 100% FMO and 100% SHIG - you would be surprised at how little deviation between the actual fight stats and the orders that were set for them...

 

I do think that when their is a massive difference in wrestling then it should be much easier than it is to get the takedown.. A strong striker would get blown out of the water everyday of the week Vs a sensational one, just as a sensational wrestling should blow a strong one out of the water...

 

I do like the idea about the check box to when you want to make the "try takedown slider" active... It would bring a whole new dimension to scouting, in saying that you would need to have something similar for a striker to check as to when he wishes to defend strongly against takedowns... It would make the sliders page quite messy and with not all fights being uniform probably be hard to set up.

[guinepighamster]

Add a physical or hidden: recovery. Energy recovered between rounds (but total still adds up at the end to avoid people who fight->train->fight->train without rest)

 

Recovery:

Goes up with cardio?

Goes down with strength?

Can be independently trained?

 

Would benefit wrestlers and grapplers mostly I believe.

[thegroovemonkey]

So to summarize: The RNG game is too random sometimes? lol

[Erik]

So to summarize: The RNG game is too random sometimes? lol

 

There's RNG and there's RNG.. wrestling is pretty much a zero thought process at the moment; the only fighters getting anything out of wrestling (at the top) are the ones who don't actually need any kind of consistent takedown success (like Tonal and Tolonen) who have awesome striking and mostly use wrestling for the occasional TD to full mount instant win (or in less measured words: it's kickboxing tycoon with the occasional dice roll takedown).

[Fade2black]

I think Failed Takedown attempt energy sapping should be randomized or assigned to takedown ability / conditioning / wrestling or something. I am also a big fan of possible Failed takedown to Clinch mode

[Eveas]

Swee[s are too frequent and easy to land with inferior grappling. Nerf sweeps some and all will be golden for me. TD's are fine. I am afraid to take people down no matter how superior my ground stats are, because it seems so much easier to sweep someone into mount than it is to pass guard.