ajperok Posted July 25, 2012 Report Share Posted July 25, 2012 Before any decision on "speed" is decided, I think the following questions need to be answered. http://www.mmatycoon.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=31700 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajperok Posted July 25, 2012 Report Share Posted July 25, 2012 The problem I have or see and this is just opinion and personal experience is. When I create a fighter I want him to be sens/sens/exc/brown. How long is this going to take? A bloody long time. Will I ever get there probably not. I've gone through countless amount of days of vip cutting fighters who just don't cut it. They are slow learners, have no chin, no heart, no power so I'm bored of trying to get a decent platform to build on. And can't afford to keep cutting financially. Than there's I was around when you could train up cardio and strength real quick. When you could spar everyday with a spar bot 1 v 1, However, when every single fighter in the game ended up with every primary over exceptional, usually 2 elites, 3 or 4 elite physicals, and all your secondaries around sensational too, What was the sense of training at all? In the old days all the fighters ended up the same, uber maxed out in everything (even more so than today) Training and Fighter designs was hardly strategic, just an exercise in futility rewarding the most patient because we were all creating the same product. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duxwig Posted July 25, 2012 Report Share Posted July 25, 2012 I think the hidden criteria for a ground fighter differs from the hidden criteria of a stand up fighter. While I agree that the takedowns/ground game needs a bit tweaking, I think most of the problem lies in the 100% control/100% counter ground bottom scheme (for example if you're on 100% control/100% counter and the opponent is hitting you continously with GNP the ref should step in for your fighter not being active on the ground and trying to defend himself), and that you can make an arguement on both sides of the spectrum. You can point out how your elite takedowns fighter was 1/10 for takedowns, I can point out how my elite punches guy missed 20+ punches I thought he should of landed. There's a lot of things that factor into it. Some guys IRL just can't be taken down. Dispite their huge wrestling disadvantage, they stop takedowns and just never end up on their back for very long. I think if you make takedowns more effective, you should make the ability to stand up from the bottom a little bit more easier too (nothing drastic). Cuz right now 90% of the population rely on the ref to force the stand up. Since we're back to the "realism" debate, sure some very select few can defend takedowns all day long vs. an elite wrestler but a huge majority will be taken down pretty frequently(not taking into account standups/escapes/etc since thats different vein, and I'm fine w/ escapes/standups). Why is that not the case here then? I know it's a game and programming that is hard, but I'm being a devil's advocate. Taking the stance that whenever you reach x skill level its hard as hell for even an elite wrestler/elite TD/Elite physical to take you down is down right retarded. By that standard I propose that I should only need wonderful/exceptional striking defense to never get knocked out by and elite/elite all elite secondaries standup fighter because theres probably some MMA fighter out there w/ balls of steel, chin of diamonds, and can withstand some blows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minark Posted July 25, 2012 Report Share Posted July 25, 2012 I think the hidden criteria for a ground fighter differs from the hidden criteria of a stand up fighter. While I agree that the takedowns/ground game needs a bit tweaking, I think most of the problem lies in the 100% control/100% counter ground bottom scheme (for example if you're on 100% control/100% counter and the opponent is hitting you continously with GNP the ref should step in for your fighter not being active on the ground and trying to defend himself), and that you can make an arguement on both sides of the spectrum. You can point out how your elite takedowns fighter was 1/10 for takedowns, I can point out how my elite punches guy missed 20+ punches I thought he should of landed. There's a lot of things that factor into it. Some guys IRL just can't be taken down. Dispite their huge wrestling disadvantage, they stop takedowns and just never end up on their back for very long. I think if you make takedowns more effective, you should make the ability to stand up from the bottom a little bit more easier too (nothing drastic). Cuz right now 90% of the population rely on the ref to force the stand up. Yeah, I'm talking about through a career. There's wrestlers with 30 fights and elite wrestling and takedowns landing at 30 and 40% rates. There aren't elite striker with elite boxing and/or muay thai throwing at a 30-40% hit rate. A one fight deal I understand but this is an every fight difference. A striker will have a bad day but not every fight. A wrestler will have a bad every fight instead of a bad day. There are no top tier wrestlers who land with a decent percentage in most fights and then have the occasional 1/10, they just all land at the 3/10 or 4/10 rates. *EDIT* But I agree that for good defensive wrestlers, it should be slightly easier to get back to your feet but I also thing the ability to hug your opponent and get a stand up needs to be reduced as well. It should only happen in the case of the top fighter going high counter. If the top fighter is aggressive, the bottom fighter shouldn't be able to hug and get a stand up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortfuse122829 Posted July 25, 2012 Report Share Posted July 25, 2012 Yeah, I'm talking about through a career. There's wrestlers with 30 fights and elite wrestling and takedowns landing at 30 and 40% rates. There aren't elite striker with elite boxing and/or muay thai throwing at a 30-40% hit rate. A one fight deal I understand but this is an every fight difference. A striker will have a bad day but not every fight. A wrestler will have a bad every fight instead of a bad day. There are no top tier wrestlers who land with a decent percentage in most fights and then have the occasional 1/10, they just all land at the 3/10 or 4/10 rates. *EDIT* But I agree that for good defensive wrestlers, it should be slightly easier to get back to your feet but I also thing the ability to hug your opponent and get a stand up needs to be reduced as well. It should only happen in the case of the top fighter going high counter. If the top fighter is aggressive, the bottom fighter shouldn't be able to hug and get a stand up. I would agree with you here Ryan, I know that there are not very many fighters who have amazingly DEVASTATING from guard, as in the power of punches from guard is not very high. But i think you see plenty of real life fights where a fighter can spend 3-4 mins in guard and at least LAND their GNP. In this game it seems if you don't land your takedown past guard, or get a pass to a greater position in at least the first 30 seconds on the ground the ref will stand you up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warwynd Posted July 25, 2012 Report Share Posted July 25, 2012 I would agree with you here Ryan, I know that there are not very many fighters who have amazingly DEVASTATING from guard, as in the power of punches from guard is not very high. But i think you see plenty of real life fights where a fighter can spend 3-4 mins in guard and at least LAND their GNP. In this game it seems if you don't land your takedown past guard, or get a pass to a greater position in at least the first 30 seconds on the ground the ref will stand you up This right here! It seems like every fighter that isn't going monkey shit on the ground will end up getting the fight stood back up. I'm not talking about just my shitty fighters either. I see it all the time. Literally it reads something like this: Takedown into Gaurd The ref must be thinking about a standup Are you fucking kidding me... they literally hit the ground like 2 seconds ago and you want to stand them back up? Brock lesnar was on his back getting beat up for 4 1/2 minutes by Shane Carwin and the ref didn't stop the fight or stand them back up... granted Carwin was being extremely aggressive so maybe this was a bad example, but for fuck sakes let the fighters try something when they get the fight to the ground. I have a fighter (he does kind of suck) he was the second fighter I ever made in this game and he was not built right, but over time I have gotten his takedowns to exceptional, his Def Grap to exceptional and he is a brown belt in BJJ. His standup is pretty terribad still So in order to win he pretty much has to get the fight to the ground. This makes him a bit predictable I know, but for fuck sakes when I do get the fight to the ground and I am working to pass guard let me have a few seconds. The fight before last for this guy I landed the takedowns with pretty good regularity but every time I hit the ground the ref almost immediately stood us back up. I was beaten and battered over the course of three rounds to lose a decision, which by the way I don't know how you can get taken down 3 or 4 times in a round and still win it... Point is I don't think the sky is falling, I just think that the ground game needs a bit of a tweaking. In fact I would go so far as to say that it should probably be about the second highest priority of the game right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j666 Posted July 25, 2012 Report Share Posted July 25, 2012 i wonder how long it will take fuse to figure out that minark is not minard (as in ryan if 5th round fame)?...wait...DAMMET! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minark Posted July 25, 2012 Report Share Posted July 25, 2012 i wonder how long it will take fuse to figure out that minark is not minard (as in ryan if 5th round fame)?...wait...DAMMET! Lol. I was wondering why he kept saying minard. Wasn't sure if he was making fun of me or if he really didn't notice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goatacre Posted July 25, 2012 Report Share Posted July 25, 2012 Comparing a random retirement rate to MMArmy, with MMATycoon time frame, isn't even fair. MMArmy, your fighter can retire in a month. In MMATycoon, even with a random retirement rate, it's gonna be 1.5-3 maybe even 4 IRL years before that comes into effect. So I never understood why so many people cried a river over it. Well it's fairly obvious why: are you more attached to something that you have enjoyed for 2 weeks or 2 years? Auto-retirement with such a fast turnover creates an atmosphere of caring very little about it, as before you know it you'll have been through another couple of generations anyway. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with the idea (although my view is that there are less crude ways of effectively forcing a manager's hand in this than implementing auto-retirements). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortfuse122829 Posted July 26, 2012 Report Share Posted July 26, 2012 lol jbomb you been catching my idiocy all over lately, my apologies to whoever minark is, i see what i wanna see -- also i agree warwynd, i wouldn't mind seeing you be given more time to work from guard and GNP more accurate from guard but maybe make it where the damage done from there is drastically lower then mount. you could make standing up from guard a tad easier too to prevent a take down being an auto 5 mins on the ground -- also when my striker sweeps, why the hell is it so hard to stand up from top? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warwynd Posted July 26, 2012 Report Share Posted July 26, 2012 lol jbomb you been catching my idiocy all over lately, my apologies to whoever minark is, i see what i wanna see -- also i agree warwynd, i wouldn't mind seeing you be given more time to work from guard and GNP more accurate from guard but maybe make it where the damage done from there is drastically lower then mount. you could make standing up from guard a tad easier too to prevent a take down being an auto 5 mins on the ground -- also when my striker sweeps, why the hell is it so hard to stand up from top? Totally agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mentor Posted July 27, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 27, 2012 Maybe that the 30 odd year olds skills actually decline slowly over the years. I mean you can go on about guys like Randy but lets be honest when it came to him fighting the more younger athletic guys with skills they tore him apart (Liddell, Brock and Machida). Sure they are guys like Anderson Silva who seem to get better with age but injuries sideline him a lot longer now than they used to. He fights around 2 times a year compared to when he was younger fighting 3-4 times a year same with Dan Henderson. I am ok with that. I mean that fighters decline slightly faster once they hit their peak. That said, i think there should be a hidden in regards to peak. Some guys should peak earlier, others later Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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