Keeping an eye on the fight engine since the changes

[PBR]

well tried my first heavy counter fight with 100 grapple 100 takedown on counter moves -- well didnt go as planed or has people speak of -- http://www.mmatycoon...php?FTID=590331 -- landed 3 counter takedowns and at being almost 70% counter with 100 grapple and 100 takedown im sure he did more than 3 counter moves the entire fight so im still not sold on counter takedowns being overpowered

[duphus]

Not saying one way or the other but you got 1 reg TD and 3 counters TD's: so you got 1 of 13 on regular TD's and 3 for 3 on counters (forgetting the whole was there more the 3 counter attempts).

 

also I counted off the stats page that you did roughly 100 moves to his 125 moves so if you was 70% counter I would guess he was around 55 to 60% counter but move count moves with energy levels so hard to say for sure.

 

Just kind of talking out loud here!

[PBR]

Not saying one way or the other but you got 1 reg TD and 3 counters TD's: so you got 1 of 13 on regular TD's and 3 for 3 on counters (forgetting the whole was there more the 3 counter attempts).

 

also I counted off the stats page that you did roughly 100 moves to his 125 moves so if you was 70% counter I would guess he was around 55 to 60% counter but move count moves with energy levels so hard to say for sure.

 

Just kind of talking out loud here!

 

could be i dont try to guess what others were set at cause you can get close but depending on their confidence or shig it can make a huge difference -- with confident fighters just moving forward making more moves than non or low confident -- my point on it was if everyone saying you dont miss counter takedowns is b/s -- cause i have fought with piper 55 times now and know how he does -- just the 3 counter moves for an entire 5 round fight is not right so it shows that you do not land a counter takedown every time -- or i guess i could be the one fight that didnt

[duphus]

I think the main complaint is it's too easy to get one with low skills. Hell I got one in a test fight done just to see if you could get one with useless TD secs, low and behold I got one in 45 seconds of the first round, lol (WITH USELESS MIND YOU)

[PBR]

I think the main complaint is it's too easy to get one with low skills. Hell I got one in a test fight done just to see if you could get one with useless TD secs, low and behold I got one in 45 seconds of the first round, lol (WITH USELESS MIND YOU)

 

yea that maybe -- i havent tried it with anyone with no ground game -- and i would agree if that is the case

 

wish i would of just played normal game plan with piper was 9th had 3 fights went 2-1 (losing the piper fight) and dropped 8 spots -- lol -- sucks but simpson is a tough fighter so dont know if normal game plan would of done any good

[Erik]

I think the main complaint is it's too easy to get one with low skills. Hell I got one in a test fight done just to see if you could get one with useless TD secs, low and behold I got one in 45 seconds of the first round, lol (WITH USELESS MIND YOU)

 

That's just a problem with counters in general; your guy can land one even if he's shit at the skill.

[JLP]

That's just a problem with counters in general; your guy can land one even if he's shit at the skill.

I agree with that.

I also think counters should be very hard early in the fight and get progressively easier as the fight continues. I think its kind of absurd when you read a counter in the first few lines of a fight when a counter is timing based and it would have been impossible for a fighter to get an understanding of their opponents speed/timing that quickly. I'm not sure how hard that is to program though, maybe it could relate to your opponents energy level.

[shortfuse122829]

I agree with that.

I also think counters should be very hard early in the fight and get progressively easier as the fight continues. I think its kind of absurd when you read a counter in the first few lines of a fight when a counter is timing based and it would have been impossible for a fighter to get an understanding of their opponents speed/timing that quickly. I'm not sure how hard that is to program though, maybe it could relate to your opponents energy level.

 

I think energy levels play a large factor into it. That's why I think some of it is either a flaw in energy recover or energy expended by controlling or adv pos attempts on bottom. If the fighter on top isn't unleashing an assault and doing a ton of damage I don't think his energy advantage should be as big as it's 'perceived.' It seems like if you land a takedown in the first it just set's up those counter TD's later in the fight (unless the wrestler is getting owned on the feet and the energy levels are evened out that way) but if the stand-up is relatively even, it's very hard to keep fights standing

[JLP]

I think energy levels play a large factor into it. That's why I think some of it is either a flaw in energy recover or energy expended by controlling or adv pos attempts on bottom. If the fighter on top isn't unleashing an assault and doing a ton of damage I don't think his energy advantage should be as big as it's 'perceived.' It seems like if you land a takedown in the first it just set's up those counter TD's later in the fight (unless the wrestler is getting owned on the feet and the energy levels are evened out that way) but if the stand-up is relatively even, it's very hard to keep fights standing

Ive seen more than a few fights where a counter TD was landed in the first couple lines of text. That right now is possibly the most unrealistic thing going on in the simulation engine right now.

[PBR]

Ive seen more than a few fights where a counter TD was landed in the first couple lines of text. That right now is possibly the most unrealistic thing going on in the simulation engine right now.

 

i see plenty of fights where counter td's are landed right away in real life -- but also depends how aggressive the other fighter is -- if they come right out attacking its very easy to land a counter td -- unless they connect with their shots -- i see the point though on timing and all but also dont agree 100% that its not realistic to land one right away

[JLP]

i see plenty of fights where counter td's are landed right away in real life -- but also depends how aggressive the other fighter is -- if they come right out attacking its very easy to land a counter td -- unless they connect with their shots -- i see the point though on timing and all but also dont agree 100% that its not realistic to land one right away

Im sure it has happened but I cant recall a single fight where a fighter had his first strike miss and be countered into a TD in RL. I've seen it a few times already in the game. It should be a statistical rarity bordering on near impossibility.

[Guest]

Cain vs Big Foot 1.

 

Big Foot threw a leg kick, Cain caught it and took him down.

[JLP]

Cain vs Big Foot 1.

 

Big Foot threw a leg kick, Cain caught it and took him down.

Thats really a huge outlier because the speed difference is what made that happen. Id have no problem with it happening if the same relative speed difference was required in game to grab a counter td early. It would be like elite speed to competent.

The difference in the speed of the two fighters in that example is really disparate so it doesn't really correlate to a game where most fighters have very similar physicals.

[Stu_Pidasol]

This game is based off number though JLP - there is always going to be a chance of something happening that looks unrealistic. Nothing can be done about that.. Sure tweaking the formula may limit it, if in fact it's actually possible to tweak the formula to do that.

 

A counter is either succesful of not - can it be tweaked so that the probablity of a counter strike landing is higher than a takedown based on the respective energy levels of both fighters? Only Mike can answer than.

 

With so many fights happening on a daily basis the probablity of seeing these things happens increase - we get a massive sample size which shows any and all outliers.

[JLP]

I agree regarding the large sample size. In this game if you land a counter TD in the opening seconds of the round its such a huge advantage related to energy that it is difficult to overcome.

I'm just trying to offer suggestions on how we can tweak the engine a slight bit and weaken counter TD just a little bit. That's kind of the point of the thread.

[shortfuse122829]

That's been my stance kinda all along JLP, again I qualify this next statement by saying that counter TD may still need tweaked, but I wonder if it would still be perceived as being so over-powered if that early energy deficit were easier to overcome? (aside from being able to land w/ very little skills which is just absurd)

[Guest]

hey Mike, I was noticing this thing in every match ...

the commentator at the end of each round predicts the winner of each round ... and when we get the final result from the judges it is the very same ... but it would be much interesting if ..some controversial decision could happen in the very closely contested matches ....

and this narrator predicting the rounds kind of spoils us of the final decision, if it goes to a decision ...

just my opinion .... but please consider this ...

[LanceTempleton]

hey Mike, I was noticing this thing in every match ...

the commentator at the end of each round predicts the winner of each round ... and when we get the final result from the judges it is the very same ... but it would be much interesting if ..some controversial decision could happen in the very closely contested matches ....

and this narrator predicting the rounds kind of spoils us of the final decision, if it goes to a decision ...

just my opinion .... but please consider this ...

 

Decisions are different from the announcers all of the time...

[Kronix]

hey Mike, I was noticing this thing in every match ...

the commentator at the end of each round predicts the winner of each round ... and when we get the final result from the judges it is the very same ... but it would be much interesting if ..some controversial decision could happen in the very closely contested matches ....

and this narrator predicting the rounds kind of spoils us of the final decision, if it goes to a decision ...

just my opinion .... but please consider this ...

 

yeah this already exist and Bobby lee daniels is crying in a corner some where

 

Have a look for yourself

http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=585937

[Erik]

That's just a problem with counters in general; your guy can land one even if he's shit at the skill.

 

The more I think about it, the main problem with my own statement is that it ignores a key difference between takedowns and strikes in this game; if you land a punch with fuck all skill in punches it does less damage, if you land a takedown with fuck all skill in takedowns you still take the guy down.

 

Edit: Perhaps the solution is to add the difference between the attackers TD + Wrestling and defenders TDD + Wrestling to the defenders attempts to get up in the first 30sec after a takedown, that'd mean high level attacking wrestlers would have a bonus at stopping opponents getting up (because they secure their position well), but good defensive wrestlers could get up more easily immediately after the takedown (similar to how Chuck Liddell used to pop up really quickly).

[topologies]

The more I think about it, the main problem with my own statement is that it ignores a key difference between takedowns and strikes in this game; if you land a punch with fuck all skill in punches it does less damage, if you land a takedown with fuck all skill in takedowns you still take the guy down.

 

Edit: Perhaps the solution is to add the difference between the attackers TD + Wrestling and defenders TDD + Wrestling to the defenders attempts to get up in the first 30sec after a takedown, that'd mean high level attacking wrestlers would have a bonus at stopping opponents getting up (because they secure their position well), but good defensive wrestlers could get up more easily immediately after the takedown (similar to how Chuck Liddell used to pop up really quickly).

Is this statement proven? If it is, that would explain why some fighters don't show heavyhanded/KO power early in their career.

[JLP]

We are 6 months in since the engine adjustment, so I thought I'd give my thoughts on the engine now:

1. TD's are way overpowered in the scoring. One TD wins most rounds. Two TD's is a guaranteed round victory most of the time no matter the amount of damage recieved/given or who ends up on top for most of the round.

2. Counter TD's are far too easy to land. I've been getting them pretty consistently with mediocre to competent TD's. I have heard instances of fighters with below mediocre TD's getting them. I know of a fighter with useless TD's landing one. Just due to the fact that a TD wins most rounds, counter TD should be much harder to get than they are.

3. Clinchers are dead. When it is so much easier to get a TD than to get into the clinch these fighters are pretty much irrelevant. A clincher can still give a pure striker some problems, but a grappler really has nothing to fear from a clincher anymore. I'd like to see a % of failed TD attempts end up in the clinch both for realism and game balance.

4. Escapes, elbows and knees are all pretty much useless secondaries. Any fighter that needs escapes to get back to their feet will likely have to sink a lot of points into dgrapple and transitions to stay alive long enough to get to a position where escapes can be used. Clinch is totally nerfed and elbows and knees are still hindered by their clunky slider settings. I'm sure there are instances where these secondaries are still helpful, but personally I'd rather have those points sunk into more relevant secondaries.

5. Dgrapple and strike d are probably the most important secondaries in the game now.

6. Takedown D over wonderful/exceptional level is likely a waste of points. You are getting taken down anyway. It seems to me that having wonderful TD and TDD is far better in avoiding TDs than if you had elite TDD and below mediocre TD's. It also gives you a way to mix in a round stealing TD from time to time.

7. A fighter over 31/32 years of age with any kind of injury history will go down the shitter very quick and there is nothing you can do about it. I still wont choose "never gets injured" but I will take injury history into account when I am planning my fighters career and build. If you have high injuries you need to have high physicals so when they fall apart you can still get a game year or two of competition in.

 

Overall I think the engine change was great and brought a lot more balance to the game. I'd like to see a slight nerf to TD's and counter TD's and have failed TD's end in the clinch around 20% of the time to get a little more balance back into the game. The chance of getting into the clinch needs to be adjusted as well, right now it is just too low to be relevant as a strategy. I didn't like how hard the age/injury degradation seemed to hit. Lots of my fighters' skills got hammered and that wasnt fun at all.

[PBR]

We are 6 months in since the engine adjustment, so I thought I'd give my thoughts on the engine now:

1. TD's are way overpowered in the scoring. One TD wins most rounds. Two TD's is a guaranteed round victory most of the time no matter the amount of damage recieved/given or who ends up on top for most of the round.

 

 

http://www.mmatycoon...php?FTID=599989 -- got taken down 3 times in 1st -- although didnt make it to score cards commentary stated Overeem dominated the round even with getting taken down 3 times -- had a few other fights will look up where taken down couple times and still win rounds

 

got taken down twice in two rounds and still won the rounds easily http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=592779

 

taken down twice in first and still dominated the round http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=590734

 

there are just in my last 20 fights i know plenty more

[poraan]

i agree with some of those but heres my own list

1. Takedowns are overepowered little and takedowns are way too random you can get takedown 4 times in one round or 0 times. you can layandpray minute or 5 minutes.

 

2. biggest problem with takedowns is this http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=581700 grapplers get a lot more points by doing nothing even striker is better on ground. ground scoring should be modified. if striker got good defensive ground skills he should be able to escape a lot easier than in now. And of course takedowns are too easy with low takedown skills..

 

3. clinch is quite dead and reason is that we got skill cap 76-80% who wants to waste 300 points to elbown and knees? nobody. another problem with cap is that if you got fighter with like respectable knees,elbowns,takedows,gnp or submission those points are out of really important skills.

 

 

http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=600128

i dont really understand how this is even possible.. last three rounds. are you kidding me. thats good fight engine:D

 

what if takedowns would be easy to get and escaping would be even easier ?

 

striker vs grappler fights are too lucky depenting, you wont never know whats gonna happen.. if you fighter striker vs striker there is little luck but hiddens,skills and sliders matter a lot more.

[JLP]

http://www.mmatycoon...php?FTID=599989 -- got taken down 3 times in 1st -- although didnt make it to score cards commentary stated Overeem dominated the round even with getting taken down 3 times -- had a few other fights will look up where taken down couple times and still win rounds

That's why I said "most of the time". I didn't give a specific percentage, but I would say it's over 75%-80% so pointing out one example where it doesn't go the way my general perception is doesn't really mean much to me.

Probably the worst aspect of this community when you talk about the engine is that people will post a fight or two that goes against an overwhelming trend and act as if it makes whatever you are saying irrelevant. When the game simulates as many fights as this one does there is no absolutes, anything can and will happen.