Holy crap takedowns are hard!

[duphus]

I quit using the prediction sliders and honestly don't see a difference.

 

Escapes worked before, people just didn't use them right. Go back and look, you will see a few manager used them with pretty good success, but most others couldn't get them to work. That was slider choice, not that escapes didn't work at the time. Now add in the instant escape and a few telling guys how to make them work and you have what we have today.

 

CTD, this is about useless now, IMO. I do see a few still get them, but my guys with sens TD's and elite wrestling almost never get one ever.

 

The ground game is still about 50% slow, meaning the amount of moves vs stand up for the same amount of time is way way lower. GnP, needs to land more but probably score less and/or do less damage if moves are increased and success is increased.

[JLP]

I had to go back to November to find the last time a striker of mine lost to a grappler, and that was due to eating a full energy headkick and having him follow me to the ground. Before that it was late July when my striker with subs lost to a grappler. The only time I use predict is when I have the striker and want to avoid the TD and it generally gets me an easy win.

CTD is worthless now, I agree on that.

[clydebankblitz]

Fuuuuuuuuuuuuck ever being in charge of this game. 6 months ago people were complaining about the "stupid escapes" section...now they should be gotten rid of? Seems like every single time people ask for anything to be fixed in the game, whatever wanted fixed is what's being complained about 2 months later.

 

The reason for this? If you have a grappler who can't get takedowns and land submissions, you are unhappy with the ground and grappling system.

 

If you have a striker who can't stay on the feet and is always taken down, you are unhappy with the takedowns system.

 

As I said, fuuuuuuuuuck being the one to spend your time working on that stuff cause it seems like a thankless job.

[JLP]

Fuuuuuuuuuuuuck ever being in charge of this game. 6 months ago people were complaining about the "stupid escapes" section...now they should be gotten rid of? Seems like every single time people ask for anything to be fixed in the game, whatever wanted fixed is what's being complained about 2 months later.

 

The reason for this? If you have a grappler who can't get takedowns and land submissions, you are unhappy with the ground and grappling system.

 

If you have a striker who can't stay on the feet and is always taken down, you are unhappy with the takedowns system.

 

As I said, fuuuuuuuuuck being the one to spend your time working on that stuff cause it seems like a thankless job.

Mike doesnt really play the game so how would he know when there is something that isnt working right? He often makes changes based on discussions the community has about gameplay.

 

If we all had your attitude about it Jacky would still be #1 using 100% counter. Stop hyperventilating and give an actual opinion on the what everyone else is talking about. You actually arent helping mike by jumping in and pretending to protect him from a non-existent attack.

[duphus]

Fuuuuuuuuuuuuck ever being in charge of this game. 6 months ago people were complaining about the "stupid escapes" section...now they should be gotten rid of? Seems like every single time people ask for anything to be fixed in the game, whatever wanted fixed is what's being complained about 2 months later.

 

The reason for this? If you have a grappler who can't get takedowns and land submissions, you are unhappy with the ground and grappling system.

 

If you have a striker who can't stay on the feet and is always taken down, you are unhappy with the takedowns system.

 

As I said, fuuuuuuuuuck being the one to spend your time working on that stuff cause it seems like a thankless job.

 

Not. people are just saying that the stand up vs ground game is about as imbalanced as it has ever been for a while. I don't care if it's changed or not, just voicing my opinion. Many people hated the CTD era but in all reality it was the most balanced the game ever was as far as stand up vs ground. Mike fixed it, just went too far on the CTD. Because it wasn't realistic? Yes landing a CTD with useless TD's happened all the time. Me and JLP actually tested it in a fight, when we noticed how easy it was to get them. So many of us game planned around this and adjusted skills accordingly.

 

People are talking just slight tweaks, not totally redoing stuff just some adjusting on landing or success rates and at this point it's just discussion that's all.

[gwad12345]

Fuuuuuuuuuuuuck ever being in charge of this game. 6 months ago people were complaining about the "stupid escapes" section...now they should be gotten rid of? Seems like every single time people ask for anything to be fixed in the game, whatever wanted fixed is what's being complained about 2 months later.

 

The reason for this? If you have a grappler who can't get takedowns and land submissions, you are unhappy with the ground and grappling system.

 

If you have a striker who can't stay on the feet and is always taken down, you are unhappy with the takedowns system.

 

As I said, fuuuuuuuuuck being the one to spend your time working on that stuff cause it seems like a thankless job.

 

I understand what Mike was thinking when he added insta-escapes. He was nerfing ref standups and thought he should balance that by adding insta-escapes which would also add some realism. The problem is that the game was already unbalanced towards strikers. Just as they have in every update since the ctd era ended, strikers fared better and the game was made that much more unbalanced.

 

I want the same thing I wanted 6 months ago. More balance between strikers and grapplers.

[clydebankblitz]

Mike doesnt really play the game so how would he know when there is something that isnt working right? He often makes changes based on discussions the community has about gameplay.

 

If we all had your attitude about it Jacky would still be #1 using 100% counter. Stop hyperventilating and give an actual opinion on the what everyone else is talking about. You actually arent helping mike by jumping in and pretending to protect him from a non-existent attack.

 

Yeah he doesn't really play it but he gets told things like "Man, escapes mean nothing, do something about that". He does something about it. Then he gets "Man, escapes are too good, do something about that". If right now he made takedowns easier and escapes/stand ups more rare, I absolutely guarantee that in 6 months people are bitching that grappling is too good in the game.

 

Sure, some things can be tweaked and that's why they are always tweaked. But go find a post basically from anyone that said "Right, leave it, everything is perfect, we have the balance down". I can pull up posts that say striking is too easy, and striking is too hard. Takedowns are too easy, and takedowns are too hard. People make their decisions based on if their fighters are winning or losing.

 

Everything he does, he got told by the guys on the site to do. Mike doesn't just say "Hey let's make grappling hard cause lol fuck them". He gets advised that this aspect should get a bit of work done. He does that, and then what? That was the worst decision of all time and ruined the entire game. He fixes it, damn man why did you ruin the game AGAIN?

[duphus]

 

I understand what Mike was thinking when he added insta-escapes. He was nerfing ref standups and thought he should balance that by adding insta-escapes which would also add some realism. The problem is that the game was already unbalanced towards strikers. Just as they have in every update since the ctd era ended, strikers fared better and the game was made that much more unbalanced.

 

I want the same thing I wanted 6 months ago. More balance between strikers and grapplers.

 

Yep, CTD era really is the only era where you actually had the top 10 in fighters an actual mix of stand up and ground fighters and most of the other era's was all stand up guys or least more like 85% or more for stand up.

[gwad12345]

 

Yeah he doesn't really play it but he gets told things like "Man, escapes mean nothing, do something about that". He does something about it. Then he gets "Man, escapes are too good, do something about that". If right now he made takedowns easier and escapes/stand ups more rare, I absolutely guarantee that in 6 months people are bitching that grappling is too good in the game.

 

Sure, some things can be tweaked and that's why they are always tweaked. But go find a post basically from anyone that said "Right, leave it, everything is perfect, we have the balance down". I can pull up posts that say striking is too easy, and striking is too hard. Takedowns are too easy, and takedowns are too hard. People make their decisions based on if their fighters are winning or losing.

 

First of all, thats not why he changed escapes.

 

Second that's an extremely cynical view to take and not at all accurate for me and many others I am sure. If you are like me you have probably gotten rid of all the grapplers on your roster. That's not the way I want it to be though. I want this to be MMATycoon not kickboxingtycoon.

[clydebankblitz]

 

Not. people are just saying that the stand up vs ground game is about as imbalanced as it has ever been for a while. I don't care if it's changed or not, just voicing my opinion. Many people hated the CTD era but in all reality it was the most balanced the game ever was as far as stand up vs ground. Mike fixed it, just went too far on the CTD. Because it wasn't realistic? Yes landing a CTD with useless TD's happened all the time. Me and JLP actually tested it in a fight, when we noticed how easy it was to get them. So many of us game planned around this and adjusted skills accordingly.

 

People are talking just slight tweaks, not totally redoing stuff just some adjusting on landing or success rates and at this point it's just discussion that's all.

 

That's all I'm saying. Many people hated it...yet it was the most balanced the game ever was. That's because people are just going to hate whatever the current system is. Did people agree back then that that era was the most balanced, or was it JUST complaining?

 

It's like when Call of Duty listened to the people complaining on the internet about Ghost/UAV/Camping. They tried to listen to the people, and next thing you know they've completely got rid of any sort of tactical play and are forcing players to run and gun at all times.

 

If people at times were actually happy with certain aspects, like the CTD era as you say, things will be changed less. But I guarantee you threads were posted back then about loads of things which make loads of other things "pointless to do".

[markyosullivan]

This guy is doing pretty well considering all the flaws in the ground game: http://mmatycoon.com/fighterprofilepublic.php?FID=160509

 

My lightweight fighter has done pretty well recently although I'm not sure how skilled his opponents were with their escapes: http://mmatycoon.com/fighterprofilemanager.php?FID=214545

 

I haven't researched all my ground guys to see who's had trouble with guys who used escapes successfully but I'll have a look over in the next couple of days. Still I think it's impressive how good Ron Lemieux has done.

[clydebankblitz]

 

First of all, thats not why he changed escapes.

 

Second that's an extremely cynical view to take and not at all accurate for me and many others I am sure. If you are like me you have probably gotten rid of all the grapplers on your roster. That's not the way I want it to be though. I want this to be MMATycoon not kickboxingtycoon.

 

If it's not accurate for you, that's probably why I'm not saying "Fuck you GWad you know nothing" .

 

But I've yet to see someone say a single positive thing about the game and what is currently the set up. When things are changed, they complain about the changes.

 

I'm not even saying what is right, wrong, what should be changed and what shouldn't. I'm just kind of learning that side of the game which is why I'm not chiming in. It's just a weekly basis now that guys complain about things that even cancel out each other's complaints. Maybe grappling is way too hard in the game, but I'll wait until that's changed and then post in the "holy crap takedowns are easy" thread with this stuff and people will down rep me for not joining in the outrage.

[JLP]

 

Yeah he doesn't really play it but he gets told things like "Man, escapes mean nothing, do something about that". He does something about it. Then he gets "Man, escapes are too good, do something about that". If right now he made takedowns easier and escapes/stand ups more rare, I absolutely guarantee that in 6 months people are bitching that grappling is too good in the game.

 

Sure, some things can be tweaked and that's why they are always tweaked. But go find a post basically from anyone that said "Right, leave it, everything is perfect, we have the balance down". I can pull up posts that say striking is too easy, and striking is too hard. Takedowns are too easy, and takedowns are too hard. People make their decisions based on if their fighters are winning or losing.

 

Everything he does, he got told by the guys on the site to do. Mike doesn't just say "Hey let's make grappling hard cause lol fuck them". He gets advised that this aspect should get a bit of work done. He does that, and then what? That was the worst decision of all time and ruined the entire game. He fixes it, damn man why did you ruin the game AGAIN?

A game like this has to constantly evolve or it will die. It will never be a perfect simulation of MMA, but if we all give our opinions and mike takes a look at what people have to say and use that as a basis for the next engine tweak then we are all the better for it.

 

If it were up to me, I would make very small tweaks to make escapes a little less effective, keep ref standups about where they are, make TD's slightly more effective and make entering/exiting the clinch a little easier. The only thing I would do away with altogether is the predict settings. The thing is Mike has great ideas, but when he does I think he often goes a little heavy with any changes he makes.

[duphus]

One problem you have with the ground game and reason you get so varied opinions on it is this:

 

low levels vs high levels of skilled fighters are completely different fights, at the low level ground game is strong and at the high end it's much weaker and harder to do anything. Thus guys with new ground fighters, feel like things are fine while strikers will complain they are at a disadvantage and then vice versa on managers with top level fighters.

 

Like I said I couldn't care less if mike changes stuff or not, I'm just gonna make the fighters that work the best and call it a day. In the end mike has a tough job as you're never going to make everyone happy.

 

You really don't get much varied opinions on strictly stand up stuff (maybe scoring a little), cause it works pretty much the same at low levels vs high levels thus most on the same page.

[clydebankblitz]

A game like this has to constantly evolve or it will die. It will never be a perfect simulation of MMA, but if we all give our opinions and mike takes a look at what people have to say and use that as a basis for the next engine tweak then we are all the better for it.

 

If it were up to me, I would make very small tweaks to make escapes a little less effective, keep ref standups about where they are, make TD's a slightly more effective and make entering/exiting the clinch a little easier. The only thing I would do away with altogether is the predict settings. The thing is Mike has great ideas, but when he does I think he often goes a little heavy with any changes he makes.

 

Absolutely. It just seems less like people suggest little things at times and more people are complaining about everything. To be fair, I don't really mean you lads. You's all know the game inside out. But we've constantly got threads of "How fucking stupid is this decision, let's change everything" and everyone's thinking "Eh....it's not stupid?". I guess I just felt like that time when you're in a busy nightclub and you are walking through people before your gap closes up and you just want to turn into a Magicarp with Splash disabled and use flail.

[JLP]

 

Absolutely. It just seems less like people suggest little things at times and more people are complaining about everything. To be fair, I don't really mean you lads. You's all know the game inside out. But we've constantly got threads of "How fucking stupid is this decision, let's change everything" and everyone's thinking "Eh....it's not stupid?". I guess I just felt like that time when you're in a busy nightclub and you are walking through people before your gap closes up and you just want to turn into a Magicarp with Splash disabled and use flail.

What the fuck are you talking about? I think we need dino in here to translate.

[clydebankblitz]

What the fuck are you talking about? I think we need dino in here to translate.

 

You never had a Magikarp with it's Splash disabled? You lucky son of a bitch.

[JLP]

 

Yep, CTD era really is the only era where you actually had the top 10 in fighters an actual mix of stand up and ground fighters and most of the other era's was all stand up guys or least more like 85% or more for stand up.

CTD era was my favorite. I felt like there were so many paths to victory in any given fight and it really encouraged diverse fighter builds. I thought it did a great deal to more simulate RL mma then anything else we've ever had. But it was probably a little too strong, as evidenced by our Smith vs Taphorn fight.

[PBR]

This guy is doing pretty well considering all the flaws in the ground game: http://mmatycoon.com/fighterprofilepublic.php?FID=160509

 

if you notice though he mainly only lands counter takedowns -- rarely lands a aggressive takedown

[SteelPenn]

There has been an issue with takedowns in this game for a long time now.

 

I have had a sensational wrestler with elite takedowns vs a competent wrestler and get all takedowns stuffed.

 

It was explained to me that I spammed takedown so was predictable there for the other guy knew it was coming so stopped it.

 

To predictable? Sensational wrestler with elite takedowns in my opinion should get the takedown over and over and fucking over again if he wants as the other guys is only competent in wrestling.

 

I then had members tell me they could defend takedowns from Johnny Hendricks if they knew he was doing takedowns only. Predictability would allow them to stuff Johnny. I think this is bullshit.

[clydebankblitz]

^JLP, prime example of what I was referring to.

[gwad12345]

Pretty sure Mike made a pisstake video making fun of that sort of sentiment before.

 

I think Mike and the community are intelligent enough to be able to tell the difference between incoherent ramblings and legitimate problems.

[762x39]

I dont think a big change is needed either. I would be happy with the way takedowns are, if escapes were a little harder and maybe ref standups just a bit less. I do think escapes are over powered right now and need cut back some. If that is done, the ground guys will have longer on the ground and the takedowns should be fine.

 

As for the predict sliders, I always set them. But I really dont care either way, leave them or do away with them makes no difference to me. But I will agree if you are set to watch takedowns they are a lot harder to land. That could use adjusting if the sliders are left in place.

[clydebankblitz]

Pretty sure Mike made a pisstake video making fun of that sort of sentiment before.

 

I think Mike and the community are intelligent enough to be able to tell the difference between incoherent ramblings and legitimate problems.

 

The guys said the CTD era was the best but everyone complained about it at the time. It was likely because of guys complaining pointlessly that it got changed.

 

But you're right I guess. As I said its less so most of the guys in this thread that are the ones complaining since you guys know the game inside and out. But we had "I should be able to take someone down every single time" up there which I think only GSP is even close to in MMA history.

[Madness]

One problem you have with the ground game and reason you get so varied opinions on it is this:

 

low levels vs high levels of skilled fighters are completely different fights, at the low level ground game is strong and at the high end it's much weaker and harder to do anything. Thus guys with new ground fighters, feel like things are fine while strikers will complain they are at a disadvantage and then vice versa on managers with top level fighters.

 

Like I said I couldn't care less if mike changes stuff or not, I'm just gonna make the fighters that work the best and call it a day. In the end mike has a tough job as you're never going to make everyone happy.

 

You really don't get much varied opinions on strictly stand up stuff (maybe scoring a little), cause it works pretty much the same at low levels vs high levels thus most on the same page.

That is why I posted a year ago that we should simply adjust skill disparities. Right now the gap between feeble and abysmal are night and day while sensational to elite is hardly noticeable. Increase the gap a bit up top and lower it a bit down low, and this game will be much easier to balance.