BillyRose Posted March 30, 2017 Report Share Posted March 30, 2017 I have had maybe one fighter I consider Submission specialist. Most of my ground fighters are really good Wrestlers, with only marginally good BJJ and related skills. Even so, they tend to get more Sub finishes than TKOs from GnP. I'm not really even trying for it either. If I have an advantage, I'll put my Submissions slider at 5-10% just to mix it up and keep the other guy honest. And it winds up winning me matches. So my question is how effective is BJJ without the Wrestling? Wrestling seems to provide all the positioning, the damage, and the wear & tear necessary to soften someone up for a Kimura or something. If I have something like Sensational Wrestling with a Blue Belt, should I really have to worry about going to the ground against someone with Useless Wrestling but a Black Belt? I've had situations like that but was afraid to try it out, so I wound up trying to win in the Clinch instead. I know physical stats play a role but big picture - which is more important on the ground - BJJ and Wrestling? Can one function without the other, all else equal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rambo Posted March 31, 2017 Report Share Posted March 31, 2017 I have had maybe one fighter I consider Submission specialist. Most of my ground fighters are really good Wrestlers, with only marginally good BJJ and related skills. Even so, they tend to get more Sub finishes than TKOs from GnP. I'm not really even trying for it either. If I have an advantage, I'll put my Submissions slider at 5-10% just to mix it up and keep the other guy honest. And it winds up winning me matches. So my question is how effective is BJJ without the Wrestling? Wrestling seems to provide all the positioning, the damage, and the wear & tear necessary to soften someone up for a Kimura or something. If I have something like Sensational Wrestling with a Blue Belt, should I really have to worry about going to the ground against someone with Useless Wrestling but a Black Belt? I've had situations like that but was afraid to try it out, so I wound up trying to win in the Clinch instead. I know physical stats play a role but big picture - which is more important on the ground - BJJ and Wrestling? Can one function without the other, all else equal? Equally important. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillyRose Posted March 31, 2017 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2017 Equally important. Mhmm.. So in my example, how would you gameplan it? A Great Wrestler vs Blackbelt with Useless wrestling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimCornette Posted March 31, 2017 Report Share Posted March 31, 2017 I think pajama fighting is useless. 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeF Posted March 31, 2017 Report Share Posted March 31, 2017 Id say BJJ beats wrestling when it comes to submissions efficiency. But you are fighting in ID orgs where most fighters have nothing for the ground game. I have scored a sub with a fighter who had useless submissions in such fight so you can be fine with either wrestling or bjj. But generally BJJ is slightly better for scoring subs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mannetosen Posted March 31, 2017 Report Share Posted March 31, 2017 The easiest place to sub from is bottom guard which is all bjj. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeF Posted March 31, 2017 Report Share Posted March 31, 2017 The easiest place to sub from is bottom guard which is all bjj. This is very true. I know some people who go 100% advance position on bottom sliders and use bottom guard as stick position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 31, 2017 Report Share Posted March 31, 2017 This is very true. I know some people who go 100% advance position on bottom sliders and use bottom guard as stick position. Any fights you can link me to with this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeF Posted March 31, 2017 Report Share Posted March 31, 2017 Any fights you can link me to with this? http://mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=857106 Check Cabrera's behavior at ground bottom. At full guard he spams subs, at any other position he tries to advance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freakja420 Posted October 15, 2022 Report Share Posted October 15, 2022 On 3/30/2017 at 4:19 PM, BillyRose said: I have had maybe one fighter I consider Submission specialist. Most of my ground fighters are really good Wrestlers, with only marginally good BJJ and related skills. Even so, they tend to get more Sub finishes than TKOs from GnP. I'm not really even trying for it either. If I have an advantage, I'll put my Submissions slider at 5-10% just to mix it up and keep the other guy honest. And it winds up winning me matches. So my question is how effective is BJJ without the Wrestling? Wrestling seems to provide all the positioning, the damage, and the wear & tear necessary to soften someone up for a Kimura or something. If I have something like Sensational Wrestling with a Blue Belt, should I really have to worry about going to the ground against someone with Useless Wrestling but a Black Belt? I've had situations like that but was afraid to try it out, so I wound up trying to win in the Clinch instead. I know physical stats play a role but big picture - which is more important on the ground - BJJ and Wrestling? Can one function without the other, all else equal? Regarding the (14) Sensational Wrestler, Blue Belt vs (1) Useless Wrestler, Black Belt... I'd say, transition into dominant positions and control! While trying to work a little offense too. But still be worried about the Black Belt if you give him any opportunities to go for submissions. Example: If your fighter can get to the mount and control from there, I think he should be fine. But if you stay in the Black Belts guard, or he happens to take your back. I'd definitely be worried. Your worried about the Black belts submissions, so try to take those away from him or make him only try submissions from difficult positions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtieBanks Posted October 15, 2022 Report Share Posted October 15, 2022 On 3/31/2017 at 2:33 AM, Rambo said: Equally important. Wrestling for the top game - BJJ for the bottom is pretty much how the game works hence why CK's answer is correct. Although in the all round aspect - you need wrestling either way it is probably the most important primary in the game. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiderJake Posted October 19, 2022 Report Share Posted October 19, 2022 On 10/15/2022 at 10:03 PM, Freakja420 said: Regarding the (14) Sensational Wrestler, Blue Belt vs (1) Useless Wrestler, Black Belt... I'd say, transition into dominant positions and control! While trying to work a little offense too. But still be worried about the Black Belt if you give him any opportunities to go for submissions. Example: If your fighter can get to the mount and control from there, I think he should be fine. But if you stay in the Black Belts guard, or he happens to take your back. I'd definitely be worried. Your worried about the Black belts submissions, so try to take those away from him or make him only try submissions here from difficult positions. Is it more likely that a belts submissions won't work from a difficult position? Or what does that relate to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freakja420 Posted October 19, 2022 Report Share Posted October 19, 2022 15 hours ago, RiderJake said: Is it more likely that a belts submissions won't work from a difficult position? Or what does that relate to? Exactly. But I'm not saying a fighter can't tap you out from a difficult position. -For example the (14) wrestler, blue belt vs (1) wrestler, black belt. -How it relates depends on what position you are on the ground. Let's say the (14) wrestler gets a takedown and ends up in the guard so the black belt is in his guard bottom. The black belt would be more likely to go for submissions and be more likely to finish. -Now let's say the (14) wrestler gets into side control, so now he has a more dominant position. The black belt may go for submissions but he will be making submissions from a difficult position, and not as likely to finish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rambo Posted October 23, 2022 Report Share Posted October 23, 2022 On 10/19/2022 at 7:32 PM, Freakja420 said: Exactly. But I'm not saying a fighter can't tap you out from a difficult position. -For example the (14) wrestler, blue belt vs (1) wrestler, black belt. -How it relates depends on what position you are on the ground. Let's say the (14) wrestler gets a takedown and ends up in the guard so the black belt is in his guard bottom. The black belt would be more likely to go for submissions and be more likely to finish. -Now let's say the (14) wrestler gets into side control, so now he has a more dominant position. The black belt may go for submissions but he will be making submissions from a difficult position, and not as likely to finish. it's all fun and games until somebody fish hooks the other man's keister. a little oil check therapy can trouble many students of the mat. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lamarclark09 Posted November 14, 2022 Report Share Posted November 14, 2022 The whole emphasis of BJJ is on submission and ground fighting whereas wrestling is based on takedowns and pins. BJJ is based on right techniques whereas wrestlers use their physical strength, power, and speed. Wrestlers are usually more physically stronger and even bigger than Jiu-Jitsu fighters. And while that may sound scary to Jiu-Jitsu recreationists, it's not all that bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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