Primary skill rework. Thoughts?

[edwardsfan]

Primary skills are suppose to be only an insight. An insinuation. 4x elite fighters take that layer of complexity from the game.

 

Sparring should be similar to real life. A grueling experience. Something that wears on you. But something that really prepares you. But not something you do every day.

 

Primary skills should be something that only grow from residual effects of training individual techniques of the craft (secondary skills).

 

Primary skills should be looked at more so just as your capability in that area and how sharp you are at it. If youre a wonderful boxer then that is your capability. But how sharp you are depends on the recency of training.

 

Mike Tyson is an elite boxer. But without sparring for a period of time his capabilities drop from 100% of elite to 80% to 70 to 60 to 50 and etc. etc..... but with sparring his skills could be raised back to 100% of his capabilities.

 

So it creates layers of logic for training and game planning. Opponents would not see your fighters current status. You could appear to be at 100% of exceptional at boxing but beneath the surface really only be at 60%? You would have to make decisions on how to operate your training camps and begin tailoring your strategy from the moment the fights are booked.

 

Currently its very basic. You get to 4x elite and youre done. Its not realistic and from a gaming standpoint kind of boring. There should be more movement in fighters skills. And not just upward movement. Fluctuating. Dynamic.

[Gator001]

Not all elite primaries are equal

 

You can have an elite primary i.e. boxing and be an absolute crap boxer if your secondaries are not very good

 

Just like in real life some people have fake belts

[edwardsfan]

Yep and that makes no sense. That is why i said that primaries should only be raised by secondaries. Sparring shouldnt raise your primary skills. Only keep them sharp. Primaries getting raised should only be residual effects of secondary training.

 

^^^ That is logical. A Black belt with no skills in BJJ isnt.

[Gator001]

Yep and that makes no sense. That is why i said that primaries should only be raised by secondaries. Sparring shouldnt raise your primary skills. Only keep them sharp. Primaries getting raised should only be residual effects of secondary training.

 

^^^ That is logical. A Black belt with no skills in BJJ isnt.

ah ok i misinterpreted what you meant

[Rambo]

You can't have elite boxing and totally shit punches even in this game. It would be pretty damn hard to accomplish that. You'd have to train nothing but striking defense and limited clinchwork cuz clinchwork and boxing sparring give minor boost to punch tech.

 

Now you can have a brown belt and purple belt and useless subs. Which should be impossible. At least woeful-feeble subs should be required for purple belt.

 

Personally I think belt color needs to be permanent. Perhaps primary too, even if primes decline display should always be the highest primary achieved. Decline shouldn't be visible to opponents via primes. TOTT or fight results diff story.

 

Back to belt color for bjj (and idea could translate to other primes), maybe prerequisites required before "level up". I.E. at least exceptional subs/def grap/and trans to get brown belt. Sens for black belt. Elite for red belt...

 

Just example, could put more thought and format into it.

[barney]

Primary skills are suppose to be only an insight. An insinuation. 4x elite fighters take that layer of complexity from the game.

 

Sparring should be similar to real life. A grueling experience. Something that wears on you. But something that really prepares you. But not something you do every day.

 

 

I sparr in BJJ everyday (used to, before quarentine). Fuck, I used to do 1 "highschool training" (as my coach Galvao calls skill training) and 1 or 2 1h30 sparring session each day.

 

Primary skills should be something that only grow from residual effects of training individual techniques of the craft (secondary skills).

 

 

Highly disagree. Being a good competitive athlete and being a good BJJ/Judo/Karate practitioner are two VERY, VERY different things.

I had some judo friends that weren't good at Randori (sparring), but they excelled in discipline, in-mat behaviour, katas and the whole philosophy and concept of judo. He was a bad athlete. But they were top notch judo pratictioners.

Since the game is not "Be a Budist Monk Tycoon" but a competitive, athletic oriented game, I think sparring having lots to do with "how skilled you are" is very much on spot. I'd rather put my guy to sparr a lot and do less tech training than the other way around. At least in BJJ and judo, competition is very specialized. You win by doing only one or two things, but doing it VERY right. Bernardo Faria is GREAT at many things, a true black belt, he knows a lot of BJJ and understands the whole game, yadda yadda yadda, but if you breakdown his titles, he was a 5 time world champ doing half guard from bottom and over-under from the top. Aaaand thats it. he even says so on his instructional videos. He sparred a lot, he got so good at doing the same thing over and over and how to set it, even when people knew what he would do and played the right defense. You don't get that just training skill. You only get that sparring and competing. A lot.

 

So it creates layers of logic for training and game planning. Opponents would not see your fighters current status. You could appear to be at 100% of exceptional at boxing but beneath the surface really only be at 60%? You would have to make decisions on how to operate your training camps and begin tailoring your strategy from the moment the fights are booked.

 

Currently its very basic. You get to 4x elite and youre done. Its not realistic and from a gaming standpoint kind of boring. There should be more movement in fighters skills. And not just upward movement. Fluctuating. Dynamic.

Most player cant grasp the logic for training and planning yet and this game is more than 10 years old. People still argue if its better to start 1/10 str+cardio or 1/90 or 1/110 or whatever. People still have a lot of myths like the "Fake KO" stuff. Top people that have been around for forever. The great majority of the simple jacks don't grasp the full complexity of the slide aspect of the game as it is, making it even more layered won't help.

 

You can't have elite boxing and totally shit punches even in this game. It would be pretty damn hard to accomplish that. You'd have to train nothing but striking defense and limited clinchwork cuz clinchwork and boxing sparring give minor boost to punch tech.

 

Now you can have a brown belt and purple belt and useless subs. Which should be impossible. At least woeful-feeble subs should be required for purple belt.

 

Personally I think belt color needs to be permanent. Perhaps primary too, even if primes decline display should always be the highest primary achieved. Decline shouldn't be visible to opponents via primes. TOTT or fight results diff story.

 

Back to belt color for bjj (and idea could translate to other primes), maybe prerequisites required before "level up". I.E. at least exceptional subs/def grap/and trans to get brown belt. Sens for black belt. Elite for red belt...

 

Just example, could put more thought and format into it.

Maybe taking of skills depop and making physical depops 3-4 times faster after a trigger age? Like what happened to Roy Jones Jr losing speed+reflexes? You would still be a great spar partner (as old experienced farts really are), you would retain your grades... And it would make sense with what you said on another thread about capping physicals for different builds. Thats something that could add more layers without necessarily making the game more complex.

[edwardsfan]

I sparr in BJJ everyday (used to, before quarentine). Fuck, I used to do 1 "highschool training" (as my coach Galvao calls skill training) and 1 or 2 1h30 sparring session each day.

 

 

Highly disagree. Being a good competitive athlete and being a good BJJ/Judo/Karate practitioner are two VERY, VERY different things.

I had some judo friends that weren't good at Randori (sparring), but they excelled in discipline, in-mat behaviour, katas and the whole philosophy and concept of judo. He was a bad athlete. But they were top notch judo pratictioners.

Since the game is not "Be a Budist Monk Tycoon" but a competitive, athletic oriented game, I think sparring having lots to do with "how skilled you are" is very much on spot. I'd rather put my guy to sparr a lot and do less tech training than the other way around. At least in BJJ and judo, competition is very specialized. You win by doing only one or two things, but doing it VERY right. Bernardo Faria is GREAT at many things, a true black belt, he knows a lot of BJJ and understands the whole game, yadda yadda yadda, but if you breakdown his titles, he was a 5 time world champ doing half guard from bottom and over-under from the top. Aaaand thats it. he even says so on his instructional videos. He sparred a lot, he got so good at doing the same thing over and over and how to set it, even when people knew what he would do and played the right defense. You don't get that just training skill. You only get that sparring and competing. A lot.

 

Most player cant grasp the logic for training and planning yet and this game is more than 10 years old. People still argue if its better to start 1/10 str+cardio or 1/90 or 1/110 or whatever. People still have a lot of myths like the "Fake KO" stuff. Top people that have been around for forever. The great majority of the simple jacks don't grasp the full complexity of the slide aspect of the game as it is, making it even more layered won't help.

 

Maybe taking of skills depop and making physical depops 3-4 times faster after a trigger age? Like what happened to Roy Jones Jr losing speed+reflexes? You would still be a great spar partner (as old experienced farts really are), you would retain your grades... And it would make sense with what you said on another thread about capping physicals for different builds. Thats something that could add more layers without necessarily making the game more complex.

I dont think game complexity is as big of a deterrent to newer players as seeing 4x elite fighters that take real life years to develop.

 

That is why Im looking at it from a game perspective and saying sparring should not raise your primary skills. Only keep them sharp.

 

The goal should be to get away from the quad elite standard. Introduce some variability into the look of fighters and even another layer beneath the surface when it comes to a fighters actual current skill.

 

By lowering a fighters primary skill level and reducing the speed at which it can be raised, you inevitably raise the importance of fighter build at creation. Which i think is very important to the game and accurate in a lot of ways to real life. Fighters typically come into the sport with a core set of skills and they typically maintain that base. Even as they expand their experience in other areas.

[jjsquirrel]

Everything barney said above +1 (and yes Faria got some excellent points too).

 

About the quad-elite problem. One way to get rid of that without too heavy changes to the game mechanics would be introducing separate caps for the primaries set on creation. That way you can only fully max out 1 or 2 of them based on your initial build. Not sure if I like that myself or not yet, but should help some to make skillsets more different.

[GreekFighter]

Just add a predeterminded skill cap and make to actually be able to modify a part of the skill potential + age skill drop on character creation...

Right now is RNG tycoon.

Anyway as it seems this game is forgotten the past 5 years so good lack with that idea

[10thPlanetKT]

Everything barney said above +1 (and yes Faria got some excellent points too).

 

About the quad-elite problem. One way to get rid of that without too heavy changes to the game mechanics would be introducing separate caps for the primaries set on creation. That way you can only fully max out 1 or 2 of them based on your initial build. Not sure if I like that myself or not yet, but should help some to make skillsets more different.

 

Uhh here we go with the training caps again lol. Training caps will only work if they disable the ability to make a cookie cutter build and variability in wins and more strategy. I don't see how it adds either in my opinion but you can try to prove me wrong I'm willing to listen. I do believe that your sparring during a "training camp" for a fight should have a somewhat of an effect though to increase competitivity.

[jjsquirrel]

The only point I was making really is that if the caps could be individual per fighter it would give greater primary skill diversity at the top level where everything is maxed out.

 

I don't think that is the best possible fix, but it is one that could be made without redesigning the whole game.

[barney]

Karter did a great suggestion on another thread about capping Physicals instead. If you max cardio, your strength is capped and vice versa, things like that. This would give more build diversity and strategy without adding more layers and even more learning curve.

Thats not gonna fix the private gym and sack-til-god-learning-speed Pay to win situation (neither any of the training caps suggested) tho

[Rambo]

84-86 days IRL = 1 in game year

 

That means each training session equates to about 2 days time.

 

The game doesn't let you spar back-to-back sessions without substantial diminishing energy loss, so you can argue that there's already a system in place to prevent sparring abuse.

 

No need to rework anything except maybe require prerequisites to obtain elite level primaries. Need at least X amount of subs, trans, def grappling to reach X belt.

 

But once receive a belt, should never lose it, even if bjj skill degrades opponents shouldn't be able to see that.

 

You want to rework primaries? I'll bump the optional primary thread. Flavor text ftw.