Rambo Posted January 31, 2022 Report Share Posted January 31, 2022 Callum, with all due respect... You don't know this engine very well. ground game is weak af. not an opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clydebankblitz Posted January 31, 2022 Report Share Posted January 31, 2022 37 minutes ago, Rambo said: Callum, with all due respect... You don't know this engine very well. ground game is weak af. not an opinion. That was actually surprisingly respectful lmao. To be fair I think me and kstacks have talked before about comparing it to real life, but reading back he wasnt. Yeah I was only responding to what I thought was "How many times do purple and blue belts survive on the ground vs red and black in real life?". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rambo Posted January 31, 2022 Report Share Posted January 31, 2022 11 minutes ago, clydebankblitz said: That was actually surprisingly respectful lmao. To be fair I think me and kstacks have talked before about comparing it to real life, but reading back he wasnt. Yeah I was only responding to what I thought was "How many times do purple and blue belts survive on the ground vs red and black in real life?". yeah, i'm ignoring the real life comparisons and just focusing on the tycoon mechanics. in ID and Island fighting, ground game is fine. at a certain level of physicals, defensive grappling, and cheesy ass slider setting, you receive max defensive boost, score points for control even from bottom, expend little to no energy regardless of top fighter activity (unless they landing GNP), and holy ref stand ups! feel like most things related to ground offense could use a 1-2% boost in success rate to start. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bynum Posted February 1, 2022 Report Share Posted February 1, 2022 1 hour ago, Rambo said: yeah, i'm ignoring the real life comparisons and just focusing on the tycoon mechanics. in ID and Island fighting, ground game is fine. at a certain level of physicals, defensive grappling, and cheesy ass slider setting, you receive max defensive boost, score points for control even from bottom, expend little to no energy regardless of top fighter activity (unless they landing GNP), and holy ref stand ups! feel like most things related to ground offense could use a 1-2% boost in success rate to start. I only have experience in ID where like you say it's pretty much okay except maybe too many referee standups. And if someone sub spams, they don't deserve any help. A lot of people seem to think not to even bother with GnP, but if you train up GnP too and don't rely purely on subs you do a lot better in relative endurance, though sub spamming can work and shouldn't be able to. Too many sub attempts in a row should mean it becomes predictable and not only has a much lower chance to work but also increases greatly the guy who defends successfully against the subs geting top position if on the bottom or improves if already on top- but only if it's spammed so that it's too predictable. I've read in these threads things that I think I get what happens at higher levels, too, when everyone has very high D-Grap. Mike posted somewhere I read sometime back that the key is the ratio of the offense to the defense, which when the numbers get high on both sides you don't get a big enough difference; so because of course more subs have to fail than succeed, it may be something like sub success chance is 5% * sub ability of the guy on offense/d-grap of guy on defense (with BJJ, physicals. and maybe a little bit of Wrestling in the mix). At high levels those are too close to even so you can never get more than 7-8% even with a red belt and elite Sub offense or something, because I know Mike said it's about ratios, so you'll never get more than, say, 125% or so on offense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clydebankblitz Posted February 1, 2022 Report Share Posted February 1, 2022 10 hours ago, Rambo said: yeah, i'm ignoring the real life comparisons and just focusing on the tycoon mechanics. in ID and Island fighting, ground game is fine. at a certain level of physicals, defensive grappling, and cheesy ass slider setting, you receive max defensive boost, score points for control even from bottom, expend little to no energy regardless of top fighter activity (unless they landing GNP), and holy ref stand ups! feel like most things related to ground offense could use a 1-2% boost in success rate to start. Yeah and while it might be realistic that very few fights end by submission, it's not very fun in the context of the game. We don't get to have Wonderboys, Machidas, Wanderleis, Maias etc. who can just make something unorthadox work. There are only a very small amount of fighting styles in the game, so as you say, bolstering up one of those fighting styles wouldn't be too bad. Scoring points from bottom control is funny haha. GnP is also very rarely because unless you have points in GnP, it's pointless, but it means pretty much no one can even throw a single ground and pound punch which if comparing it to real life at all, isn't something that requires a mass of technique. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bynum Posted February 1, 2022 Report Share Posted February 1, 2022 2 hours ago, clydebankblitz said: Scoring points from bottom control is funny haha. GnP is also very rarely because unless you have points in GnP, it's pointless, but it means pretty much no one can even throw a single ground and pound punch which if comparing it to real life at all, isn't something that requires a mass of technique. Except that if you have a ground fighter you should have points in GnP. Even if your goal is generally to win by sub, while sub spamming can work (which it shouldn't) in general you'll get behind in endurance with a ground fighter who can't (and thus doesn't) use GnP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rambo Posted February 1, 2022 Report Share Posted February 1, 2022 3 hours ago, clydebankblitz said: Yeah and while it might be realistic that very few fights end by submission, it's not very fun in the context of the game. We don't get to have Wonderboys, Machidas, Wanderleis, Maias etc. who can just make something unorthadox work. There are only a very small amount of fighting styles in the game, so as you say, bolstering up one of those fighting styles wouldn't be too bad. Scoring points from bottom control is funny haha. GnP is also very rarely because unless you have points in GnP, it's pointless, but it means pretty much no one can even throw a single ground and pound punch which if comparing it to real life at all, isn't something that requires a mass of technique. I'm saying that the game typically does a poor job reflecting irl mma on the ground, outside of early stages of ID. Gordon Ryan constantly attacks for subs, no? all in all, subs are pretty shit and ground game is an uphill battle. def requires more luck to be successful there than stand up sliders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clydebankblitz Posted February 1, 2022 Report Share Posted February 1, 2022 22 minutes ago, Rambo said: I'm saying that the game typically does a poor job reflecting irl mma on the ground, outside of early stages of ID. Gordon Ryan constantly attacks for subs, no? all in all, subs are pretty shit and ground game is an uphill battle. def requires more luck to be successful there than stand up sliders. You don't want it to reflect real life anyways. Submissions are pretty rare at the top levels of MMA. With so few different fighting styles in the game, you want BJJ to have just as much chance of being successful at any level as striking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rambo Posted February 1, 2022 Report Share Posted February 1, 2022 5 hours ago, clydebankblitz said: You don't want it to reflect real life anyways. Submissions are pretty rare at the top levels of MMA. With so few different fighting styles in the game, you want BJJ to have just as much chance of being successful at any level as striking. I would absolutely want it to reflect real life. One thing you're completely missing is that there is a cookie cutter slider setting that damn near nukes ground offense. It's OP. I also don't think subs are this rare. On average UFC event probably has 2-3 submissions per card. Charles Oliviera i.e. has won like 15 fights via sub in UFC. and lost a few via sub. Maia has 11 subs. Jim Miller has 10. Diaz has 8 subs. List of UFC records - Wikipedia Now we could argue semantics and talk about how these fighters losing via sub are blue and purple belts that don't have elite def grappling, but tycoon fighters also don't have/nor need sub offense and never trained bjj, yet have purple belt or brown belt. There's plenty unrealistic about how secondaries work in video games compared to irl mma. and we could argue that most people in tycoon making strikers and misrepresent mma math... but there's a reason the meta has shifted so strongly in that direction. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clydebankblitz Posted February 1, 2022 Report Share Posted February 1, 2022 44 minutes ago, Rambo said: I also don't think subs are this rare. On average UFC event probably has 2-3 submissions per card. Charles Oliviera i.e. has won like 15 fights via sub in UFC. and lost a few via sub. Maia has 11 subs. Jim Miller has 10. Diaz has 8 subs. I mean sure but this is literally a list of the highest rate of submission guys in MMA history haha. It's like saying "Von Flue is pretty common, OSP has like 3 of them". But yeah the rate of subs in UFC is still higher than MMATyc at high level, but I reckon just from a games dev POV that it'd be hard to implement even those numbers and make it fun. You'd want BJJ to be as effective as striking I reckon. Just because you don't have diversity in striking or grappling styles, you gotta balance it somehow. But as it stands, it's a striking game at the top. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rambo Posted February 3, 2022 Report Share Posted February 3, 2022 On 2/1/2022 at 3:39 PM, clydebankblitz said: I mean sure but this is literally a list of the highest rate of submission guys in MMA history haha. It's like saying "Von Flue is pretty common, OSP has like 3 of them". But yeah the rate of subs in UFC is still higher than MMATyc at high level, but I reckon just from a games dev POV that it'd be hard to implement even those numbers and make it fun. You'd want BJJ to be as effective as striking I reckon. Just because you don't have diversity in striking or grappling styles, you gotta balance it somehow. But as it stands, it's a striking game at the top. Little steps. Like increasing submission success rate from back mount, and maybe mount. As of right now you can spam escapes and escape while mounted vs Elite wrestlers with red belts that have elite str and balance. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottxbandz Posted February 5, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2022 On 1/31/2022 at 2:34 PM, Icon73 said: Wouldn't have to spam if Purple belts weren't un subable. shut yo ass up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottxbandz Posted February 5, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2022 respectfully Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterLeader Posted February 6, 2022 Report Share Posted February 6, 2022 https://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=1070983 lol look at round 1 - “Kra Hang dominated” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rambo Posted February 6, 2022 Report Share Posted February 6, 2022 1 hour ago, MasterLeader said: https://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=1070983 lol look at round 1 - “Kra Hang dominated” what was the striking discrepancy between the 2? and if he winging damage, and you accuracy... power scores points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterLeader Posted February 7, 2022 Report Share Posted February 7, 2022 10 hours ago, Rambo said: what was the striking discrepancy between the 2? and if he winging damage, and you accuracy... power scores points. Kra Hang did better on the feet but not material enough to overturn 3 takedowns imo - at beast it was a close round but Hang just about won it. “Dominated” seems rich. 17-7 on the feet with only a couple of strikes seeming to do real damage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rambo Posted February 7, 2022 Report Share Posted February 7, 2022 18 minutes ago, MasterLeader said: Kra Hang did better on the feet but not material enough to overturn 3 takedowns imo - at beast it was a close round but Hang just about won it. “Dominated” seems rich. 17-7 on the feet with only a couple of strikes seeming to do real damage flavor text means shit tbh. jab score just as much as a kick to the nuts. 17 vs 7 enough to steal the round when not mount enough offense on the ground. landed td but didn't do anything at all with them. basically like landing 1 punch. even if the 3 takedowns merit for 2 strikes, still not enough to overcome imo. especially if opponent winging damage. gonna be tough to squeak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterLeader Posted February 7, 2022 Report Share Posted February 7, 2022 4 hours ago, Rambo said: flavor text means shit tbh. jab score just as much as a kick to the nuts. 17 vs 7 enough to steal the round when not mount enough offense on the ground. landed td but didn't do anything at all with them. basically like landing 1 punch. even if the 3 takedowns merit for 2 strikes, still not enough to overcome imo. especially if opponent winging damage. gonna be tough to squeak. A takedown = 2 strikes only? Surely in reality it’s worth minimum 5 strikes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rambo Posted February 7, 2022 Report Share Posted February 7, 2022 9 minutes ago, MasterLeader said: A takedown = 2 strikes only? Surely in reality it’s worth minimum 5 strikes? depends if strickland jabs or ngannou jabs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcalimon Posted February 7, 2022 Report Share Posted February 7, 2022 Nowadays I basically create only grapplers just because they are more fun to me. That being said, in my experience in all these years playing the game: at the low level of the game or on the Island, ground fighting is still effective as soon as you start fighting in middle or high level orgs (where fighters have more points, better phsysicals and so on), it's completely nerfed and sometime it feels like your belt or slider-fu means nothing on the ground even against a vast inferior grappler Just check the top10 fighters in each weight category and see how many of them are grapplers if you want evidence 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gator001 Posted February 7, 2022 Report Share Posted February 7, 2022 ^^^ spot on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterLeader Posted February 7, 2022 Report Share Posted February 7, 2022 25 minutes ago, Arcalimon said: Nowadays I basically create only grapplers just because they are more fun to me. That being said, in my experience in all these years playing the game: at the low level of the game or on the Island, ground fighting is still effective as soon as you start fighting in middle or high level orgs (where fighters have more points, better phsysicals and so on), it's completely nerfed and sometime it feel like you belt or slider-fu means nothing on the ground even against a vast inferior grappler Just check the top10 fighters in each weight category and see how many of them are grapplers if you want evidence Agree with this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterLeader Posted February 7, 2022 Report Share Posted February 7, 2022 2 hours ago, Rambo said: depends if strickland jabs or ngannou jabs I mean even if Ngannou lands two punches, I’d like to think a takedown plus 30 seconds of control time is worth more, but that’s the wonder of the MMAT engine! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marky Posted February 7, 2022 Report Share Posted February 7, 2022 3 hours ago, MasterLeader said: A takedown = 2 strikes only? Surely in reality it’s worth minimum 5 strikes? The escapes score a lot more than takedowns and they are easy to get. Seen it so many times I'm sick of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottxbandz Posted February 7, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2022 3 hours ago, Marky said: The escapes score a lot more than takedowns and they are easy to get. Seen it so many times I'm sick of it. one of many reasons grapplers get out performed at the high levels. it would be nice if there was a nice mixture, but i dont think id enjoy it the other way around if grapplers were the meta.. idk how to fix it but its pretty annoying as a guy who enjoys some control sometimes and not always swingin dick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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