Make Punches less effective in the clinch

[RegularJohn]

Suggestion: Make Punches less effective in the clinch - in parallel, make the Muay Thai primary enable the effectiveness of Elbows and Knees

Suggestions Description: Every clinch exchange in the game looks like Frye vs. Takayama. Fighters are just slugging punches at each other from very close range. It's boring. If Punches are less effective, and Elbows and Knees are relatively more effective, the clinch: 1) will look more realist, 2) will be less boring, 3) will require more variation in sliders settings, and 4) will relate better to the relevant primaries --> if you have an advantage in Boxing + Wrestling (and considering other relevant variables) maybe you should be landing Punches at will but if the other guy has great Muay Thai + Clinchwork then he should be able to land Elbows and Knees, and they should be potentially as effective as Punches.

Pros:

• increased realism
• increased variation to the game
• requires more attention to sliders setting, rewards careful managers

Cons:

• perhaps a minor change compared to others that are necessary?

 

[flamesnoopy]

Yes please, the clinch is so broken. It's probably the most unrealistic part of the engine.

[venom09]

Knees are very effective in the clinch if they are trained up. I've knocked out more fighters with knees than punches in the clinch. People tend not to train elbows as much as you have to prioritize what skills you want to max with the skill point cap. Punches on the other hand tend to be trained every time as they are useful both at range and in the clinch, which is realistic. I don't see the issue.

[flamesnoopy]

I have multiple guys with knees and elbows. Punches land far more commonly, so it's not very advantageous to use knees. And elbows are so much weaker than punches. It's very evident in KT, which I enjoy in the game.

[Daudy]

Knees are like headkicks and combos to a lesser extent. Hard to land but very, very effective. At bigger weights, one knee with good KO power is almost all it takes to wind your opponent. However, you can also really easily gas yourself throwing an excess of them. High risk, high reward.

Elbows I've never entirely been sold on because of the cost to get them unless your opponent has some cuts issues, which punches do just fine against in general. But! There are a few rare guys that are devastating with elbows. I don't think they're weaker than punches to be honest, and they are better at cutting people. It's not that they're bad compared to punches, it's just that they take just as long as any other skill to use and yet they can only be used in one phase of the fight.

I think the reason you don't see as many of the clinch only skillsis actually because of 1) Learning taking forever and 2) Skill point caps. You literally can't take both (or even one if the fighter is slow) without big sacrifices in defensive grappling skills or no kicks - much worse tradeoffs.

I think dumbing down punches in the clinch without changing anything else wouldn't make people take more knees/elbows, because it doesn't address the reasons why you don't see them as often.

[RegularJohn]

17 hours ago, venom09 said:

Knees are very effective in the clinch if they are trained up. I've knocked out more fighters with knees than punches in the clinch. People tend not to train elbows as much as you have to prioritize what skills you want to max with the skill point cap. Punches on the other hand tend to be trained every time as they are useful both at range and in the clinch, which is realistic. I don't see the issue.

1 hour ago, Daudy said:

I think the reason you don't see as many of the clinch only skillsis actually because of 1) Learning taking forever and 2) Skill point caps. You literally can't take both (or even one if the fighter is slow) without big sacrifices in defensive grappling skills or no kicks - much worse tradeoffs.

I think dumbing down punches in the clinch without changing anything else wouldn't make people take more knees/elbows, because it doesn't address the reasons why you don't see them as often.

In my experience, even among fighters that do have Knees and are good with it, their primary clinch weapon is Punches. While Knees are an exquisite, extraordinary afterthought that is used only as an add-on, at considerable cost.

The point about people not training Knees and Elbows due to the skill point cap is one of the reasons why the suggestion was made in the first place. If Punches are the primary weapon from outside and at least as effective as Knees and Elbows in the clinch, then there is no reason to train Knees and Elbows - which leads us to the unified meta blueprint that makes the game more boring than it could be.

[flamesnoopy]

2 hours ago, RegularJohn said:

In my experience, even among fighters that do have Knees and are good with it, their primary clinch weapon is Punches. While Knees are an exquisite, extraordinary afterthought that is used only as an add-on, at considerable cost.

The point about people not training Knees and Elbows due to the skill point cap is one of the reasons why the suggestion was made in the first place. If Punches are the primary weapon from outside and at least as effective as Knees and Elbows in the clinch, then there is no reason to train Knees and Elbows - which leads us to the unified meta blueprint that makes the game more boring than it could be.

Yes this was what I was going after. Even with elite knees you want to use more punches than knees. Elbows currently aren't even worth training, not even for KT. I think anyone who has ever trained Muay Thai can attest to the fact that no elbow game in Muay Thai gets one killed, not just left with a thousand cuts. Every skill that is currently in the game should be made worth training for and currently this is not the case.

[venom09]

My concern would be with the proposed capping on how many skills can hit elite with this proposal the game would turn into rock, paper, scissors where the outcome of fights are dictated based on your matchup more than a fighters skillset. This is the first time I've seen anyone suggest punches should be nerfed, maybe I'm off base but would love to hear from more of the veteran players on this.

[Daudy]

21 hours ago, RegularJohn said:

In my experience, even among fighters that do have Knees and are good with it, their primary clinch weapon is Punches. While Knees are an exquisite, extraordinary afterthought that is used only as an add-on, at considerable cost.

The point about people not training Knees and Elbows due to the skill point cap is one of the reasons why the suggestion was made in the first place. If Punches are the primary weapon from outside and at least as effective as Knees and Elbows in the clinch, then there is no reason to train Knees and Elbows - which leads us to the unified meta blueprint that makes the game more boring than it could be.

They don't spam knees because that's an easy way to gas yourself or there are other factors (like whether you believe height plays a part).

Nerfing punches in the clinch won't really solve the issue. People are still going to prioritise training punches since they can be used more widely. You're not going to see fighters built where they now replace training punches with elbows or knees instead. All you're doing is making the clinch game just worse in general.

The whole discussion about making the clinch more realistic by reducing punches is kind of odd to me anyway. Most MMA fights in real life that go to the clinch primarily revolve around dirty boxing? Elbows and knees are thrown now and then and not something that is spammed. Some fighters pretty much never throw elbows or knees, and they don't have some skill point cap that is preventing them from learning it (or throwing said technique outside of the clinch). Some of that is because the upright posture throwing knees non-stop Muay Thai style would just get you taken down and in a disadvantageous position on the ground (where again, unlike the purist sport in BJJ, the ability to throw punches changes the dynamic).

Your vision for what the clinch game should look like seems to be entirely based on Muay Thai and not what happens in MMA or even other kickboxing rulesets. Clinching isn't even allowed in a lot of kickboxing rulesets!

[jjsquirrel]

I think the whole skill system is a bit fundamentally flawed and that knees/elbows were added as separate skills makes it even more so. But then we have the rest of the game built on top of this system including the fight engine which is the shining star of this whole game. This is a tough one and any change in fight engine balance need to be considered carefully, because what we have right now works despite the flaws.

I see what RegularJohn want to do but I'm not sure this change would result in the intended effect.

[RegularJohn]

2 hours ago, Daudy said:

Your vision for what the clinch game should look like seems to be entirely based on Muay Thai and not what happens in MMA or even other kickboxing rulesets. Clinching isn't even allowed in a lot of kickboxing rulesets!

Probably yes, I love Muay Thai and I love the clinch in Muay Thai. Maybe what I meant was "Make Knees and Elbows more effective in the clinch", i.e. not mess around with Punches but change Knees and Elbows. I still believe the clinch in the game is boring most of the time and doesn't resemble a real fight anyway. Actually if it was to emulate a real MMA fight it should be endless pushing against the cage with little punches and pointless weak knees so that is not exactly what the engine should do.

1 hour ago, jjsquirrel said:

(…) any change in fight engine balance need to be considered carefully, because what we have right now works despite the flaws.

Yes that's true. 

[flamesnoopy]

4 hours ago, Daudy said:

They don't spam knees because that's an easy way to gas yourself or there are other factors (like whether you believe height plays a part).

Nerfing punches in the clinch won't really solve the issue. People are still going to prioritise training punches since they can be used more widely. You're not going to see fighters built where they now replace training punches with elbows or knees instead. All you're doing is making the clinch game just worse in general.

The whole discussion about making the clinch more realistic by reducing punches is kind of odd to me anyway. Most MMA fights in real life that go to the clinch primarily revolve around dirty boxing? Elbows and knees are thrown now and then and not something that is spammed. Some fighters pretty much never throw elbows or knees, and they don't have some skill point cap that is preventing them from learning it (or throwing said technique outside of the clinch). Some of that is because the upright posture throwing knees non-stop Muay Thai style would just get you taken down and in a disadvantageous position on the ground (where again, unlike the purist sport in BJJ, the ability to throw punches changes the dynamic).

Your vision for what the clinch game should look like seems to be entirely based on Muay Thai and not what happens in MMA or even other kickboxing rulesets. Clinching isn't even allowed in a lot of kickboxing rulesets!

It's exponentially more difficult to learn the knee and elbow game in real life than it is to learn how to throw punches in the clinch. Not to say that dirty boxing is easy, but even I know how to dirty box but landing effective knees for example is very difficult. Also, there are not many fighters utilizing a Muay Thai style in MMA and most that utilize a kickboxing style are not even good at it. Most MMA fighters don't even have the technique to throw proper kicks. I guess UFC would have around 700-800 fighters out of which only a handful have proper kicking technique. And that is supposedly the organization with the highest level of MMA fighters. Kicking is incredibly easy to learn compared to knees and elbows in my opinion. It doesn't take a long time for a complete beginner to learn how to kick with proper coaching (talking about basic kicks). Throwing knees non-stop is extremely difficult in any case, I think the reason some Muay Thai fights have ridiculous amount of knees is simply because the rule set strongly courages aggression and you will get heavily penalized for even falling back. Thus, the fighters are more inclined to throw offence than to prioritize defence. Obviously it's not the case with every Muay Thai fighter, if they are not good in the clinch they will just stall like literally almost every MMA fighter will. MMA clinch is definitely not a Frye vs. Takayama. In the game it is completely. Like RegularJohn said, most MMA fights in the clinch is a hug fest and they don't even have the ability to throw proper clinch knees. MMA fighters are far better at step-in knees.

If it's not beating a dead horse (no pun intended), why do you think it would make the clinch game worse to make less punches land in the clinch? I'm genuinely curious. I think maybe we are getting too caught up on the wording of "Make punches less effective". Correct me if I'm wrong, but I assumed RegularJohn meant not to make punches less effective, but to decrease the amount of punches landed in the clinch. To add to that, I would argue that the amount of finishes in the clinch with punches is too high in the game (though others may disagree).

On a side note, I'm getting the feeling that I'm in the minority in thinking that the fight engine has numerous flaws that would definitely need fixing. For example, the amount of cut stoppages, knockouts in general (except low weights, where it's not enough knockouts), but worst of all, the referee stand ups are completely unrealistic and make grapplers far less effective than in real life. But to fix the stand up issue we would actually need to have time in the fights (e.g. every action takes a number of seconds and the fight clock is actually ticking down, instead of it just being lines of text and magically the fight ends). For me personally, the biggest change out of all on the wishlist would be adding time, but I know it's a huge task as every line of play-by-play would need to reviewed and that's just not going to happen.

[RegularJohn]

1 hour ago, flamesnoopy said:

[…] maybe we are getting too caught up on the wording of "Make punches less effective". Correct me if I'm wrong, but I assumed RegularJohn meant not to make punches less effective, but to decrease the amount of punches landed in the clinch.

On a side note, I'm getting the feeling that I'm in the minority in thinking that the fight engine has numerous flaws that would definitely need fixing. For example, the amount of cut stoppages, knockouts in general (except low weights, where it's not enough knockouts), but worst of all, the referee stand ups are completely unrealistic and make grapplers far less effective than in real life. But to fix the stand up issue we would actually need to have time in the fights (e.g. every action takes a number of seconds and the fight clock is actually ticking down, instead of it just being lines of text and magically the fight ends). For me personally, the biggest change out of all on the wishlist would be adding time, but I know it's a huge task as every line of play-by-play would need to reviewed and that's just not going to happen.

Yes the wording was probably a mistake on my part. I meant more like "Make punches less effective in relation to Knees and Elbows".

As for the problem with the ref stand ups, I believe it would be significantly improved by simply allowing more moves on the ground per minute, in other words, slowing down time on the ground. The problem with the ground game is that it is far too easy to stall because a couple lines of text amount to a minute in the fight engine. While in the stand up you get an endless stream of lines with millions of punches and kicks being thrown.

[Carraz22]

In game clinch is definitely not realistic to real life and I agree that knees and elbows should be much more effective in the clinch than punches - which is the case in real life.

Its pretty rare these days to see someone manhandle their opponent in the clinch and get repeated powerful punches off. 

There probably needs to be a damage meter in the clinch section of the sliders. And if your fighter is set to high damage then they are more likely to do powerful punches, but that should come with the risk of you opponent being able to break the clinch easier. Currently its too easy to stay in the clinch and throw damaging punches.

 

[Daudy]

9 hours ago, flamesnoopy said:

It's exponentially more difficult to learn the knee and elbow game in real life than it is to learn how to throw punches in the clinch. Not to say that dirty boxing is easy, but even I know how to dirty box but landing effective knees for example is very difficult. Also, there are not many fighters utilizing a Muay Thai style in MMA and most that utilize a kickboxing style are not even good at it.

This is exactly why if we're being 'realistic' about an MMA simulator, that effective knees and elbows being thrown being rare is actually correct. Most real fighters don't utilise it at all - just like on tycoon.

 

9 hours ago, flamesnoopy said:

MMA clinch is definitely not a Frye vs. Takayama. In the game it is completely. Like RegularJohn said, most MMA fights in the clinch is a hug fest and they don't even have the ability to throw proper clinch knees.

 

11 hours ago, RegularJohn said:

Actually if it was to emulate a real MMA fight it should be endless pushing against the cage with little punches and pointless weak knees so that is not exactly what the engine should do.

The thing is, there is a stall function for the clinch sliders which work similar to the control function on ground sliders and you can turn it into a hug fest. The reason you don't see much stalling compared to control on the ground is because there are a lot of defensive minded grapplers who know three successful controls in a row or some control and ineffective offence gets the fight stood up. I don't know if many people actually know this, but it's literally the same thing in a clinch - the ref WILL separate if you get multiple stalls. People just don't use it, because unlike a lot of defensive ground guys, they actually have a way to fight back and people tend to prefer to attempt to break clinch if they're so inclined. I'm not convinced a majority of people even know this is a thing. I'm told by people high level guys like Tosen/Freako Wimp are one of the few who have utilised this successfully, but given he's mostly going through the motions these days I don't think even he does it.

So yes, it's definitely possible to stall it out if you don't want to engage too much. However, obviously the guys that want to be in the clinch aren't going to stall, they're going to fire off as much offence as they can get. There's definitely nuances to the clinch game sliders that aren't all just spam punches... otherwise you wouldn't see some fighters/managers that are just way better generally than others in there (Gwad is pretty good, etc).

Which brings me to the next point:

9 hours ago, flamesnoopy said:

If it's not beating a dead horse (no pun intended), why do you think it would make the clinch game worse to make less punches land in the clinch? I'm genuinely curious. I think maybe we are getting too caught up on the wording of "Make punches less effective". Correct me if I'm wrong, but I assumed RegularJohn meant not to make punches less effective, but to decrease the amount of punches landed in the clinch. To add to that, I would argue that the amount of finishes in the clinch with punches is too high in the game (though others may disagree).

You don't think decreasing the amount of offence landed in a clinch would make it more boring? Just large spaces of guys swinging and missing?

Like I said, people probably ideally WOULD like some knees or elbows (or both) on their fighter but it's currently not being built on a lot of guys for reasons outside of their effectiveness. Making punches worse in the clinch relative to knees/elbows doesn't do anything that addresses WHY people aren't prioritising knees/elbows in their build. It just means that instead of two guys landing offensive punches in the clinch, it's now two guys swinging and mysteriously missing the guy right there.

It also means guys who choose to be grapplers are even more stuffed because they already have to cover additional skills and realistically they will never have the points/time to also build out luxury clinch skills.

10 hours ago, flamesnoopy said:

To add to that, I would argue that the amount of finishes in the clinch with punches is too high in the game (though others may disagree).

Anecdotal I know, but this is not really my experience particularly at HW where I have a bazillion fighters usually in the mix for the top org belts. Conscious that I usually run with lanky guys who prefer not to clinch, but the meta there is counter damage at distance. I dunno if it's more prevalent at other levels - I've seen some pretty dire situations where all people do is spam aggro break clinch with no clinch skills (and thus are never able to break said clinch and just get mauled).

The exception of course is the legendary Leif Leifsson who I have recently inherited. You'll note in this 3 wins so far, twice he's rocked the opponent with an elbow and then in the third the KO blow was also an elbow.... But yeah he sacrifices having no kicks for that - which is a big weakness.

[Daudy]

8 hours ago, RegularJohn said:

Yes the wording was probably a mistake on my part. I meant more like "Make punches less effective in relation to Knees and Elbows".

Knees and elbows already ARE more effective in relation than punches. Elbows are straight upgrades in terms of cutting power, and tbh, I don't think there's much difference in KO power between them and punches. Knees are devastating if hit, but you have to be wary of spamming.

I'm not saying stuff in the fight engine is perfect or shouldn't be changed, but I just don't see how making punches worse achieves anything other than even more boring clinch games (unrealistic or not). I'd actually think doing so might even get people to consider finally using stall tactics to get clinch ref separation because now opponents can't land offence as easily. Then we get the overeager referee ground standup issue introduced to the clinch game too!

Like I said, people are already not integrating better clinch weapons like knees in their builds for a reason DESPITE them being a super clinch tool already. Making punches worse doesn't change that fundamental reason. People are still going to train punches and kicks over them because that's all they have time/skill cap for.

 

 

 

A better change would be to enable knees/elbows to be used at range to some limited extent (the flying knee flavour finish is actually just a head kick currently). Then people would likely consider swapping out something like kicks for it. Get the better clinch tool that can still be used somewhat at range vs the much better range tool that can't be used in the clinch. Both are viable options, and now you get more people with more diverse clinch builds.

[flamesnoopy]

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This is exactly why if we're being 'realistic' about an MMA simulator, that effective knees and elbows being thrown being rare is actually correct. Most real fighters don't utilise it at all - just like on tycoon.

It's not just a MMA simulator though, we also have KT but I think no-one cares about that one 😅 

 

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So yes, it's definitely possible to stall it out if you don't want to engage too much. However, obviously the guys that want to be in the clinch aren't going to stall, they're going to fire off as much offence as they can get. There's definitely nuances to the clinch game sliders that aren't all just spam punches... otherwise you wouldn't see some fighters/managers that are just way better generally than others in there (Gwad is pretty good, etc).

Doesn't change the fact that the number of punches that can be landed in the clinch is completely unrealistic. Even if you go full aggro you shouldn't be able to land the amount of punches that is possible currently. Just because someone is aggressive doesn't mean they have the accuracy, technique and timing in real life to land in the clinch.

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You don't think decreasing the amount of offence landed in a clinch would make it more boring? Just large spaces of guys swinging and missing?

Nope I don't. Anything to make the fight engine more realistic I am in favor of. And I never read play-by-play, once you have done around a 100 fights you have seen every line of text since nothing has been added in like a decade. I just skim the fights. I know you can occasionally learn some tidbit about your fighter by reading all of the play-by-play but I don't care enough really.

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Like I said, people probably ideally WOULD like some knees or elbows (or both) on their fighter but it's currently not being built on a lot of guys for reasons outside of their effectiveness. Making punches worse in the clinch relative to knees/elbows doesn't do anything that addresses WHY people aren't prioritising knees/elbows in their build.

Yes you are right, but I have completely given up hope that the broken skill caps would actually be fixed. If the skill caps would be made more realistic, there would be less need - or even no need - for this particular suggestion. But I don't think that's going to happen.

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It also means guys who choose to be grapplers are even more stuffed because they already have to cover additional skills and realistically they will never have the points/time to also build out luxury clinch skills.

Grapplers can still go for takedowns and pull guard though, it's a weapon in it's own there. But it's a fair point to raise here.

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Anecdotal I know, but this is not really my experience particularly at HW where I have a bazillion fighters usually in the mix for the top org belts.

Heavyweight is so different to any other weight class in my personal experience. It might be the one weight class where it actually is effective. Especially knees to the body.

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Knees and elbows already ARE more effective in relation than punches. Elbows are straight upgrades in terms of cutting power, and tbh, I don't think there's much difference in KO power between them and punches. Knees are devastating if hit, but you have to be wary of spamming.

In my experience elbows land far less frequently than punches, so I don't think it's a fair argument to say that they are more effective. They are less effective because you can land a 100 punches to like 12 elbows. You will always lose on the cards and you will probably lose either way. Knees are effective, yes. I'm not sure if you meant that there's not much difference in real life in punches or elbows or in the game? In real life I'd take a punch in the face from the clinch all day instead of an elbow. Getting punched has that weird satisfaction to it, getting elbowed - not so much 🤣

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I'm not saying stuff in the fight engine is perfect or shouldn't be changed, but I just don't see how making punches worse achieves anything other than even more boring clinch games (unrealistic or not). I'd actually think doing so might even get people to consider finally using stall tactics to get clinch ref separation because now opponents can't land offence as easily. Then we get the overeager referee ground standup issue introduced to the clinch game too!

It would achieve a more realistic clinch game, which I am in favor of. More stall tactics - realistic. Less punches landed - realistic. Clinch break ups happen far quicker than ground stand ups in real life, since there's less likelihood of having an advantageous position that "shouldn't" be lost because of the ref. I don't see an issue there.

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Like I said, people are already not integrating better clinch weapons like knees in their builds for a reason DESPITE them being a super clinch tool already. Making punches worse doesn't change that fundamental reason. People are still going to train punches and kicks over them because that's all they have time/skill cap for.

I wouldn't categorize them as a "super clinch tool". This would make it more advantegous to learn those skills though, which would of course diversify the builds even if it's only slightly. More diversity in builds is more realistic.

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A better change would be to enable knees/elbows to be used at range to some limited extent (the flying knee flavour finish is actually just a head kick currently). Then people would likely consider swapping out something like kicks for it. Get the better clinch tool that can still be used somewhat at range vs the much better range tool that can't be used in the clinch. Both are viable options, and now you get more people with more diverse clinch builds.

Yeah, step-in/flying knees and step-in/spinning elbows should definitely be added. But I would still like to have the original suggestion implemented as well.

I guess much of this is personal preference. Most managers have no interest in KT for "some" reason. I don't care about the play-by-play text, someone else might. Either way, I appreciate the discussion and your lengthy and detailed response. It's good to see the forum actually has become a more positive place and less of a cesspit of trolls.

Good luck with Sol Peter today. Let's see if you can tie the score from the 6-5 now to 6-6! (Probably yes)

[RegularJohn]

I believe the discussion started to go in circles, I kinda lost track of it. I'll make two points regarding things that were said - please don't take it personally, I'll just emphasize my opinion, not disregarding other people's:

1) Arguing that Knees are already more effective than punches in the clinch is a bizarro world claim IMHO. e.g. My top Knee fighter that I ever had who I consider a Knee monster still lands 2+ Punches for each Kneee in average; disclaimer: maybe the wording is not correct here - if he lands few Knees but is a great Knee fighter, then Knees are very effective? --> the point is that Knees land much less than Punches;

2) The stall technique in the clinch is meaningless in this discussion. it is one of the rarest occurrences in the whole game - perhaps because everybody uses high aggression in the clinch --> but if everybody uses high aggression in the clinch because it is the best strategy, and because of this, clinch breaks are very rare, then clinch breaks are rare, regardless of the reason why. For years nobody in my alliance even knew that clinch breaks existed, after like 4 years playing hardcore I was shocked when I saw a clinch break for the first time. and I saw like 2-3 in ~8 years playing the game!