Making Strength and Cardio Actually Mean Something?

[ajperok]

I love this game, and have very few complaints.

 

However, I do feel strongly about one. With 4 primaries, 11 secondaries and 6 physicals we have to pick and choose where we spend our time training. As we age, things train slower, there is talk about decreasing abilities with age- so I'm assuming the 15 across the board fighter will never exist. I certainly hope not.

 

Yet why is Strength and Cardio so darn easy to raise? It's almost gospel that you go to at least wonderful, eventually sensational.

IT'S WAY TOO EASY!!!

 

There are guys who are stronger than others, there are guys who are way fitter than others even at the pinnacle of MMA.

 

Personally I would say decrease every single fighter in MMA Tycoons strength and cardio by 30% across the board, and institute the same type of training requirements needed to raise your other attributes to strength and cardio.

 

If someone wants to have sensational strength, make them train hard to get it. Because, as of right now- training strength and cardio is more of a step1, step2, step3 then any kind strategy. Might as well just start us all at Wonderful- or remove them all together.- because they are relatively meaningless as they are.

[jiggy]

Are you joking?

[fasaani]

they mean a lot. try it out at some point.

[nuarh]

The TS is pointing out the fact that strength and cardio is a null point because pretty much EVERY fighter has at least remarkable or wonderful in those two stats. If training strength and cardio were more difficult, we would see more diversity between fighters. This would also make creating fighters with higher levels of Str or Cardio more viable, allowing new players to more quickly jump into the game and have some fun. I think it is definitely something to consider, +1.

 

[garycoffey15]

-1 Even in realm life conditioning can be done in a month or so where as skill takes time

[Face Kicker]

-1

 

but i do think something should be implemented where they (physicals) all decrease over time. the higher the stat is, the faster it will decrease (i.e. perhaps you'd need to do one session of weights every other week in order to keep it at wonderful, one session every week to keep it at exceptional, two sesions every week to keep it at sensational, etc.). and the older the fighter is, the faster it will decrease.

[MMATycoon]

It's something that I'll be changing up a bit, so that we do get some general decreases over time, like we already have with conditioning. I think it probably makes sense to apply that to all skills and attributes, in varying degrees, if you don't train certain things for a long time.

[Guest]

^i dont know who that guy is, but he makes a great point!

[JamesCozad]

A system of decay seems proper, but setting the proper values of decay can make or break it. Since there's no fighter at the age of 30 yet, physically even if they train something like CT once or twice a week they should maintain most if not all their physical attributes to avoid the decay. And for the most part, MMA fighters don't even bother to hit their so called prime until late 20's early 30's, which we've yet to see in this game yet.

 

What I'm saying is that if a decay system for physicals is put in(not really a question of it, more a question of when), it shouldn't penalize heavily, something similar to the current rate of Cardio decay for inactivity is enough, and as a fighter gets really old - then the decay greatly increases. Obviously though you have your real world exceptions in "old men" who fight like Don Frye, Randy Couture, Sakuraba, Ken Shamrock, Dan Severn, etc. All I'm saying is I hope the physical decay isn't something stupid and absurd like in UFC Undisputed 2010 where you can not train for a week and next thing you know all the stuff you learned and trained for simply take a nosedive.

 

As for skills decay in say primaries or secondaries, I hope those don't decay over time as well, it'd require too much maintenance for a fighter and makes the game more tedious and less fun imo.

[garycoffey15]

A system of decay seems proper, but setting the proper values of decay can make or break it. Since there's no fighter at the age of 30 yet, physically even if they train something like CT once or twice a week they should maintain most if not all their physical attributes to avoid the decay. And for the most part, MMA fighters don't even bother to hit their so called prime until late 20's early 30's, which we've yet to see in this game yet.

 

What I'm saying is that if a decay system for physicals is put in(not really a question of it, more a question of when), it shouldn't penalize heavily, something similar to the current rate of Cardio decay for inactivity is enough, and as a fighter gets really old - then the decay greatly increases. Obviously though you have your real world exceptions in "old men" who fight like Don Frye, Randy Couture, Sakuraba, Ken Shamrock, Dan Severn, etc. All I'm saying is I hope the physical decay isn't something stupid and absurd like in UFC Undisputed 2010 where you can not train for a week and next thing you know all the stuff you learned and trained for simply take a nosedive.

 

As for skills decay in say primaries or secondaries, I hope those don't decay over time as well, it'd require too much maintenance for a fighter and makes the game more tedious and less fun imo.

 

Yeah gotta agree with the ufc2010 point, but i recon maby 32 would be a good age to start declining and maby the older you get the faster certain things decline.

But factor in experience aswell to still have the older fighter have something going for them

[DougSupreme]

Yeah gotta agree with the ufc2010 point, but i recon maby 32 would be a good age to start declining and maby the older you get the faster certain things decline.

But factor in experience aswell to still have the older fighter have something going for them

 

I think that skills shouldn't decline with age although physicals should. You don't lose knowledge when you get older, you lose the physical ability to execute the techniques.

 

I tend to agree with the OP. I think strength and cardio should be harder to get to the top levels. At this point in the GAME, there's no thought involved in training those two stats. Run 'em both to wonderful or better, and then leave 'em alone. If they were harder to train, then you would have to make design choices with your fighter's physicals. If you wanna have Sensational Cardio, it's at the expense of having lower strength, or flexibility. If it took the same time to raise Cardio and Strength as it does to raise balance, you'd see a wide variance in physical skills based on their starting allocations. Right now, it takes around 150 sessions to get to wonderful or better physicals. All of them. IMO it should take quite a bit more to achieve these levels, so something else would suffer terribly.

 

JMO

[CardiffWanderer]

Decline was always going to be something that was going to happen. However, I think (and its safe to assume Mike will have been giving this some thought) that its needs to be implemented carefully. Perhaps start with physicals and then give it some time to see how it works out.

[Stu_Pidasol]

A change like this would be great for fighter diversity like the others have already mentioned. It would also change the standard 1 and 10 cardio start that every goes for these days.

 

The downside is it would put new players to the game further behind the 8 ball, long term managers have the cash to throw new fighters straight into $600 per week gyms and can wack there fighters straight into CT classes with minimal numbers (a change like this would make CT the smarter way to go) newer players don't have that luxury meaning str and cardio is basically all they can afford until there fighters have won a couple of OFC's and land a decent contract.

[Guest]

the point of a game is to be fun

 

creating a new fighter is just about as fun as any other experience on this game. its exhilerating! but after you create a fighter and your all pumped up and excited, ridin a high and you want to fight him to see how he does.....oh wait, you got to train him for 3 weeks becos your forced to go 1 and 10. talk about a turd in the punch bowl!

 

its kind of like telling someone that they won the lottery but they cant spend any of it for 3 weeks. way to rain on a parade!

 

i cant understand how mike cant see that thats a flaw in his game. like i said before, its a game. the goal should be to maximize the fun activities and minimize the buzz kills.

 

i agree with the original poster. if its a 123 motion that everyone's gonna do anyways then why not just eliminate it or let everyone just start out like that? i mean seriously

[ajperok]

I'm a little confused as to why people wouldn't want this? We don't all have the same Strike D, we don't all have the same Boxing?

 

What is wrong with having guys with 9 strength and guys with 14 strength. As long as the guy with 14 had to sacrifice training time to get there?

As for Cardio, sure, it's not hard to get to a "respectable" level.

Look at your top 10 ranked heavyweights in MMA according to MMA Weekly

1. Brock Lesnar

2. Fabricio Werdum

3. Fedor Emelianenko

4. Cain Velasquez

5. Junior Dos Santos

6. Shane Carwin

7. Alistair Overeem

8. Frank Mir

9. Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira

10. Brett Rogers

 

Don't argue the rankings (they aren't mine)- but do you really think each of these guys is essentially equal in strength and cardio? Carwin couldn't even get through the 2nd round, Does Fedor even get tired? Do you really think Frank Mir is just as strong as Brock Lesnor. AND THESE ARE THE TOP EXAMPLES- there are guys fighting in MMA who simply "are out of shape" when you get down into the 1000's- "if it only took a month to train in real life"- like someone said, I'd imagine each of these guys would be our equivalent of a 12-13+ There not. Meanwhile if we take our top 10 heavyweights, does anyone think there are any that aren't "sensational"?

 

I refuse to see how it is somehow taking away from the "fun".. by letting one manager create a stronger or fitter fighter than another.

[Guest]

I refuse to see how it is somehow taking away from the "fun".. by letting one manager create a stronger or fitter fighter than another.

 

The issue is that your proposal doesn't actually do anything other than add 2-3 weeks to training time. People will still train their guy up to sensation before using them, now it will just be slower.

 

The stat decay Mike mentioned will help ensure some fighter diversity over the long haul, nerfing strength just means even long to market with fighters.

 

New guys who "take advantage" of this and create a guy with 110 strength will just be fighting guys who didn't and trained theirs up for a few weeks longer. End result is actually making that initial lead in time longer for new people who actually want to win a fight.

 

Even with the frankly ludicrous idea of dropping everyone's existing strength rating by 30% it wouldn't do anything. Essentially you would have parity at first followed by a 2-3 week concentration on strength training and the user base is back to exactly where it started from to no purpose.

 

Same for Cardio, right now any serious manager is going to train their cardio to the moon because it affects all aspects of your training via energy levels. Making it take longer just means people will train it longer (what fun).

 

When new people start the game now they can get some easy training "wins" and see fighter progress by training Strength and Cardio up. If we nerf that we don't end up with more fun, we end up less as non-VIP's see even less progress when they start the game. We have tiered QFCs which stopped a lot of the initial heartache of new users fighting projects. Mike has proposed stat decay to promote disparity in the late game for old timers. I would say this is a problem that has already been solved.

 

-1

[ajperok]

The issue is that your proposal doesn't actually do anything other than add 2-3 weeks to training time. People will still train their guy up to sensation before using them, now it will just be slower.

 

The stat decay Mike mentioned will help ensure some fighter diversity over the long haul, nerfing strength just means even long to market with fighters.

 

New guys who "take advantage" of this and create a guy with 110 strength will just be fighting guys who didn't and trained theirs up for a few weeks longer. End result is actually making that initial lead in time longer for new people who actually want to win a fight.

 

Even with the frankly ludicrous idea of dropping everyone's existing strength rating by 30% it wouldn't do anything. Essentially you would have parity at first followed by a 2-3 week concentration on strength training and the user base is back to exactly where it started from to no purpose.

 

Same for Cardio, right now any serious manager is going to train their cardio to the moon because it affects all aspects of your training via energy levels. Making it take longer just means people will train it longer (what fun).

 

When new people start the game now they can get some easy training "wins" and see fighter progress by training Strength and Cardio up. If we nerf that we don't end up with more fun, we end up less as non-VIP's see even less progress when they start the game. We have tiered QFCs which stopped a lot of the initial heartache of new users fighting projects. Mike has proposed stat decay to promote disparity in the late game for old timers. I would say this is a problem that has already been solved.

 

-1

 

I understand that point, but I don't understand why we have set strength and cardio aside and said "these two are different"?

 

Would you create a guy with 110 strength- taking all those points away from speed,agility,balance etc? Knowing that the training times on those attributes aren't so quick? Maybe, but it would be a choice. As opposed to "just start strength at 1 and you'll be 13 in 30+ sessions or so"- so put your points elsewhere.

Your essentially saying strength and conditioning should just be taken for granted because people would train them up anyway and it's not fun to train- so people would quit.

I say, You already have a large contingent of people who create an 18 year old fighter and hold them out to they think they are "perfect". IMO, Perfect comes to quickly. Strength and Cardio are a part of that. Muscle isn't just snapping your fingers, especially at 18,19,20...

IF TWO PEOPLE START WEIGHT TRAINING, ONE 5 YEARS AGO, and ONE LAST YEAR- ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL THE ONE WHO STARTED

5 YEARS AGO WILL BE CONSIDERABLY STRONGER. IN our game, the 19 year old will be = to the 23 year old, because they have both maxed out. That is not at all accurate.

 

It's part of keeping the game challenging. It shouldn't be so quick to get that "perfect" project fighter.... The game is fun. But right now,

we are putting so much emphasis on training, that the fighting aspect is starting to lag because everyone has this pre-concepetion of exactly what a fighter needs to look like before they fight.

 

I wonder what it would be like if there were no 150 cap on strength? and you could just increase it to infinity?

[Guest]

We don't have a single Perfect fighter in the game... not for physicals, not for primaries, and not for secondaries let alone all 3. If we did, I would consider your argument to have merit but frankly for an onlien browser game we already have a far longer lifespan per player than most others. We have had folks develop guys since the origination of the game who still aren't even close to Perfect. There may be 2% of the user base who will play this game for more than a year, making the training take longer won't help get or keep new players or keep the 2%.

[jiggy]

I understand that point, but I don't understand why we have set strength and cardio aside and said "these two are different"?

 

Would you create a guy with 110 strength- taking all those points away from speed,agility,balance etc? Knowing that the training times on those attributes aren't so quick? Maybe, but it would be a choice. As opposed to "just start strength at 1 and you'll be 13 in 30+ sessions or so"- so put your points elsewhere.

Your essentially saying strength and conditioning should just be taken for granted because people would train them up anyway and it's not fun to train- so people would quit.

I say, You already have a large contingent of people who create an 18 year old fighter and hold them out to they think they are "perfect". IMO, Perfect comes to quickly. Strength and Cardio are a part of that. Muscle isn't just snapping your fingers, especially at 18,19,20...

IF TWO PEOPLE START WEIGHT TRAINING, ONE 5 YEARS AGO, and ONE LAST YEAR- ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL THE ONE WHO STARTED

5 YEARS AGO WILL BE CONSIDERABLY STRONGER. IN our game, the 19 year old will be = to the 23 year old, because they have both maxed out. That is not at all accurate.

 

It's part of keeping the game challenging. It shouldn't be so quick to get that "perfect" project fighter.... The game is fun. But right now,

we are putting so much emphasis on training, that the fighting aspect is starting to lag because everyone has this pre-concepetion of exactly what a fighter needs to look like before they fight.

 

I wonder what it would be like if there were no 150 cap on strength? and you could just increase it to infinity?

 

 

I think you forget that training in this game does not occur in real time. The game speed is I believe 3 times that of real life therefore this month you speak of to achieve a high level of strength, actually in game time takes 3 or 4 months. And that is absolutely realistic.

 

Also, you said why should cardio and strength be separate from other physicals How about because they are? You can't just learn agility in 3 months. Or flexibility or any other physical besides the two in question.

 

Nothing is broken, greywar makes great points, don't fix it.

 

-1

 

EDIT: You don't think if you lifted weights everyday for 3 or 4 months that you would have say wonderful strength?

[ajperok]

Respectfully- NO

I am 39 years old, I started lifting weights when I was 16. At various times in my life I have worked as a physical trainer, and played sports in college and internationally later. The answer is NO- you will not have wonderful strength in 3 or 4 months, even if you did steroids.

 

With 1 being the weakest person and 15 being a massively strong powerlifter- In 3 to 4 months you could probably get to "competent" (6) strength.

 

I do currently work out 4 or 5 days a week, I weight 210 pounds, my bench press hovers around 300 pounds or a little less right now. That is "at best" considered strong(9). I am not even in the top 25% of the people in my gym in regards to strength. At my best when I was 30 years old, working out 5 days a week and using illegal substances my bench was around 350. That might be "superb or remarkable"... again there are plenty of people much stronger.

---

 

I realize personnal anectdote's don't always carry much weight- regardless, so here are a few facts-

 

George Halbert did 733 bench at 215 bodyweight. All time world record, and was age 35.

Steve Goggins set the all time world record squat at just over 1100 lbs at about 255 bodyweight and was aged 39.

Scott Mendelson benched over 800, and closed in on 900 at 320 lbs bodyweight and was 35 years old.

Garry Frank, all time record holder in the total, and at one time in the deadlift, was 38 when he did his highest total ( I beleive).

With the exception of Marius Pudjenowski (sp?) the recent Worlds Strongest Man winners have been in their mid 30's.

 

there are a few exceptions, but do you see the common denominator? Strength doesn't peak at age 19, it is a long slow process, not a finger snap.

 

I'm just saying to have every fighter as (12+) wonderful strength in MMA is far fetched, and shouldn't be possible. There should be some sacrifice if you want to make a super strong guy.

DEFINITION EXCEPTIONAL: exceeding: far beyond what is usual in magnitude or degree;

if everyone is "exceptional".... then by definition, it's normal, not exceptional. Currently exceptional strength= normal in our game

[Anon]

I'm 100% with the OP.

 

Make us choose through our builds and our training where we want our points. If we choose to have Exceptional Strength or Cardio, then fine; but make training them to that point take so long that we're missing out on training other stats, primaries, and secondaries.

 

I'm not for skill decline outside of the Cardio that we have and outside of aging, which should start with physicals around 30 and increase quickly after that.

 

Heck, if we were starting from scratch, I'd say to even be more radical and to have Weights/Cardio almost as slow as yoga, with more points to distribute among physicals but having to start a fighter strong if you wanted a strong fighter.

 

It's too late for that, but the OP has the right idea: Decrease everyone's Str/Cardio by 30% and make Weights/Cardio train about 3 times more slowly (or maybe half speed up to 100, but then 5 times as slowly above 100). Most people wouldn't train them that high, which is exactly the point. It would add more strategy to creating/training fighters.

[Guest]

I'm just saying to have every fighter as (12+) wonderful strength in MMA is far fetched, and shouldn't be possible. There should be some sacrifice if you want to make a super strong guy.

 

There is, if you want Elite+ (red belt equivalent) strength or Elite++ in this game "super strong" you will have to sacrifice training time. It take a LOT of weights with 159++ supps to make it to Elite++ and few fighters ever make it. Simply making it to Elite- takes a lot of weights many never make it that far either.

 

 

This is only a problem for the impatient, if you are patient you can take 2 years of real time and train your guy to be "perfect" in at least a few things, it would take longer by far to make them Perfect in everything and we simply aren't close to that point.

 

You could argue that it should take 30% longer at each strength level but that just adds 30% to the time that people will spend on it an does nothing else.

 

In online games people will take the time to grind. This is what is happening. People grind strength and cardio because they are the single 2 most important attributes in the game period.

 

 

So if you wan't to mandate fighter diversity in this environment the answer doesn't lie with training because no matter what it is it is the same for everyone, the sats are key, and everyone will do it.

 

You could argue that every fighter should have a hidden "cap" or some sort of genetics system but then people would simply train strength first, judge the cap and if it was too low they would cut them and create a new one. This is what many do now with learning speed.

 

 

What you are arguing about it simply a feature of online MMO's with attributes. If something is important, people will seek to maximize it like clockwork. Strength and Cardio are factored in nearly every action in the game. Because of this they get the most training attention and everyone ends up with high strength and cardio since to do otherwise is to lose.

[Guest]

I think that skills shouldn't decline with age although physicals should. You don't lose knowledge when you get older, you lose the physical ability to execute the techniques.

 

I tend to agree with the OP. I think strength and cardio should be harder to get to the top levels. At this point in the GAME, there's no thought involved in training those two stats. Run 'em both to wonderful or better, and then leave 'em alone. If they were harder to train, then you would have to make design choices with your fighter's physicals. If you wanna have Sensational Cardio, it's at the expense of having lower strength, or flexibility. If it took the same time to raise Cardio and Strength as it does to raise balance, you'd see a wide variance in physical skills based on their starting allocations. Right now, it takes around 150 sessions to get to wonderful or better physicals. All of them. IMO it should take quite a bit more to achieve these levels, so something else would suffer terribly.

 

JMO

you should be able to have sensational everything if you want, in the real world there is no max skill level. a fighter could have sensational flexibility and strength if they stretch and weight train. but when a fighter is old his stats should very slowly decrease. but there shouldnt be a limit to the amount of points you can have, it would take yrs to filter out all the fighters over the point limit anyways, you cant just cut there stats and throw away all there time training to make the switch.

[jiggy]

So I guess it's unfair I could just skip training and make a fighter with wonderful strength?

[jiggy]

Hell, maybe we should just start all fighters with 0 stats. It's kind of unrealistic to be able to train up from useless wrestling to Sensational in just a few months. Or Boxing, or Mt, or GNP, or Punches, etc, etc....

 

WHAT I CAN GET A BLACK BELT IN UNDER A YEAR??? FUCK THIS GAME