About skill decrease/max cap/escapes

[verbalkint]

Hey Mike!

 

As mentioned in other threads, i'm pretty disappointed with the situation around the (connected) topics Escapes/Skill Decrease/Skill Cap. I know you're steadily working on the game and that often we just see stuff on the surface which very likely is just a small, fractional amount of the whole shebang. I mention that because i know posts like the following must be frustrating sometimes, so the last i want is to turn this into a general critic, but i feel something needs to be done (if not already in the making) and i try to make this as constructive as possible. You got us Tycoon nuts hooked and our full support anyways, keep that in mind alright lol....

 

I played the game most of the time as quite a can... at some point i decided to make a big roster cut to build up the next generation of fighters in a professional way – well tested fighters with ok learning speed and chins, great training (without beastfarm gym [cause i enjoy the business side of the game and would certainly miss it with a own small gym exclusive for my guys] but with a great ratio like ~30 fighters maybe). I invested a lot of Vip time in project research – i'm not saying this puts me in a position to demand something, not at all, i just want to point out that i put much blood, sweat and tears in it. Anyways... this generation reaches the Mid-20's now and gets close to the cap already. It was build shortly before skill-relocation and pre-cap.

 

In the relcation process, i have invested heavily in escapes because of my so lala groundgame... defense first, i thought i can work on their offense when finishing off the builds – at that point there was no cap. Soon i found out that successfull escapes need quite a busy/agressive groundgame... which gave ground specialists way too much space, so i kinda abandonned the escapes and went with a more passive game which got boosted by the possibility of ref standups.

Then the cap kicked in... and with it the rise of fighters like Womba. Still at this point you can call me a friend of this decision. Still it's the point where the escapes really began to hurt.

 

Well, i thought let's just fight trough it... the skills which don't get trained will decrease, all it will cost me is time but for that i get a well-balanced tycoon world with new perspectives for grapplers, MT specialists and so on. And i still believe in this and that you made theright step there in general. But...

 

BIG PROBLEM: Since month i do not touch escape training. I have 2-3 guys at cap... one young guy who is totally stuck cause i can't give him takedowns... he has escapes and a offensive groundgame, but he is done with f'n 25 or 26, without beastfarm training. Not escape decrease steadily, all the high end main skills depop! An old schmo grappler of mine has feeble-- escapes... i'm just training his main skills to avoid depop but nothign at all happens with those escapes!? Feeble--, who cares? Those are 3 possible primary pops!

 

Let's brainstorm a bit on possible solutions. You have pretty much explained why you do not want some sort of active de-training. Basically, the idea would be to just put a "-" in front of the session the fighters takes in the gym. I think it would be a functional system... no shortterm changes for fight preparation possible, but in the long run you can effectively fix a fighter build. Motivating for managers also. I totally get the realism argument of yours, so let's close the chapter.

 

So what would be the best compromise? I think it got pretty much obvious by my previous explaination. No active de-training, but the decrease of skills must primarily affect the skills that do not get trained, not the high end skills... them too but focus on the training-wise abandonned skills.

I think this is the way to go... a passive process which also brings the benefit of longterm motivation for managers – because their training still means something, they can be flexible, they have options. Just fixing depops when cap kicks in with 25-27, that just can't be it. It also brings the benefit that i feel it for you would be the most comfortable solution programming-wise. The tickers were some sort of pain in the ass, no doubt... i just want to point it that i myself have never argumented against them in forum, so noone can tell me i'm some sort of turncoat.

 

Gotta admit, i wanted to give you a more widespread outlook and various options, but the more i think about it, the more i see this as the most reasonable solution – most important, because it does not open new negativ sideshows and because it's a steady, longterm but effective/comprehensibel/controllable process. And no insta-change-hammer.

 

I highly recommend to go this route and i am sure it will get the full support of the community! I believe also the com has the patience to let your do your job there taking all the time you need, but it would just be good to know we will have this perspective at some point.

 

_______________________________________________

 

But as we're speaking lol, let's brainstorm a bit...

 

- Escapes: next to giving them a slight efficiency boost even with passive/security gameplans... why not giving them more importance by adding synergy effects? Lemme see, what could that be... put the success rate in relation to opponents escape skill – at least to a bit. That some straight up banger with high escapes only should not be able to easily stand up against Womba who easily goes with useless escapes (and has to due to max skill cap) is crystal-clear of couse. Also escapes could give a little boost to sub defense, sweeps, preventing dangerous transitions to dominate positions by the opponent. Such stuff.

 

- what are the options to the here explained change of the decrease system? 1. Status Quo 2. Active De-Training 3. A new, very limited relocation process once 4. A constant limited relocation option, purchaseable with VIP time, but with a time cap so that noone is able to just adjust to every new fight. I'm very happy with how you avoid pay-to-win situations so far btw. 5. Interesting new thought: a higher max cap 5b. (unrealistic and i guess not beneficial at all) a max cap split striking/groundgame 6. Comeback of tickers

[duphus]

NOTE: People see, this is a respectable way of voicing your opinion. Lets keep this civilized, NO arguing. If you have a disagreement with something, just explain why you disagree but keep the added posts with nothing to add at a minimum

 

Thanks

[Guest]

Not really a useful on my end but I really think we should jmhave the tickers back. I had a depop yesterday ( he is 30yrs old so it's expected) but I went from elite TDD to sen+ which was a big depop

[Mystery]

Hey Mike!

 

As mentioned in other threads, i'm pretty disappointed with the situation around the (connected) topics Escapes/Skill Decrease/Skill Cap. I know you're steadily working on the game and that often we just see stuff on the surface which very likely is just a small, fractional amount of the whole shebang. I mention that because i know posts like the following must be frustrating sometimes, so the last i want is to turn this into a general critic, but i feel something needs to be done (if not already in the making) and i try to make this as constructive as possible. You got us Tycoon nuts hooked and our full support anyways, keep that in mind alright lol....

 

I played the game most of the time as quite a can... at some point i decided to make a big roster cut to build up the next generation of fighters in a professional way – well tested fighters with ok learning speed and chins, great training (without beastfarm gym [cause i enjoy the business side of the game and would certainly miss it with a own small gym exclusive for my guys] but with a great ratio like ~30 fighters maybe). I invested a lot of Vip time in project research – i'm not saying this puts me in a position to demand something, not at all, i just want to point out that i put much blood, sweat and tears in it. Anyways... this generation reaches the Mid-20's now and gets close to the cap already. It was build shortly before skill-relocation and pre-cap.

 

In the relcation process, i have invested heavily in escapes because of my so lala groundgame... defense first, i thought i can work on their offense when finishing off the builds – at that point there was no cap. Soon i found out that successfull escapes need quite a busy/agressive groundgame... which gave ground specialists way too much space, so i kinda abandonned the escapes and went with a more passive game which got boosted by the possibility of ref standups.

Then the cap kicked in... and with it the rise of fighters like Womba. Still at this point you can call me a friend of this decision. Still it's the point where the escapes really began to hurt.

 

Well, i thought let's just fight trough it... the skills which don't get trained will decrease, all it will cost me is time but for that i get a well-balanced tycoon world with new perspectives for grapplers, MT specialists and so on. And i still believe in this and that you made theright step there in general. But...

 

BIG PROBLEM: Since month i do not touch escape training. I have 2-3 guys at cap... one young guy who is totally stuck cause i can't give him takedowns... he has escapes and a offensive groundgame, but he is done with f'n 25 or 26, without beastfarm training. Not escape decrease steadily, all the high end main skills depop! An old schmo grappler of mine has feeble-- escapes... i'm just training his main skills to avoid depop but nothign at all happens with those escapes!? Feeble--, who cares? Those are 3 possible primary pops!

 

Let's brainstorm a bit on possible solutions. You have pretty much explained why you do not want some sort of active de-training. Basically, the idea would be to just put a "-" in front of the session the fighters takes in the gym. I think it would be a functional system... no shortterm changes for fight preparation possible, but in the long run you can effectively fix a fighter build. Motivating for managers also. I totally get the realism argument of yours, so let's close the chapter.

 

So what would be the best compromise? I think it got pretty much obvious by my previous explaination. No active de-training, but the decrease of skills must primarily affect the skills that do not get trained, not the high end skills... them too but focus on the training-wise abandonned skills.

I think this is the way to go... a passive process which also brings the benefit of longterm motivation for managers – because their training still means something, they can be flexible, they have options. Just fixing depops when cap kicks in with 25-27, that just can't be it. It also brings the benefit that i feel it for you would be the most comfortable solution programming-wise. The tickers were some sort of pain in the ass, no doubt... i just want to point it that i myself have never argumented against them in forum, so noone can tell me i'm some sort of turncoat.

 

Gotta admit, i wanted to give you a more widespread outlook and various options, but the more i think about it, the more i see this as the most reasonable solution – most important, because it does not open new negativ sideshows and because it's a steady, longterm but effective/comprehensibel/controllable process. And no insta-change-hammer.

 

I highly recommend to go this route and i am sure it will get the full support of the community! I believe also the com has the patience to let your do your job there taking all the time you need, but it would just be good to know we will have this perspective at some point.

 

_______________________________________________

 

But as we're speaking lol, let's brainstorm a bit...

 

- Escapes: next to giving them a slight efficiency boost even with passive/security gameplans... why not giving them more importance by adding synergy effects? Lemme see, what could that be... put the success rate in relation to opponents escape skill – at least to a bit. That some straight up banger with high escapes only should not be able to easily stand up against Womba who easily goes with useless escapes (and has to due to max skill cap) is crystal-clear of couse. Also escapes could give a little boost to sub defense, sweeps, preventing dangerous transitions to dominate positions by the opponent. Such stuff.

 

- what are the options to the here explained change of the decrease system? 1. Status Quo 2. Active De-Training 3. A new, very limited relocation process once 4. A constant limited relocation option, purchaseable with VIP time, but with a time cap so that noone is able to just adjust to every new fight. I'm very happy with how you avoid pay-to-win situations so far btw. 5. Interesting new thought: a higher max cap 5b. (unrealistic and i guess not beneficial at all) a max cap split striking/groundgame 6. Comeback of tickers

 

Good post Roger. I agree something needs to be done about Escapes.

 

I am not sure if relocation could work but I was thinking maybe if relocation of skills could only be possible say once per in-game year(or every 90 days or something like that) and at a cost of say 30 VIP days, and the relocation would work like it did before, which I believe was like 75% of the skills you took out of your skills could be added into others, so that would make relocation fair and not be abused. Then it could be an interesting feature.

 

I am curious how hard that would be to program though.

[verbalkint]

It's one way to go, a drastic one and a way i really would prefer to avoid - while in my situation it is maybe the easiest solution, but it would be way more satisfying if we get the "non-trained skills depop" method. I think the longterm way is the healthiest.

It could be very linear, like... escapes=skill which hasn't been trained the longest - max cap reached and train punches, gain to punches gets susbtracted from escapes 1:1. Or, with some sort of malus system like you have mentioned in relation to relocation.

[Timmy]

Nice post. We're good mates, but I'm probably going to annoy you now by disagreeing with some of your opinnions.

 

I agree there's a little problem with skill maintainence.. Like you said, you can't get an unwanted (relatively low) skill to depop and it's frustrating because there's never the same problem with the (relatively high) skills that you want to keep. However, I think the current maintainence regime is the best ever and most realistic. It seems right to me this way on the grounds of realism - Elite skills should be harder to maintain.

 

The problem originates from the skills reset when escapes was introduced. Many managers (quite reasonably) gave strikers escapes. It's since turned out that most believe escapes aren't much use. I don't have much experience in using them but I expect that (going by the way Mike has programmed everything else) with some other ground skills and correct slider settings they probably do work. The problem is probably that people are expecting strikers to escape from opponents who totally dominate them in ground skills, or a "magic bullet" that means escapes will happen more often than real MMA fights. This is all realistic, boxers or MT do not train escapes - If there is a skill in escaping, it will come from ground sparring, related Wrest/JJ skills and fight experience.

 

Still, given the history of how all this came about, I don't envy the people who have escapes. What can be done? I don't like the idea of unrealistic active depops. I don't like another one-off reset, periodic resets, or pay VIP resets (though I've already thought of a number of ways to use any of these for advantage if they should ever happen). To be honest, I can think of ways to abuse over a career the "things that aren't trained depop first" method you advocate.

As I don't share your misfortune, it's hard to agree that fixing this problem is worth the disruption and consequences of such a huge change. And escapes aren't the only thing that has been unfortunate for some managers. I wasted probably 100 VIP days or something sacking guys after the reset because of some other stupid things I experimented with when we got to re-allocate skills.

 

I wouldn't have posted at all if I didn't have a different idea, so here it is.......

 

What if there were different kinds of gym with the pops tweaked for each? General/Combined - just like status quo. Ground - Ground skills are maintained more easily but striking skills decline faster. Strike - Strike skills maintained more, but ground skills decline faster.

The details could be done in a way that allows a fair way for managers to send a fighter somewhere for six months and fix a problem like your escapes, or any other. It should mean, using escapes example, that you could send guys to a strike gym and ground skills will diminish just fast enough, and just generally enough (a little less emphasis on higher-trained ground skills declining faster I mean by "generally"), that an annoying 60 in escapes can be got rid of in 6 months. The price would be a general decline in other ground skills, but you could then train the ones you want back up. There'd also be a general speed benefit to your strike training, but not too much of course.

It's a solution that is open to anyone with any problem so it can solve escapes without leading to a ton of "You did escapes, now what about my problem? demands". Personally, I would probably use it to solve some issues with tdd/TD and elbows/knees. It can't be too generous though, to just allow "build changes" just because someone feels like it and with no cost wouldn't be good.

I guess this could be described as a sort of "watered-down" active depops method, but at least it can be "explained" in terms of realism by the effect of a specialist gym on fighter style.

[Guest]

I think the addition of the extra secondary skills was a great idea. Unfortunately, like any big change, it had a big impact on a generation of fighters because none of us really knew how things were going to turn out. Those who guessed correctly and reallocated in the right places turned out much better than those who didn't. I had a couple of fighters crippled because I guessed wrong.

 

Going back and fixing our errors through reallocation is definitely NOT what I want to see. We should have to live with the choices that we made, good, bad, lucky, or unlucky. I am even more strongly against using VIP time to reallocate. We don't need more ways for people to buy better fighters. Spending VIP days should be for stuff like avatars that don't impact game play.

 

With all of that being said, I think the way guys de-pop might be worth looking at. I think elite skills should de-pop quickly. It is hard to maintain elite skills without training. THe higher a skill is, the harder it should be to maintain. However, there should be a limit as to how far you can de-pop as well. Maybe 20-30 points. If a guy learns a skill up to an elite level, he will always have a strong foundation in that skill, even if his skills get rusty.

[topologies]

As much as I would like to agree with Roger I think this is like the new influx of the new generation of fighters in the tycoon world BUT that doesn't mean escapes doesn't need tweaking. The success rate in the top tier fights is just too low.

[verbalkint]

I think i get a bit misunderstood, guys. I think escapes are one of the symptoms. The problem for me is: well trained projects are DONE with 25-26. Cap is reached, that is it... if you still want to do adjustments, additional training lets your high end skills depop a bit, but there is no room for adjustments. We all end up training punch/kick/sd/clinch here and there, but basically the whole training is useless. That's were my idea kicks in... the +training you recieve gets substracted from the skill which your guy did not train for the longest period. I'm quite sure this was Mike's first basic idea also. This is a slow, organic process. 1:1 or with a malus, no prob also. But ther has got to be some sort of perspective, it's so frustrating without any.

 

I'm am NOT asking for relocation at all. I just wanted to theoretically go trough all options i see as service lol, the brainstorming part is not what i have in mind as solution. I think the basic problem is undeniable... and i gotta admit lol, i am a bit in disbelief that the com does not speak with one voice there lol because it is such an obvious problem.

[verbalkint]

I'm against relocation of escapes or a big boost of their efficiency... cause then the guys who smelled it pre-relocation or who build all their post-relocation projects without escapes are fucked. Escapes are just MY personal symtom. And that's the core of my critic and it is just surreal that i seem to be fighting a lost looking at the calm community cause... if now clinch gets boosted like, the way JLP is pushing for atm - if MT clinchers end up being pretty solid (which would be good, i mean variety was the big pro for the cap... and again, i fully support it): what about your projects close to cap without knees/elbows (which is at the moment actually not the dumbest idea with the strong db)? After half of their career, the guys are just done, training gets irrelevant and really demotivating. Every new engine change, the ones for the better approved by a big majority, possibly affect whole generations of fighters permanently. I widnessed many changes in my Tycoon days, nearly all of them i fully supported but they meant little drawbacks for me sometimes, especially trainign speed stuff. But i always had the option to develope my guys in a different direction again and well, compensate.

[Mentor]

I think i get a bit misunderstood, guys. I think escapes are one of the symptoms. The problem for me is: well trained projects are DONE with 25-26. Cap is reached, that is it... if you still want to do adjustments, additional training lets your high end skills depop a bit, but there is no room for adjustments. We all end up training punch/kick/sd/clinch here and there, but basically the whole training is useless. That's were my idea kicks in... the +training you recieve gets substracted from the skill which your guy did not train for the longest period. I'm quite sure this was Mike's first basic idea also. This is a slow, organic process. 1:1 or with a malus, no prob also. But ther has got to be some sort of perspective, it's so frustrating without any.

 

I'm am NOT asking for relocation at all. I just wanted to theoretically go trough all options i see as service lol, the brainstorming part is not what i have in mind as solution. I think the basic problem is undeniable... and i gotta admit lol, i am a bit in disbelief that the com does not speak with one voice there lol because it is such an obvious problem.

 

Something needs to be done for sure. One suggestion was that Primaries training should only influence the primary and "maintain" (to an extent) the secondary skills related to it. If we do that though, secondary training wont influence primary skills increases. This minor change will help people which end up having woeful Elbows/Knees or other skills simply because they were sparing. This wont totally solve any of the issues you are pointing out, however it will slow down training cap to later ages and will also mean that maintaining skills will be slightly better as well due to Primary sparring will influence secondary maintenance.

 

As for the escapes issue, i think it is not that difficult to sort that out. A small bump on their effectiveness wont cause a mass protest i think. The same can be done with the clinch game which seems to be the weakest of all Primary skills. To be honest though, Muay Thai has the stand up as well with Kicks. In real life clinch fighters are not particularly great in finishing fights in the clinch. They are at best good at control against a weak clinch fighter and maybe at takedowns from the clinch, however how many times do we see finishes from the clinch? Probably less than we get in MMA Tycoon to be honest.

[topologies]

 

Something needs to be done for sure. One suggestion was that Primaries training should only influence the primary and "maintain" (to an extent) the secondary skills related to it. If we do that though, secondary training wont influence primary skills increases. This minor change will help people which end up having woeful Elbows/Knees or other skills simply because they were sparing. This wont totally solve any of the issues you are pointing out, however it will slow down training cap to later ages and will also mean that maintaining skills will be slightly better as well due to Primary sparring will influence secondary maintenance.

 

As for the escapes issue, i think it is not that difficult to sort that out. A small bump on their effectiveness wont cause a mass protest i think. The same can be done with the clinch game which seems to be the weakest of all Primary skills. To be honest though, Muay Thai has the stand up as well with Kicks. In real life clinch fighters are not particularly great in finishing fights in the clinch. They are at best good at control against a weak clinch fighter and maybe at takedowns from the clinch, however how many times do we see finishes from the clinch? Probably less than we get in MMA Tycoon to be honest.

Clinch finishes are rare but knees and elbows are devastating and they can lead to finishes.

[Guest]

I want to say sth about the skill gab.

Why not let the skills go beyond 150 limit?

[topologies]

I want to say sth about the skill gab.

Why not let the skills go beyond 150 limit?

They don't have a limit. Pops just stop at elite.

[Guest]

That's why I don't train escapes, f*ck them.

[Wolf]

And here i was thinking escapes worked everytime it says standup

[TheDude]

They don't have a limit. Pops just stop at elite.

Does it matter? I mean is a 160 skill bettter than a 150

[EzekelRAGE]

In a thread about this a few months ago I posted this to help with ideas to the decreasing of the unneeded skills.

http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/985/a4c5.jpg

 

Mike was against it, forgot the reason. Think he just didnt like it. He was maybe ok with stopping certain gains from sparring though.

Maybe the above concept or something like that can be implemented to stop training from the get go. If I plan my fighter to be a ground

guy and have elbows/knees checked while training, then he wouldnt get secondary gains when I spar or train clinch. Although this wouldnt

help the current crop of fighters at peak that much. It would help the younger guys who are still training. So the new box would looks something

like this:

http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/ww57/EzekelRAGEpb/special.png

[RodrigoMachado]

In a thread about this a few months ago I posted this to help with ideas to the decreasing of the unneeded skills.

http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/985/a4c5.jpg

 

Mike was against it, forgot the reason. Think he just didnt like it. He was maybe ok with stopping certain gains from sparring though.

Maybe the above concept or something like that can be implemented to stop training from the get go. If I plan my fighter to be a ground

guy and have elbows/knees checked while training, then he wouldnt get secondary gains when I spar or train clinch. Although this wouldnt

help the current crop of fighters at peak that much. It would help the younger guys who are still training. So the new box would looks something

like this:

http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/ww57/EzekelRAGEpb/special.png

 

 

 

This is the best idea i've read in a LONG time. I have a fighter in a skill cap in a long time, and he has a lot of skills he doesn't use and that don't decline. I would LOVE to get rid of those skills.

[minark]

In a thread about this a few months ago I posted this to help with ideas to the decreasing of the unneeded skills.

http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/985/a4c5.jpg

 

 

 

Mike was against it, forgot the reason. Think he just didnt like it. He was maybe ok with stopping certain gains from sparring though.

Maybe the above concept or something like that can be implemented to stop training from the get go. If I plan my fighter to be a ground

guy and have elbows/knees checked while training, then he wouldnt get secondary gains when I spar or train clinch. Although this wouldnt

help the current crop of fighters at peak that much. It would help the younger guys who are still training. So the new box would looks something

like this:

 

 

 

 

 

Why couldn't we use this idea but add a minimum decrease for one skill. Just a rough idea but let's say a ticked skill can only drop 50% of its current level.

 

So I have 110 skill points in escapes and found out how useless they are. So I tick the box for escapes and now it will slowly decline to 55 over the course of time. And while its declining other untrained skills decline also, but we at least free up some skill cap to work on useful skills.

 

In all honesty, the best idea would be to figure out a way to make escapes, knees and elbows useful but since that doesn't seem to be on the horizon something like this would at least be a compromise.