Training changes general discussion

[KellyM5]

Just to be clear, I'm not complaining here I'm just stating how I feel about it the changes personally. I doubt I will leave the game over this, it just takes a little bit of the fun out for me. And thank you Mike for hearing me out.

[Guest]

It just sucks becouse ive always rolled with the punches and everytime the changes you have made have turned out to be good once. But i honestly cant see how this change is good it just means more work and for nothing. If you had made it harder to go up in skill or made it so a fighter only can have x amount of points i would not have said anything. But now when the fighters decrease in skill and especially seeing how fast they do it i just cant find the energy to do anything about it. And im probably not gonna leave since i love this game and ive been doing so for over 2 years so i will probably just cut my fighters and focus on the business side of the game instead.

[Guest]

I think a bigger issue for the game long term is the slowing of skill gains at the lower levels. In our "Bic Lighter" ie disposible society people, especially those people who are like play MMO's desire/expect instant gratification. This game (especially at first) was already too slowly paced for some potential players. A 19 year old I picked up only gained 6 points training 1-1 with a double elite coach, and I was told by his previous manager he was a decent learner. I cant imagine how long some poor new guy training his 25 year old in a 6 man class has to wait to see any noticible improvement.

[Guest]

The training seems to be very tedious and takes a lot of time. Numbers inside of the tickers bars for how many sessions it will be before it starts to drop is a good idea. That will allow us to see further into the future than we currently are able. That is a very refreshing idea.

 

I've tried to use the Assistant and the Tickers page in coordination when setting schedules. It's very frustrating.

 

A supplement schedule would be nice. Once again accomodating us further into the future.

[Stu_Pidasol]

Well for me at least its way to much work to just maintain the skills you have and i dont want to let my guys decrease just so i can maintain them it takes away a lot of the fun and the hard work i put in to them. If i work i want to move forward not just stay at the same level so it takes away a lot of the fun for me and it takes up way to much time. I dont want to argue with you anymore since you probably wont change it anyway and i know that you have better things to do so i will leave it here.

 

You do realise that if you de-pop in a physical that the green ticker gets longer? So you take a couple hits on your phycials for the sake of keeping other things high, or you take a hit on some secondaries to keep your physicals high.. You still get a choice. This change is about not playing this game in "god mode" which where the game was headed, if changes like this weren't made.

[Stu_Pidasol]

This change, and the direction that things are now going, are going to be the death of this game. People are already leaving in droves, myself included, and I don't think that Mike is listening to any of our concerns. The number of active managers has dropped by over 2000 since I began playing, and lately there have been more and more long time managers calling it quits, how much worse is that going to have to get? One thing that I mentioned is that when you no longer need to have elite coaches to get the best training, the amount of money in the game, which people already bitch about, is going to increase tremendously. Mike's solution to this, one of them at least, is to introduce Houses into the game. I for one find this to be completely absurd. This game is still called MMA Tycoon right? Changing the biggest money sink in the game from training, to owning real estate just makes no sense to me at all. In my opinion the training side of this game, which is one of the biggest facets of the game is now ruined, and it completely removes any incentive that there would have been to earn money with the tycoon side of the game. When you don't need an elite coach, or even a personal coach, and $600/wk in a gym with 3-5 fighters per session gets you maximum training, what point is there in dumping money into training? It's the training and fighting aspect of the game that got me hooked, the business part was only ever to earn money to fund training. And with this change, and the ones to come I think you have effectively killed both sides of this game.

 

1v1 training with an Elite coach is still the best you can get. I know I certainly won't be putting any of my fighters into a public gym to train in classes of 3-5 which even the wiki states if you have read it is not as effective as an Elite coach. I think you are confusing that for lower skilled fighters (and sparring only requires a partner 20% better) don't need elite coaches to get maximum gain, which while is great news it really isn't going to change anything with gym set ups like its intended too, as people will still want Elite coaches regardless because they either don't understand the changes or managers won't be creating gyms as they aren't a buisness where you will earn stacks of money.

[Guest]

Has anyone had a negative pop yet? I'm really thinking all these complaints are a bit premature.

 

Edit: If for instance you had a neg pop in physicals, what are your physicals at? Time since sparring/CT session?

 

yep! My Project here http://www.mmatycoon.com/fighterprofilemanager.php?FID=136257

 

From exceptional MT down to Wonderful. It sucks.. He was 18 when his mt was degraded..

[MMATycoon]

yep! My Project here http://www.mmatycoon.com/fighterprofilemanager.php?FID=136257

 

From exceptional MT down to Wonderful. It sucks.. He was 18 when his mt was degraded..

I have no idea how you managed that. His triggers are all nearly full.

 

edit, ah I see... you're training 11 defensive grappling and 1 punch technique. Come on man... if you fail to even remotely adapt, it's not a fault in the game that you had a negative pop. There was absolutely no reason for it other than stubbornness.

[Guest]

I have no idea how you managed that. His triggers are all nearly full.

 

edit, ah I see... you're training 11 defensive grappling and 1 punch technique. Come on man... if you fail to even remotely adapt, it's not a fault in the game that you had a negative pop. There was absolutely no reason for it other than stubbornness.

 

What`s wrong with my post Sir? I just answered his question.

[PBR]

What`s wrong with my post Sir? I just answered his question.

mike is simply showing you why you declined in MT not implying anything is wrong

[Guest]

mike is simply showing you why you declined in MT not implying anything is wrong

 

Yeah I know why. I didnt asked that question though. Again, I just answered ringfinger`s question.

[Guest]

As I create new fighters and I try to set my aptitudes I try to think about how I intend for my fighter to ultimately look and how I intend for my training schedule to ultimately look. So for instance, let's say that for my specific fighters build and his relevant skills I believe that I'll want to do no more than 3 cardio sessions per week. So I'll try to judge how much aptitude I'll need to give him in cardio so that he'll be able to reach my desired level and also maintain it with only 3 cardio sessions per week. ---- Ex - So if I'm shooting for Exceptional cardio with only 3 sessions per week of cardio then I very well may need to give him 3 points of aptitude to achieve it.

 

We all want our fighters to have a set schedule that we dont have to change daily. So the idea I believe is to look at our aptitudes. Set our schedules with a mixture of training types. Then allow our fighters skills to flow naturally into that training schedule.

 

If you say "Fuck it" and set your training schedule to train CT 3 times a week then your fighters physicals will automatically fall in line with your aptitude that you've selected. If you selected a higher physical aptitude, then 3 CT classes a week will settle out at a higher physical level.

 

The same will go for a fighter that chooses to train CT's 4 times a week vs a fighter that chooses to train only 3 CT's a week. If the aptitudes are the same for both fighters then the fighter training CT's 4 times a week will rightfully maintain a higher level of physicals. In the end, it's all a balancing act. But Mike said it just a few post ago when he referred to training schedules. We just need to get it into our heads that we need to set a training schedule that mimics our fighters aptitudes. That's how we'll maximize our fighters in potential in the future. Not by class size or training quality necassarily. Whoever can set up the most efficient training routine in coordination with our fighters aptitudes.

[Guest]

This change, and the direction that things are now going, are going to be the death of this game. People are already leaving in droves, myself included, and I don't think that Mike is listening to any of our concerns. The number of active managers has dropped by over 2000 since I began playing, and lately there have been more and more long time managers calling it quits, how much worse is that going to have to get? One thing that I mentioned is that when you no longer need to have elite coaches to get the best training, the amount of money in the game, which people already bitch about, is going to increase tremendously. Mike's solution to this, one of them at least, is to introduce Houses into the game. I for one find this to be completely absurd. This game is still called MMA Tycoon right? Changing the biggest money sink in the game from training, to owning real estate just makes no sense to me at all. In my opinion the training side of this game, which is one of the biggest facets of the game is now ruined, and it completely removes any incentive that there would have been to earn money with the tycoon side of the game. When you don't need an elite coach, or even a personal coach, and $600/wk in a gym with 3-5 fighters per session gets you maximum training, what point is there in dumping money into training? It's the training and fighting aspect of the game that got me hooked, the business part was only ever to earn money to fund training. And with this change, and the ones to come I think you have effectively killed both sides of this game.

 

You yourself point out that the number of players was dropping constantly. One would think that would point towards a change being needed right?

 

1v1 training with an Elite coach is still the best you can get. I know I certainly won't be putting any of my fighters into a public gym to train in classes of 3-5 which even the wiki states if you have read it is not as effective as an Elite coach. I think you are confusing that for lower skilled fighters (and sparring only requires a partner 20% better) don't need elite coaches to get maximum gain, which while is great news it really isn't going to change anything with gym set ups like its intended too, as people will still want Elite coaches regardless because they either don't understand the changes or managers won't be creating gyms as they aren't a buisness where you will earn stacks of money.

 

Yea, 1 on 1 isn't as good anymore but it's still the best training available so the money sink is there just like before.

[MMATycoon]

Yeah I know why. I didnt asked that question though. Again, I just answered ringfinger`s question.

Given that you have given a +1 to nearly every negative post about the training changes, I wanted to see why you were struggling so much with the concept to see if I could help you. Having seen what you're actually doing, I posted a comment to illustrate to other people that there really is no need for you to have had a negative pop at all, so they don't unnecessarily worry about the changes.

 

Also, given that you're almost purposefully trying not to adapt, I would really appreciate if you would stop rating posts on the subject either way.

[Guest]

Ok...

[PBR]

You have to do it daily because every fighter is different. They don't all train, rest and fight on the same days. If all my fighters fought at the same time and I could just log in and set the schedules and be on my way then sure that would be fine, but every fighter is different and every fighter needs different things maintained at different times. Forcing you to check it more often then you should need.

For some fighters yes they're easy to maintain, but for the fighter below for example, it's not quite that simple. If I knew exactly when these stats were going to start declining then yeah I could set my schedule accordingly, but I don't. Over time I will get a better feel for it, but you shouldn't have too, it should be as easy as possible.

 

http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/7192/unled1jfu.jpg

 

EDIT: About the supp schedule, it's not about needing them for the tickers. But if I am training strength then I want to be on a strength supplement to get the most out of that session. I only need to train it for 1 session to reset the tickers and then I need to switch it back. If I could set that ahead of time it'd be much simpler.

 

dang a gm script already - lol - i agree on supp thing - maybe a way to combine where two can be taken per day or just more than one a session

[jory]

With changes in real life I'm a bit worried about the time I'll need to micromanage my training. Luckily, I'm still a ways off from having to deal too much deterioration aside from the physical side which is easily stopped with circuits(something I hope stays). I guess I'll find out when I have to manage 15 fighters tickers at high skill levels if it's too much but for now nothing has changed. I'm loving the balancing of class sizes related to training as well as the energy adjustments so people can train more often(at least I think?).

 

I share the concern over flip flopping the learning rate so that it's slower at the start. I know the new system evens out in the end but the structure begs for even more patience in an already slow-paced game for those starting new fighters. We should be encouraging quick learning at the start so people can get competitive earlier.

[Guest]

I share the concern over flip flopping the learning rate so that it's slower at the start. I know the new system evens out in the end but the structure begs for even more patience in an already slow-paced game for those starting new fighters. We should be encouraging quick learning at the start so people can get competitive earlier.

I believe that the reason for skills not being as fast in the beginning is so that people will be more inclined to create more balanced fighters. Instead of 110 and 1's down the board.

 

Hopefully it's balanced out so that the best learning rate is around Feeble(4) and above. That would drive people to create fighters aside from 1's and 110's.

[Stu_Pidasol]

I believe that the reason for skills not being as fast in the beginning is so that people will be more inclined to create more balanced fighters. Instead of 110 and 1's down the board.

 

Hopefully it's balanced out so that the best learning rate is around Feeble(4) and above. That would drive people to create fighters aside from 1's and 110's.

 

I highly doubt that not using the min/max theory would be any more beneficial to your fighters. It still takes the same time to get from useless to exceptional. So instead in the case of primaries having 4 skills that still need to battle a little the slower patch to get to exceptional you only have 3..

[Guest]

If I knew exactly when these stats were going to start declining then yeah I could set my schedule accordingly, but I don't. Over time I will get a better feel for it, but you shouldn't have too, it should be as easy as possible.

 

 

I completely disagree with this.

A topic I've brought up several times on this board concerning this game is how people want things to be handed to them. Being good means putting in work. Doing the research (or waiting until someone else does the work and gives you a greasemonkey script or spreadsheet) to find out how tickers increase and decrease and how all the training affects them is part of the job if you want to get the best training.

A person SHOULD have to put in a lot of work to be the best.

 

As far as supplement scheduling is concerned, anyone with very high strength only needs a Circuit Training session to completely reset it. However, I understand there are people whose strength is less than elite (for some reason) and they may need a strength session to fully reset that skill, but then you have to take into account that MMATycoon is one of those games whose "skill" requires you to log in frequently. I know there's a term for these types of games but I forget what it is. To be good at MMAT or any of the hundreds of other games similar to it, you have to log in often. MMAT is actually MUCH less of a time hog than a lot of them, even with the new changes that require training maintenance. I used to play others like this and they would require a couple hours a day every day to be the most successful. I can tell stories about Tribal Wars that are completely absurd (and kind of sad).

All of that is to say I'm not opposed to supplement scheduling, but I don't think it's necessary.

 

Im biased cuz i have a guy or 3 wit sensational or elite in all physicals. But yea i think its fair. I mean if they used up all that time on phys, then something else is lacking. And just cuz they have those phys doesnt mean they are unbeatable. Was it realistic? I guess not. Fun? Yes . I just wish I wouldnt have wasted all that time on cts wit some of my guys now .

 

I disagree on the cap that physicals are taking. In real life, great fighters are incredible in all physical areas while still being fantastic technically, too. I don't know why some people think this isn't true or that athleticism and technical ability exist on some sort of teeter totter. I think part of it is due to how most people only watch professional sports so their view of "normal" is skewed. People can forget that all good fighters are well-rounded physically when every fighter they see is like that. Also, I think the less experience someone has with competitive sports, the less aware they are of how physically developed most athletes/fighters are. It is VERY realistic to have very high skills in all physicals.

This subject also ties in to how I disagree on the physical attributes weighing against each other. This makes no sense at all and has absolutely no real-life evidence. For instance, any remotely competitive bodybuilder is going to be very flexible. However, in this game, being strong hurts your flexibility. I have no idea what logic was used to create that system.

 

And not to pick to flexibility too much, but I honestly don't even know why it's a trainaible physical skill. I mean, I do, but having to sacrifice a training slot so that you don't lose your flexibility is silly. Anyone in real life just stretches before or after a training session. Skipping training to stretch is ridiculous. I understand it shouldn't just be assumed that every fighter is flexible, but I think the current method of training flexibility (or losing it) should be reassessed considering the ticker introduction.

 

Mike, is there talk of letting us see our fighter's injury history since now it relates to their training? Or, are the amount of injuries a fighter takes going to be altered at all?

I hope all my criticism in this post doesn't make me seem like I don't enjoy or appreciate this game. I really do.

[Guest]

My thoughts are very similar to Crisse's. I fully understand and appreciate all the hard work put into these changes, I realize that they have been implemented with the best intentions.

 

From my subjective point of view though they are not as good with the main reason of it being the increased amount of time needed to maintain the skills. Earlier I was very excited when opening TA page after every session. I just had 2 windows opened - TA and Possessions. Now it's a whole different story, I have to open and follow 4 pages simultaneously - TA (obvious reason), Possessions (to change supps if needed), Skill Maintenance (to find out that some tickers have grown wayyy too much) and Gym page (to make proper training changes because of unexpected rise in some tickers). Earlier it was exciting to look at TA page to find out the popsup, now I simply cannot change my mindset and I don't give a damn about them, fully focusing on the tickers running like crazy. I'm not saying that it is impossible to create a training schedule that would make your fighters safe in terms of skill maintenance because it surely is. It's rather a matter of approach - maintaining skills (even if it's only 40% of your schedule) is far less exciting than increasing skills.

 

I always thought that I would be playing this game no matter how much spare time I have left (work, family) but now for the first time since I joined in 09, I really think I can't make it - I can't follow all the tickers of my 15 fighters, implement all the training changes when needed and follow all what's going on in the game with the amount of spare time I have. I've read about specific training for Physicals - I don't know what that would mean for CT but my only hope is that CT's effect on Physicals won't be decreased - if it will be decreased then it's gonna be too much for me since maintaining high Physicals will be nearly impossible.

 

Obviously, in a few months we will find out if these changed were good or not. In my younger days I was a hardcore player and loved complex games like, I don't know, Europa Universalis, Civ, Championship Manager, Silent Hunter or even Ogame. But I no longer have so much spare time - that's why making this game even deeper does not make me happy because it requires more time from me.

[Guest]

i like the changes. i feel like hopefully my fighters can stand a chance, but really, i dont see much of a difference.

slight stat drop, just means il have to train skills that are gunna drop soon, that takes away from training what i wanna train but not by much. also i can start my own gym now.

[Goatacre]

Mostly physicals yeah but i think the primaries and secondaries tick to fast to.

 

You're aware that if the green bar extends right to the end then no matter how far along the orange bar rises, you can't lose any skill in that area, right? Therefore you can probably ignore a decent number of the bars altogether (unless you have the biggest beast in the MMATycoon world!).

[jory]

I disagree on the cap that physicals are taking. In real life, great fighters are incredible in all physical areas while still being fantastic technically, too. I don't know why some people think this isn't true or that athleticism and technical ability exist on some sort of teeter totter. I think part of it is due to how most people only watch professional sports so their view of "normal" is skewed. People can forget that all good fighters are well-rounded physically when every fighter they see is like that. Also, I think the less experience someone has with competitive sports, the less aware they are of how physically developed most athletes/fighters are. It is VERY realistic to have very high skills in all physicals.

This subject also ties in to how I disagree on the physical attributes weighing against each other. This makes no sense at all and has absolutely no real-life evidence. For instance, any remotely competitive bodybuilder is going to be very flexible. However, in this game, being strong hurts your flexibility. I have no idea what logic was used to create that system.

 

And not to pick to flexibility too much, but I honestly don't even know why it's a trainaible physical skill. I mean, I do, but having to sacrifice a training slot so that you don't lose your flexibility is silly. Anyone in real life just stretches before or after a training session. Skipping training to stretch is ridiculous. I understand it shouldn't just be assumed that every fighter is flexible, but I think the current method of training flexibility (or losing it) should be reassessed considering the ticker introduction.

 

In terms of your first point about physicals, Mike posted somewhere in the mass of training change posts that the problem is more how we've come to interpret the varying levels in relation to physicals. Basically the elite strength should be heavyweight power lifter strength not just MMA strong and so on. So lower tiers of physicals were supposed to represent the high echelon MMA athlete while people could push for elite if they wanted some kind of unique advantage at the expense of something like cardio.

 

I can't speak for Mike about things like flexibility but I'd imagine it's just a part of the game to add depth and really there are still varying levels of flexibility. It's not just stretching before your work outs but being able to do things with your hips whether you can pull your leg over for rubber guard or use your leg as an extra limb for a rear naked choke like BJ or even lift your legs higher for a knee or head kick. I agree it doesn't translate the same way as the other attributes but it's still a relevant skill to have.

[MMATycoon]

@Simco and jorysaywut, yes it depends how you look these things. Example: I can put my leg behind my head. I would personally class that as wonderful(ish). Maybe you'd class that as elite simco... I dunno. I know though that I'm not as flexibile as someone like BJ Penn who can do that standing up. I just do not believe that power lifters are capable of doing that.

 

elite cardio is a marathon runnner.

elite strength is a power lifter.

elite flexibility is putting your head up your own... etc

 

We've just got way ahead of all that without any limitations for 2 1/2 years, so I appreciate that people have got used to all these superman builds and it will take a bit of adjustment to accept a more realistic philosophy.