Training changes general discussion

[Guest]

I did comprehend that and my whole point was that a pure boxer would not have any trouble with maintenance at all so he could very easily pick up a second "base", depending on learning and age obviously.

[j666]

I agree with most of what you are saying, i also have a full time job, 2 kids, a house and a yard, so i hear ya.

 

But, setting training in the game has for me moved a bit away from being fun, to becoming a bit of a chore.

I normally set training on Sunday and monitor it throughout the week.

Now quite a lot of planning has to be made prior to setting training, can't just throw them quickly into some sessions , knowing they'd be ok, maybe not gaining exactly where you want them to gain, but gaining somewhere.

Now doing that can have drastic negative consequences in the form of de-popping, hence you HAVE TO make time to PLAN next weeks training,, and even if you do, you still NEED TO manage it throughout the week to make sure shit don't happen etc...

 

That is something i don't really like,, I spend a LOT of time on Tycoon because i love this game, but i do it because i want to do it.

When i had other shit to do, i could set the training in a few minutes and not worry about it,, now that is not possible, without likely negative consequences..

 

I both like and hate these changes, but they ARE changing this game from being a game you could succeed in even if you didn't spend all that much time on it, into a game where you HAVE TO spend a lot of time on it, to have any chance in succeeding in becoming a top dog.

I do think the tickers are running too fast, but hey,, maybe we could get a new Supp to counter that??

 

Maybe this will get much better somehow when doctors, housing, private planes etc.. are available,, and lets not forget,, those brilliant additions are coming.

 

I still love this game as a whole after the training changes and will continue my quest of becoming the best, but i do think it was a little bit more more fun before than it is after,, well, just as much fun actually, just became a bit more tedious in one area.

to some people, mowing the lawn is a chore. i actually enjoy it.

 

after i made my post, i thought about how much time i spent staring at my training assistant (lol), how much time i would spend in the forum (most of it unnecessary btw) and how often, in general, i was logged into the site...it was A LOT! if i just make better use of that time, it seemedless of a chore and more like fun. i too set my training on sunday and just monitor...that's basically atuo-pilot BUT...i would STILL log in everyday and check this out and check that out and spend an unnecessary amount of time on the site, basically doing nothing lol.

 

i don't own an org and i can imagine that it must be taxing on them anyways...but maybe we can finally get some (much needed) contraction and have some of these orgs merge, where the 2 owners (plus any other staff) can have a bit more free time since they can split the workload. a lot already do this but i know quite a few that don't.

 

also, the amount of time it takes solely depends on what exactly you are trying to achieve with your fighter. wanna do it the old way (sensx4)? it'll cost ya some time, as it should since the majority (of the forum anyway) had a MAJOR problem with the thought of elitex4 and sensx4 fighters. wanna do it the new way? it won't take that long to set training or maintenance.

 

it doesn't take me very long but i have a lot of guys in maintenance mode cuz they're old. i already know their skills and what they can do so i don't even need to look at the training assistant when i set their training for the day/week. i check the training assistant for my youngsters and if one of the old dogs pops in something, i'll see it there...but they got plenty of skills so it's not a huge issue for me.

 

again, i'm not trying to say "it's so easy, even a caveman can do it." and i'm not trying to bust anyone's balls. i just don't want people to get the idea that everything is fucked and they should quit while they're ahead. there are some of us that aren't having any issues with any of this and aren't spending that much more time than we were before. for every person that dislikes it, there's one that likes it.

 

Haha J666, I do agree with most of your points there. I just worry about the unintended economic impact of these changes. To maintain, why use a private gym? Just go to some $300 bullshit gym and rotate coaches/sparring. There goes the biggest money sink in the game.

well, to be honest, WITH that money sink, the economy was fucked. at TFP, we are still keeping our gyms. i have no plans of going back to public gyms when private gyms are still the best. 1 on 1 is still the best option...and maintenance doesn't have to be maintaining an exceptional rating across the board.

 

maintenance can also be letting:

 

boxing: exceptional

muay thai: exceptional

wrestling: exceptional

bjj: remarkable

 

fall to:

 

boxing: exceptional

muay thai: exceptional

wrestling: remarkable

bjj: superb

 

or

 

boxing: sensational

muay thai: wonderful

wrestling: superb

bjj: superb

 

to some that see that last one, it's not a good fighter, which makes me lol. that is a seriously good fighter. it's about figuring out what you want your fighter to be and getting him there. even my projects were made like, "he's gonna be a ground guy or he's gonna be a striker", and in the beginning, i had no choice lol. there was no private gyms or elite sparring partners around. maybe i'm the only idiot that still made fighters that way but maybe i ain't. all my guys have back stories, personas and styles. the fact that they became wond/excep in everything (slight exagg but u know what i mean), was a by product of an easy system...but i always wanted my guys to fight a certain way and for the most part, they do.

 

private gyms are still the shit. maintenance doesn't have to be all bad (unless your a progression/regression only type).

 

jesus...i need to stop typing lol.

[Guest]

I pretty much agree with Jason. I spend so much time on here, I sometimes check assistant four times a day in between the am and pm sessions, for what reason? None.

 

I've looked at the tickers page once since it was implemented, yes my fighters are young and not that highly skilled but I figure I'll just train how I want the fighter to be and if something falls by the wayside I'll see it on tycoon assistant and address it then, until then I'm training my fighters on my clock, not on some coloured bars!

 

Once my fighters are where i want them in their main skills then I'll round them out (starting to do so now with a couple) I'm not the best manager, I don't win all by fights (although I accept them all) but I'm smart enough to know that letting the decreases get to you is stupid, it's not like they are dropping from exceptional to proficient over night, the ground you lose is easy to make up if you really want to.

[Guest]

I did comprehend that and my whole point was that a pure boxer would not have any trouble with maintenance at all so he could very easily pick up a second "base", depending on learning and age obviously.

You know better than me.

[Blindsided]

You know better than me.

 

 

letsgoHOKIES - Ron Bergundy - 57554 - Join Date 2011-07-05

 

Deamus - Richard Davenport - 10647 - Join Date 2009-09-07

 

Considering you've had 6 total fights and Deamus here is ranked 3rd in the game with over 200 fights. I think you don't know shit compared to him.

 

I'm not going to spit out some pointless ramble about the changes. I'll be blunt. I don't like them. I don't like spending a ton of time to make sure my guys don't regress skill wise when I've spent the better part of 2 years building up some of them. I feel that skill maintenance shouldn't be a factor until the age degradation hits. Then when they're old and I logically think they should be losing skills I'll be more than happy to micromanage a little bit. But until then I'll go back to my kickboxing tycoon with only 3 or 4 skills trained up and see how I do.

 

BOOM

 

Also why don't the tickers stop on Sundays? We can't train to keep them in check. No reason they should go up. Why doesn't secondary training hit the primary tickers a little bit to help keep them down?

 

EDIT: Sorry to Edsfan. I figured he was some newb.

[CusDamato]

letsgoHOKIES - Ron Bergundy - 57554 - Join Date 2011-07-05

 

Deamus - Richard Davenport - 10647 - Join Date 2009-09-07

 

Considering you've had 6 total fights and Deamus here is ranked 3rd in the game with over 200 fights. I think you don't know shit compared to him.

 

I'm not going to spit out some pointless ramble about the changes. I'll be blunt. I don't like them. I don't like spending a ton of time to make sure my guys don't regress skill wise when I've spent the better part of 2 years building up some of them. I feel that skill maintenance shouldn't be a factor until the age degradation hits. Then when they're old and I logically think they should be losing skills I'll be more than happy to micromanage a little bit. But until then I'll go back to my kickboxing tycoon with only 3 or 4 skills trained up and see how I do.

 

BOOM

 

Also why don't the tickers stop on Sundays? We can't train to keep them in check. No reason they should go up.

yeah i figured the tickers would stop on days i cant train too, but it never

[Manfred]

I've heard quite a bit of complaints in chat. I realize many of the complaints are due to the unknown. But the main complaint over and over is the maintenance. Nearly all of the complaints actually. Even those that feel like it might be good for the long term health of the game bring up these points:

 

- It forces micro management. This is a game after all and not all players want to spend THAT much time on it. "Part-Time" players are a VERY important part of the game and if they can't/won't spend more time on here to keep up and quit, the game dies.

 

- Tickers are moving to fast and/or not resetting when when I do take the time to micro-manage.

 

A couple suggestions:

 

- Maintenance doesn't apply until the fighter is over a certain age (25 maybe) or for under 25s, over Exceptional in a particular skill.

- Maintenance doesn't apply for the first 3 months of playing. New players are often overwhelmed as it is.

- Tickers should be paused on Sundays

 

 

This is the only MMO I've ever played and certainly the on-line game I've ever paid for. I love this game. But we are hemorrhaging top managers (and I'm sure many more lower profile ones) like never before. And that's a problem.

[CusDamato]

I've heard quite a bit of complaints in chat. I realize many of the complaints are due to the unknown. But the main complaint over and over is the maintenance. Nearly all of the complaints actually. Even those that feel like it might be good for the long term health of the game bring up these points:

 

- It forces micro management. This is a game after all and not all players want to spend THAT much time on it. "Part-Time" players are a VERY important part of the game and if they can't/won't spend more time on here to keep up and quit, the game dies.

 

- Tickers are moving to fast and/or not resetting when when I do take the time to micro-manage.

 

A couple suggestions:

 

- Maintenance doesn't apply until the fighter is over a certain age (25 maybe) or for under 25s, over Exceptional.

- Maintenance doesn't apply for the first 3 months of playing. New players are often overwhelmed as it is.

- Tickers should be paused on Sundays

 

 

This is the only MMO I've ever played and certainly the on-line game I've ever paid for. I love this game. But we are hemorrhaging top managers (and I'm sure many more lower profile ones) like never before. And that's a problem.

completely agree the game is starting to become a chore more so then fun for me.

[Guest]

AMEN!

[Guest]

Mike, has there been a change to the effects of back-to-back sparring? Is/will there be a difference if it is sparring in different arts (boxing AM/Wrestling PM)?

 

Thanks.

[PBR]

Mike, has there been a change to the effects of back-to-back sparring? Is/will there be a difference if it is sparring in different arts (boxing AM/Wrestling PM)?

 

Thanks.

no change on back to back sparring or diminishing returns --- there is a thread on it here http://www.mmatycoon.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=24321 -- for thoughts on it if it needs to be changed back or not

[Grasman]

I've heard quite a bit of complaints in chat. I realize many of the complaints are due to the unknown. But the main complaint over and over is the maintenance. Nearly all of the complaints actually. Even those that feel like it might be good for the long term health of the game bring up these points:

 

- It forces micro management. This is a game after all and not all players want to spend THAT much time on it. "Part-Time" players are a VERY important part of the game and if they can't/won't spend more time on here to keep up and quit, the game dies.

 

- Tickers are moving to fast and/or not resetting when when I do take the time to micro-manage.

 

A couple suggestions:

 

- Maintenance doesn't apply until the fighter is over a certain age (25 maybe) or for under 25s, over Exceptional in a particular skill.

- Maintenance doesn't apply for the first 3 months of playing. New players are often overwhelmed as it is.

- Tickers should be paused on Sundays

 

 

This is the only MMO I've ever played and certainly the on-line game I've ever paid for. I love this game. But we are hemorrhaging top managers (and I'm sure many more lower profile ones) like never before. And that's a problem.

Agree 100%

[jacky67]

i don't think these tickers are really fast , it's really easy to not get into the red , just make 2 CT per week (one at the beginning of the week ,one in the last session ) , 3sparring and the rest like you want .

[MMATycoon]

I am happy to talk about improving the game but can we PLEASE not do it under this ridiculous pressure of trying to pander to people who are leaving the game after 10 days. I've had a PM today from V.G.Barns. "I'm quitting, please delete my fighters". If they want to threaten to leave the game or if they've already left then I don't care how long they've been a member; fuck them. If they aren't willing to give me personally, or the system itself (which took 4 months to develop) more than 10 days then I am not sorry to see them leave. Goodbye. I bet they've not had more than half a point of skill deterioration.

 

Now, let's talk.

 

@Manfred. Regarding it not applying under 25. Is anyone having any problems under 25? That's a genuine question. I'm only hearing from people at the top end and basically only with physicals who are struggling, not from any newbies. I'm personally of the opinion that it's easier to ease people into it rather than have something hit at 25 and have a steep learning curve. The big change in mindset is what's causing the problem now, so I don't think a turning off / on point is a good plan.

 

Let me give an example of a fighter (with numbers out of 150 instead of words just because that's how I do all the work).

 

Agility 50

Flexibility 50

Speed 90

Strength 70

Conditioning 100

Balance 70

 

Box 70

MT 70

Wrestling 90

BJJ 70

 

Punches 100

Kicks 90

Elbows 90

Knees 90

Clinchwork 105

Striking Def 90

Takedowns 100

Takedown Def 90

GNP 100

Subs 100

Def Grappling 100

 

This fighter doesn't have a single trigger bar. They are ALL over 20 so cannot be activated.

That's a total skill level of 57%

Physicals 47.8%

Primaries 50.0%

Secondaries 63.9%

 

If you start a new 18 year old, that's at 25% total so you can see that's probably a couple of in game years of training before you even have any maintenance. If you choose to go the 110 points on creation route and train that up some more, you'll probably get that ticker activating after a month and will need to do one sparring session every 2 and a half weeks to prevent it ever hitting red.

 

Again this was something that people suggested I deal with (i.e. having to create fighters a certain way). The trigger system now lets you do whatever you want but if you create a more even fighter... a more realistic one... then you'll not have any maintenance to do at all. Plus, with training faster at the top end, it's quicker to get from 90 to 110 than it used to be.

 

So whilst I understand people's concerns when they hear "slower at the bottom end", the point of that is that you don't want to put 1 point in one skill and 110 in another anymore. You want to build them 30 / 90 instead. And that build is MUCH better for a fighter in terms of going straight into fights.

 

My suggestion is that some of the new user guides will most likely need a bit of rewriting because there's a bit of a change of mindset needed on there.

 

 

 

 

 

Onto the other point:

 

Pausing on Sundays would mean you can get up to ~85% total skill instead of 82%. Slowing the tickers would mean getting up even higher than that. Beyond the level where I think there is any point in the system at all.

 

I mean, what's isthe point in a maintenance system if you never get to the point where it's maintenance and it's always just gain? I increased the speed of training at the top end and decreased energy loss so you get more gain from your training but you lose a bit elsewhere, so that fighters become more varied. If we never get to the stage where you lose anything elsewhere, we're just doing faster training!

 

So my question is, what do you guys want this system to actually do? If you want it to be a system you can manage and never get any decreases, I don't personally see the point in the system at all. If other people do, I am gunna need you to explain how that would work. To me, that system would mean you just have a load of fighters with 130/150 across the board in everything because then you ARE just looking at maintenance and doing the most bland, flat across the board training.

 

The point to me is that you HAVE to hit the red in stuff. That's the reason you DON'T have a fighter that's exactly the same all across the board. That's the reason we end up with some variety.

 

 

Rick Story talked in his post fight interview with Rogan about how he'd not done any wrestling at all before the Brenneman fight, because he'd been focussing on Muay Thai and BJJ. His wrestling had decreased. He'd hit his trigger point and hadn't maintained it. He didn't stress about hitting that trigger point - he just hit it and kept training BJJ and Muay Thai because that's what he needed for his next fight (against Marquardt). THAT'S what's you're meant to be doing on here now too, at the top of the game. You're meant to train what you need to beat your next opponent. That's why I sped up the top end.

 

You guys said you wanted more varied fighters. This is how to do it. I spent 4 months thinking about it and then making sure it worked. This is how to do it whilst giving you an option to actually change your fighters through time, through having one skill drop and increase another one. Exactly how it works in real life.

 

So if you want to have varied fighters but don't like this system, tell me another way to do it.

 

Now I had written the following end to this post.... I'm going to post it anyway but you can disregard it. Just know that my mind is flip flopping every day between the two following attitudes. The one in the quote is the one I DON'T WANT TO WIN. I don't want the quote to take over but it does at least once a day, before I squash it again.... So read it and then hope that it doesn't ever take over.

 

If people are unwilling to do it this way; if it GENUINELY means a massive drop in membership then I'll just scrap maintenance. So how many people are incapable of accepting a single point of skill loss? How many people are we talking here? I want numbers so I know whether I need to scrap it and either just leave everyone to do what they wanted like before or come up with some other plan that I haven't been able to think of in 4 months of development.

 

Right now I don't give a shit if it would mean a worse game. A game with 10,000 supermen with sensational in everything. I am just sick of defending the bloody thing. I'm sick of trying to explain why someone shouldn't quit a bloody game just because they lose 5 points in agility. I'll just do what most people want and honestly maybe I'll just go play golf all day because this took 4 months to develop and DOES make the game better if people would just give it a bloody chance and just had a minor change in mindset that OMG dropping skills isn't life or death, it's just exactly how it works in real life. If you disagree, take it up with Rick Story.

 

In fact if you disagree, let's argue. Don't hold back. Go for it. Tell me why what you want to do is better. Look at what goes wrong in your system and tell me why that isn't a problem and why you'd do that instead.

 

Now what I actually want to say is that I DO care about this game and I don't want to just let it go to shit because people refuse to change their mindsets. Because people "have worked hard to get their fighters to where they are and don't want to lose any skill".

 

I have thought about the future of the game for a long time and I don't see how that works. All I see is 10,000 of the same fighter. Far too good for anyone to catch and ultimately just a pointless mess of comic book superheros.

 

If I'm wrong, tell me why. If you can come up with a better system, amazing, I'll give you free lifetime VIP.

 

 

 

Again just to finish up on this micromanaging issue. It's only micromanaging if you choose it to be. You're meant to lose skills.

 

People told me;

- We don't like super fighters and we don't want people quad elite in a year's time

- We want variety

- We want to be able to compete without having to train for a year first

 

This system deals with all these issues. That's why I made it this way. BUT you do need to accept that skills go up as well as down.

[Guest]

Unhappy people are always the loudest. I have guys as high as 83% and I have had no issues with maintenance so far and I haven't even sparred. My biggest worry with it is actually that it's too easy to handle and that that combined with training seeming to be slower in general will make it really tough on new creations.

 

In the end I really enjoy the game and want players to stay so I can keep playing but I don't think reverting the changes would help with that. The old system was broken, going back to it will have the game die in the long run. This system might be too much for people and have the same result but at least it has a chance. Judging by some of the posts maybe you should just have slapped some constant deterioration on and left it at that...

[Guest]

Lmfao was only a matter of time before you had a mental breakdown Mike, welcome to the 'wear this jacket that let's you hug yourself' club dude.... You're one of us now

[MMATycoon]

Lmfao was only a matter of time before you had a mental breakdown Mike, welcome to the 'wear this jacket that let's you hug yourself' club dude.... You're one of us now

I've had a few before you started playing, don't worry about that

 

Compared to a few changes in the olden days, the reaction to this change has been positively glowing. It is so fundamental a change though that I do accept that people aren't necessarily just blowing off steam and I think if people can't get the change of mindset, a fair few of them will leave from the top end of the game.

 

I do also think though that mid level guys WILL inherently find it much easier to adapt to the changes though and will fill the gaps pretty smoothly at the top of the game.

[Guest]

 

Pausing on Sundays would mean you can get up to ~85% total skill instead of 82%. Slowing the tickers would mean getting up even higher than that. Beyond the level where I think there is any point in the system at all.

I mean, what's isthe point in a maintenance system if you never get to the point where it's maintenance and it's always just gain? I increased the speed of training at the top end and decreased energy loss so you get more gain from your training but you lose a bit elsewhere, so that fighters become more varied. If we never get to the stage where you lose anything elsewhere, we're just doing faster training!

 

So my question is, what do you guys want this system to actually do? If you want it to be a system you can manage and never get any decreases, I don't personally see the point in the system at all. If other people do, I am gunna need you to explain how that would work. To me, that system would mean you just have a load of fighters with 130/150 across the board in everything because then you ARE just looking at maintenance and doing the most bland, flat across the board training.

 

The point to me is that you HAVE to hit the red in stuff. That's the reason you DON'T have a fighter that's exactly the same all across the board. That's the reason we end up with some variety.

 

...

 

This system deals with all these issues. That's why I made it this way. BUT you do need to accept that skills go up as well as down.

 

 

The bold is what seems to keep escaping people who have fighters that are already far above the maintenance points in most skills.

 

They don't seem to grasp that the whole point of this system is to target that exact sort of fighter and force them to pick some specialties or to spend all their time in round-robin training to maintain high skills in everything across the board.

 

There was ample time and place to argue that we didn't need to control the top levels of skills that fighters could hit, the folks who wanted it controlled were in the majority. Believe me, I was one of the most vocal opponents of skill caps in those threads (ask AJ) but the time for debating that passed quite a while ago.

 

If we are going to have skill maintenance then it must have an effect otherwise there is no point to the system.

[EzekelRAGE]

Yo mike, have you thought about putting numbers on the graph like in the wiki? Could help ppl plan and freak out less. Also got a question about tickers. Does the quality of the coach and your skill in that 2ndary affect how much the ticker goes down? Would a sensational puncher get the same ticker decrease as a wonderful puncher? Asked in chat, just wanted to get some more responses or a response from mike .

[MMATycoon]

- The lower your skill the more ticker decrease you get from a session.

- The level of coach makes no difference. In theory you can train with a useless coach and get a ticker reset but I never bothered programming anything complex in for that because you'd have to be a complete dope to do that in the first place

- Skills in secondaries / related primaries etc does not affect the speed your ticker goes down. It does affect your trigger point though.

 

As for displaying numbers, I'm sure someone's done a greasemonkey script. Personally I would rather not just so it looks a bit neater.

[EzekelRAGE]

- The lower your skill the more ticker decrease you get from a session.

- The level of coach makes no difference. In theory you can train with a useless coach and get a ticker reset but I never bothered programming anything complex in for that because you'd have to be a complete dope to do that in the first place

- Skills in secondaries / related primaries etc does not affect the speed your ticker goes down. It does affect your trigger point though.

 

As for displaying numbers, I'm sure someone's done a greasemonkey script. Personally I would rather not just so it looks a bit neater.

Ok, thanks for the response. Just to be clear you know im talking about the numbers that were at the top and side and not the actual values of the bars in the graph right?

[MMATycoon]

Ok, thanks for the response. Just to be clear you know im talking about the numbers that were at the top and side and not the actual values of the bars in the graph right?

I presumed you meant all 3 to be honest. I've seen one greasemonkey script screenshot so someone's definitely done one. Ask in chat - I'm sure someone in there will have the link.

[EzekelRAGE]

ok thanks

[Face Kicker]

Why doesn't secondary training hit the primary tickers a little bit to help keep them down?

 

um, it does...

[Blindsided]

Guess I hadn't noticed.