ajperok Posted June 9, 2012 Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 Been messing around with various clinch strikes... elbows suck knees are ok why not use punches, all things being equal now you have boxing strikes and clinch strikes just as good as elbows or knees. You would think there would be some advantage in the clinch to having superior elbows, but as far as I can tell there is really no reason to train elbows? Shouldn't be like that. Punches shouldn't be the superior strike in both standup and clinchwork. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 9, 2012 Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 I have a fair amount of success with elbows and always have. I get the odd match where I miss a fair few but as a rule of thumb my elbows have always been effective Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasman Posted June 9, 2012 Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 Been messing around with various clinch strikes... elbows suck knees are ok why not use punches, all things being equal now you have boxing strikes and clinch strikes just as good as elbows or knees. You would think there would be some advantage in the clinch to having superior elbows, but as far as I can tell there is really no reason to train elbows? Shouldn't be like that. Punches shouldn't be the superior strike in both standup and clinchwork. It isn't like that at all, you just need different slider settings for punches than elbows/knees, to maximize each effectiveness. You score more points with elbows and knees than you do with punches and you do more damage, at least as far as im aware. Having Elbows and Knees, along with punches allows you to mix it up more and be overall more effective/dangerous in the clinch. There is no question IMO, that those of my fighters who have all 3 Primaries high (Bx - MT - Wr) AND Punches, Elbows and Knees, are way more effective in the clinch than my other fighters relying on their Wrestling and Boxing w/punches only. But, if i have to select between knees or elbows, i tend to take knees over elbows most of the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 9, 2012 Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 Been messing around with various clinch strikes... elbows suck knees are ok why not use punches, all things being equal now you have boxing strikes and clinch strikes just as good as elbows or knees. You would think there would be some advantage in the clinch to having superior elbows, but as far as I can tell there is really no reason to train elbows? Shouldn't be like that. Punches shouldn't be the superior strike in both standup and clinchwork. knees suck as well, they just dont have the landing rate to compete with punches at the higher end of the competition. To illustrate http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=445041 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajperok Posted June 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 You score more points with elbows and knees than you do with punches and you do more damage, at least as far as im aware. I had always assumed that, and was ok with that concept. However, looking at it over the past few months I'm not seeing it. I'll look at it closer later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 9, 2012 Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 It isn't like that at all, you just need different slider settings for punches than elbows/knees, to maximize each effectiveness. You score more points with elbows and knees than you do with punches and you do more damage, at least as far as im aware. Having Elbows and Knees, along with punches allows you to mix it up more and be overall more effective/dangerous in the clinch. There is no question IMO, that those of my fighters who have all 3 Primaries high (Bx - MT - Wr) AND Punches, Elbows and Knees, are way more effective in the clinch than my other fighters relying on their Wrestling and Boxing w/punches only. But, if i have to select between knees or elbows, i tend to take knees over elbows most of the time. i have not seem much use for elbows...but on a side note... OMFG THAT AVI, NAME PLX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajperok Posted June 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=451461 Ok. my fighter has 15-- Clinchwork 14-- Elbows 9-- Punches 14+ Muay Thai 14++ Wrestling 12+ Boxing So one would think, his elbows should be way better than his punches right? He lands: Elbow: (12) 7 Punches: (11) 6 and loses in the clinch to an Exceptional Boxer who likely had Elite Punches / Elite Strike D (like they all do) He also has 14- Strike D 15+ Strength 14++ Agility in other words a pretty solid skill set for holding ones own in the clinch. ---------- So the effect is two fold, 1) Why does he land as many punches as elbows when his elbows are so much better 2) Why does he get beaten by a boxer, when I would bet my Clinch skill set is better? Could be Luck, Could be hiddens. But look farther: THIS FIGHT IS A MUCH BETTER EXAMPLE: (and I won, so it's not a whine) http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=445950 Assume the same stats, they are close enough Elbow (41) 12 Punch (14) 6 Your telling me an 8 punch lands at 43% But a 14 elbow lands at about 30% It sure looks to me like elbows are way underpowered in contrast to punches in a scenario where you would think elbows should have the upperhand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fade2black Posted June 9, 2012 Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 Add elbows damage to ground and pound usage (like clinch) Punches vs elbow slider on ground Right now elbows are very underused because they can only be used for clinch head shots... Include them on the ground and the. At least you have additional options, and it would open the ground game a little more to stop fights faster against the damned counter control FYBJJ guys 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 9, 2012 Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 Elbows and knees are much harder to land than punches and in a fighter between a guy with only punches and a guy with only knees and elbows the former would win everything else being equal. However, if one guy only has punches and the other has punches, knees and elbows the latter has a fair advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajperok Posted June 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 Come to think of it, I can't recall ever losing in the clinch to anyone using mostly elbows or knees? am I the only dumb ass that actually trained elbows and knees thinking they would be some kind of edge in the clinch? (I realize the help land other things.... but I think I would have been better with sensational punching and proficient elbows, than the other way around. Even in the clinch) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 9, 2012 Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 Come to think of it, I can't recall ever losing in the clinch to anyone using elbows or knees? am I the only dumb ass that actually trained elbows and knees thinking they would be some kind of edge in the clinch? has no one seriously been finished by knees in the clinch? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasman Posted June 9, 2012 Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 has no one seriously been finished by knees in the clinch? Many fighters fell to the Knees of Kaban Demidov in MKFC. Ossi Jokinen KO'd my best fighter in the clinch with a Knee. I have lost to Elbows a couple of times, cut many times, been rocked e few times. etc.. same with Knees. My fighters have also delivered some aswell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 9, 2012 Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 Merrimac Mjolnir is a guy who uses elbows really well, but then again he has insane power and everything else too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minark Posted June 9, 2012 Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 I think everyone has clinch sliders all wrong. I think there's maybe a top 3% of managers in this game who have good use of clinch sliders while the rest of us flail around like fish out of water trying to figure it out. I sure as hell know I'm useless in the clinch. I was getting some advice from someone at one point, but he just stopped responding to me. Not sure what happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 9, 2012 Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 Many fighters fell to the Knees of Kaban Demidov in MKFC. Ossi Jokinen KO'd my best fighter in the clinch with a Knee. I have lost to Elbows a couple of times, cut many times, been rocked e few times. etc.. same with Knees. My fighters have also delivered some aswell. dude uhave to tell me that chicks name in ur avi....DAT ASS 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 10, 2012 Report Share Posted June 10, 2012 Just tossing around an idea here...I think if you really want it looked into providing some proof would go a long ways in getting the wheels rolling on this thing. So why not create two fighters, one with just punches and equal clinch, strike d etc...and the other guy with just knees and elbows...or you could give that guy the same punches but elbows and knees as well etc etc, I don't want to get too deep into the logistics, but you get the idea. I would think some people would be really interested to see the results and gauge an idea of just how advantageous they are. Might also provide the ammo you need in the form of positive proof to really push for a change. Obviously some things will be out of your control, like hiddens, but I still think it's a really sound idea to put it to the test. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 10, 2012 Report Share Posted June 10, 2012 Add elbows damage to ground and pound usage (like clinch) Punches vs elbow slider on ground Right now elbows are very underused because they can only be used for clinch head shots... Include them on the ground and the. At least you have additional options, and it would open the ground game a little more to stop fights faster against the damned counter control FYBJJ guys This would make grapplers horrible to maintain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 10, 2012 Report Share Posted June 10, 2012 I agree Elbows should be part of the ground game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minark Posted June 10, 2012 Report Share Posted June 10, 2012 This would make grapplers horrible to maintain. Agree completely. By the time all these ideas are done all ground fighters are going to have to have exceptional or better in all secondaries, sensational in all primaries and elite in all physicals to have any use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 10, 2012 Report Share Posted June 10, 2012 The problem for elbow to me is that I can't use it solely unless I go 100% hit on head because your fighter will throw (useless--) knees to the body. That makes elbow the tertiary strike in the clinch. Knees are okay though as it is friendly slider-wise while elbows are unusable without knees unless you go 100% head strikes. Punches will probably remain the universal primary striking skill forever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajperok Posted June 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2012 You can try to say it's sliders, you can try to make matchups.... but there is still no good answer as to why my Proficient Punches land just as effectively as Sensational Elbows. Were talking 80% more skill points essentially with barely a noticeable difference in result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 11, 2012 Report Share Posted June 11, 2012 You can try to say it's sliders, you can try to make matchups.... but there is still no good answer as to why my Proficient Punches land just as effectively as Sensational Elbows. Were talking 80% more skill points essentially with barely a noticeable difference in result. They're landing less...but what's the difference in damage, how much more likely are the elbows to cut the other fighter? (which as far as I know is the main point to having elbows)...if they landed just as frequently as punches opponents wouldn't last a minute in the clinch...I'm assuming that's to keep it in balance. Yeah I thought making a mtachup to provide some proof would help your cause. If you're so reticent to do anything about it, I think this thread isn't going to go anywhere other than just appearing like a "bitch about the engine" thread. No offense...I just think to get a reaction, you need to take action. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 12, 2012 Report Share Posted June 12, 2012 They're landing less...but what's the difference in damage, how much more likely are the elbows to cut the other fighter? (which as far as I know is the main point to having elbows)...if they landed just as frequently as punches opponents wouldn't last a minute in the clinch...I'm assuming that's to keep it in balance. Yeah I thought making a mtachup to provide some proof would help your cause. If you're so reticent to do anything about it, I think this thread isn't going to go anywhere other than just appearing like a "bitch about the engine" thread. No offense...I just think to get a reaction, you need to take action. The damage difference doesnt really matter when you dont hit - to ko/cut someone you need consecutive hits most often, not to mention that hitting in clinch seems to take away targets next action, so hitting lets you hit more. There have been matches posted to support the cause, by various people including me. To be honest, you have 1 fighter who uses elbows without a shadow of success and there is almost no record of elbows being used by or against your fighters. I dont want to be mean, but what you saying appears like pure theorycrafting absent of actual experience and thus holds no water. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 12, 2012 Report Share Posted June 12, 2012 The damage difference doesnt really matter when you dont hit - to ko/cut someone you need consecutive hits most often, not to mention that hitting in clinch seems to take away targets next action, so hitting lets you hit more. This used to apply to the striking game too, which was why high agg/super high acc kick spam was so lethal. You could basically "stunlock" them with constant slaps until they gassed. Got any examples of this happening in the clinch? I've usually been able to neutralize big parts of their offensive output with control (though this obviously comes at the cost of my own offense). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 12, 2012 Report Share Posted June 12, 2012 This used to apply to the striking game too, which was why high agg/super high acc kick spam was so lethal. You could basically "stunlock" them with constant slaps until they gassed. Got any examples of this happening in the clinch? I've usually been able to neutralize big parts of their offensive output with control (though this obviously comes at the cost of my own offense). This is the most recent one I think http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=431698 , started avoiding clinch since then, older ones: http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=427383 , http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=390403 , http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=410775 . My main observation is that once a fighter starts landing, it suddenly turns into a totally one sided business Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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