Meaningful PbP

[ajperok]

This has been a topic I have wanted since I started, and I'm hoping at this point some of it might be possible.

 

As far as I know the PbP is generic.

A "tremendous blow" can do no damage, and a "jab" can be a crushing punch.

 

I would like to see the PbP start to reflect degrees of damage, or at least a reflection on the settings.

 

There are multiple ways this could be done. Simply by assigning a series of statements to match someones power settings or better yet, to have the statements actually coincide with the damage done.

 

I would also like the PBP to begin to reflect other aspects.

When viewing a fight we can see if a guy is "faster", or is a guy is way "stronger", even more skilled in some capacities. I would like to see the PBP reflect some of this.

 

For example.

A- Two guys come to the ring. One guy is 15 strength the other is 10.

Wally looks like he is no match for the more powerful Bubba, he better hope he can outwork him

B- A guy trying to break Clinch, but he is out strengthened

Wally trying desperately to break the clinch, but it appears Bubba is just too strong

C- or the opposite for trying to break clinch.

Wally is doing working his superior clinch skills masterfully keeping the stronger Bubba at a disadvantage

D- A guy repeatedly missing a quicker opponent

Wally dodging punches left and right, he seems just to fast for Bubba

E- Or if the strike D is way superior to the guy striking

Wally's defense are just to good, Bubba can't seem to get anything through

F- A guy with damage set to 5%

Wally is all stick and move, just peppering Bubba with punches that aren't doing much damage

G- A guy with damage set to 95%

Wally misses with a huge kick, he could have taken his head off with that

 

 

In some ways this would be an extension of the tale of the tape. I would like to see the PbP not only reflect to some degree an accurate presentation of the fight, but also it show reveal difference between fighters and even hiddens more so.

 

 

There are a lot of ways to go about this, and it may be an evolution over time, but I think it is important.

In other words... Don't tell me my guy is taking crushing blows etc, etc, etc,... if he isn't even getting hurt- or if I an swinging away at a guy and he is just so skilled in strike D my guy looks stupid, say so.

These are all things that would be evident if we were watching the fights, and as someone who loves to read the PbP. In fact, that is why I play the game- I think this would be a tremendous improvement.

[Erik]

It's perfectly possible from a technical perspective but it would require a lot of work for someone to actually implement.

[billyhopkins]

+1

[AlexiZaitev]

It's perfectly possible from a technical perspective but it would require a lot of work for someone to actually implement.

this because this idea represents a major change to the text generator which would require a lot of coding work to get right for little return (imo). i would rather mike focus on coding for other things.

[ajperok]

this because this idea represents a major change to the text generator which would require a lot of coding work to get right for little return (imo). i would rather mike focus on coding for other things.

 

 

I play a similar Basketball game that what pretty simple to code. (some parts of it).

I can't think of anything right now I care about than improving game play, and I see it as a huge return. The whole game is supposed to be about the fight. Lets add to the fight.

airplanes, more features to the page, business stuff.. even training are all great facets, but again they are accessories to the fight engine.

 

I play a similar Basketball game that what pretty simple to code. (some parts of it).

It was really just an if/then statement with a random chance of generating one of several assigned responses.

It already happens here with ROCKED, GASSED, VERY TIRED, "Performing very well verse the taller opponent" etc. So the fundamental script is already in place.

 

 

Players had a percentage to make a shot. Say 45% The SIM used a roll, from 0-99. There were a number of variables that went into both the 45% and the range the player could roll in.

If the barely made the shot by say 0-3% it was an "amazing, lucky,etc..

If they nailed it by 40+ it was easy,

There were defense factors. If the defender had pushed the percentage down to 35% or below on that particular shot it was "great defense" by

If the point guard had a pass (passes could improve the percentage of the shot) then the PG would get a nice pass for a 1-2% increase, "awesome" pass for a 15-20% increase.

 

Some comments would simply be based off comparing fighters skill sets.

 

Takedowns vs Takedown defense.

If one person was way more skilled in that catagorie the SIM would state it.

 

Athletics.

The more athletic fighter would be obvious too.

-----

 

I'm not asking to ever know the code, I don't want to know it. I like to assume it's very complex with multiple variables in every action. It's not easy for anyone to figure out, and that is what makes the game so fun.

 

However, I would like to see some of the obvious things that we would notice from watching a fight begin to be revealed in the PbP.

example:

If I have a striker who comes out in the first round throws a few punches , misses than gets takedown and beat out.. I would like a hint of how that happened. Did my opponent have masterful strike defense, was he fast as shit, was I throwing haymakers and got off balance etc. I realize some of this stuff we can get from the PbP, but a some of it could be luck, some of it could be skill and right now with the PbP, were just guessing.

[AlexiZaitev]

i was just referring to the striking portion (which was your first point in the op) THAT is what will be hard to code because you have to change the damage generator in such a way as to match a specific group of pbp lines. your not just talking about adding some more lines of text and improving the engine mechanics/sim in order to cover a wider range of areas if your looking at including text lines comparing individual skill sets of fighter a and fighter b in order to generate extra lines of pbp text. i personally dont want to read a longer fight when a full 3 or 5 round fight can take 7 minutes to go through using the pbp. while this doesn't seem like much, but this game is already time consuming, why make it anymore time consuming by adding more pbp text that dont make a huge difference in the actual fight result.

 

 

im fine with the way it is. changing the pbp wont really bring in new players because they still have to wait at least 2 days for a fight to happen. this game does not offer the instant gratification that most casual gamers are looking for. for us hardcore gamers or game junkies it does not matter as we are in for the long haul. and the reflecting other aspects, i see as pointless because the fight is happening, i just want to stick to things that are, in my mind, more important.

 

 

and your % system your talking about is probably already in play, all your really saying is to add flair to the pbp text. every successful strike and submission has a % range where it could finish the fight. then it has a % range it lands (in the case of strikes) and a % where it doesnt land. what your really wanting to do is get a pbp text hierarchy, where there is the % where a strike finishes the fight, then the high end of the range where the strike lands where its a 'significant' strike, meaning it does a higher amount of damage than a striker landing a lower number or a %. which i would be okay with IF its simple for mike to do because i dont see this as a needed change to the game, there are other things i would rather have mike working on, like finally getting the 'new' system to replace tickers going. plus clothing and supps need to somehow be made relevant again, otherwise orgs WILL take over the game and we will lose a lot of supp and clothing shops because they just aren't making money.

 

anyway, thats just my opinion, it would be cool if what i mentioned happens but its not something that i see is 100% needed right now.

[ajperok]

Here is an example of what bugs me.

 

I have had guys set to 5% damage before, and "crushing blow". Really? Even if the randomization made it a good shot, a "crushing or tremendous" blow text should be reserved for shots that do some real damage.. not pitter-pats I am using to set up other things.

 

That and I think we should be able to get contrast information, and that wouldn't even be the fight engine. Just comparing attributes and hiddens and making a statement about things we would be able to determine visually by watching the fight.

(this would be a good key for hiddens too)

- Like determination, self-confidence, big heart.... those things could show if they were exceptionally high or low.

[Guest]

If the flavor text had meaning instead, in terms of crushing blow for example, the pbp's would be significantly more interesting to read. If the idea is to represent the fight in writing, it's failing to do so on a pretty big level without giving any indication to the damage of the strikes landing. If landing a 'crushing blow' was meaningful, seeing that in the midst of the pitter patter jabs and such would be something to get excited about.

 

Rather than just keeping a general running count of how many strikes of unknown effectiveness were landed by each fighter until you see the unofficial scoring at the end of the round.

 

From the standpoint of purely enjoying the game, having an inkling of an idea what individual strikes were doing damage wise would make it a lot more like watching a real fight.

[AlexiZaitev]

but the problem is, that it just increases user's enjoyment, it doesn't deal with the game's fundamental problem, people cannot fight right away. people want instant gratification, but the 2 day wait for a fight is just too long for some people. it doesn't really directly improve the game, and currently there are things more important than this that need to be taken care of (ie body shots, tickers, game engine, supps and clothing companies, cutmen and cornermen, psychiatrists, plastic surgeons or just surgeons in general) all of which i personally think are more important than this.

 

 

 

would it be cool? yes

 

 

do we need it right now? no.

 

at least, thats my opinion

[Guest]

it doesn't really directly improve the game, and currently there are things more important than this that need to be taken care of (ie body shots, tickers, game engine, supps and clothing companies, cutmen and cornermen, psychiatrists, plastic surgeons or just surgeons in general)

 

Yes it does.

 

Do tell, which crippling problems with the game engine are you talking about, seeing as it makes you completely discard something that would make reading fights and scouting opponents much better?

[AlexiZaitev]

i still say take downs into mount need to be toned down, body shots (both inside and outside clinch) need to be looked at (as they were toned down to barely land to fix all the gassing that was going on).

 

 

Mannetosen, my point is it does not change the fact that this game isnt bringing in new users. changing the text wont really help that as most people who join dont have the patience to come back and check in two days (if they are lucky and get a QFC right away). this is a DRASTIC change as what it implies is adding a fourth category (essentially) to strikes. misses, normal strikes, significant strikes and finishing blows which will require (possibly) a significant amount of coding on mike's part (who is currently working on how to replace tickers i think, which is more important in my mind as peoplle ahve been complaining about tickers ever since they were added, while this is the first thread ive seen dealing with this).

 

 

hiddens are supposed to be hidden for a reason, if we can figure them out after 5 fights whats the point of having them listed in the ToT. is it nice knowing some more hidden info about your opponent? sure, but you can figure most of it out if you read their fights carefully right now (you can gauge an opponents chin, KO power, heart, confidence already just from ready their fights closely) while you wont get specifics, you can get a general idea of what those hiddens are (if they are high, low or average) isn't that enough? and with your own fighters you can generally figure out most of their hiddens in roughly 10-15 fights. i pretty much know most of the hiddens of my two oldest creations that i still have and they are at 18 and 17 fights respectively.

 

 

my fear is that this could lead to another 'project spam' where managers spam cut and creation of projects until they get exactly what they want, if you include hidden info in the text itself, it wont take long before you seen a lot of people with Tonal like chin and power combo.

 

 

projects are a risk and a long term thing. im playing devil's advocate here because this i don't see something as IT MUST happen ASAP. should it get implemented at some point in the near future? sure, but i am trying to see the big scope of things. because with the way the engine currently works (im going to be using arbitrary numbers for lack of exact info) say any strike has a 2% chance of rocking/knocking the opponent down or KOing him. thats at the very top end of the spectrum. if we say the max is 100, that means 99 and 100 means a finish or hurt opponent. a significant strike would say fall between 85-98, and to land say is 70+. so your introducing a whole new category into the engine striking book as now it has to log and show significant strikes as well instead of just jabs, misses, and finishing type blows. on top of that, you need new sets of PbP text just to deal with this new category AND possibly a graphic or something to go with it.

 

 

my point is, this isnt an easy change and there are a lot of things that need to be considered before moving towards implementation. the game has had a lot of things on the drawing board for pretty much the last year with doctors, private jets, the big engine change, tickers, the replacement to tickers, cut men, cornermen, psychologists, surgeons, housing and we need to decide on waht exactly needs to be done and in what order. or to eliminate some of the things on the development board in order to put this on it. and not to mention the issues with clothing and supp companies right now.

 

 

if this is just a relatively simple addition for mike to do then by all means talk to mike about it. but if this is a complex thing like i think it would be, let mike finish what he is currently on before approaching him with another project.

[Guest]

 

Mannetosen, my point is it does not change the fact that this game isnt bringing in new users. changing the text wont really help that as most people who join dont have the patience to come back and check in two days (if they are lucky and get a QFC right away). this is a DRASTIC change as what it implies is adding a fourth category (essentially) to strikes. misses, normal strikes, significant strikes and finishing blows which will require (possibly) a significant amount of coding on mike's part (who is currently working on how to replace tickers i think, which is more important in my mind as peoplle ahve been complaining about tickers ever since they were added, while this is the first thread ive seen dealing with this).

 

 

hiddens are supposed to be hidden for a reason, if we can figure them out after 5 fights whats the point of having them listed in the ToT. is it nice knowing some more hidden info about your opponent? sure, but you can figure most of it out if you read their fights carefully right now (you can gauge an opponents chin, KO power, heart, confidence already just from ready their fights closely) while you wont get specifics, you can get a general idea of what those hiddens are (if they are high, low or average) isn't that enough? and with your own fighters you can generally figure out most of their hiddens in roughly 10-15 fights. i pretty much know most of the hiddens of my two oldest creations that i still have and they are at 18 and 17 fights respectively.

 

my fear is that this could lead to another 'project spam' where managers spam cut and creation of projects until they get exactly what they want, if you include hidden info in the text itself, it wont take long before you seen a lot of people with Tonal like chin and power combo.

 

projects are a risk and a long term thing. im playing devil's advocate here because this i don't see something as IT MUST happen ASAP. should it get implemented at some point in the near future? sure, but i am trying to see the big scope of things. because with the way the engine currently works (im going to be using arbitrary numbers for lack of exact info) say any strike has a 2% chance of rocking/knocking the opponent down or KOing him. thats at the very top end of the spectrum. if we say the max is 100, that means 99 and 100 means a finish or hurt opponent. a significant strike would say fall between 85-98, and to land say is 70+. so your introducing a whole new category into the engine striking book as now it has to log and show significant strikes as well instead of just jabs, misses, and finishing type blows. on top of that, you need new sets of PbP text just to deal with this new category AND possibly a graphic or something to go with it.

 

my point is, this isnt an easy change and there are a lot of things that need to be considered before moving towards implementation. the game has had a lot of things on the drawing board for pretty much the last year with doctors, private jets, the big engine change, tickers, the replacement to tickers, cut men, cornermen, psychologists, surgeons, housing and we need to decide on waht exactly needs to be done and in what order. or to eliminate some of the things on the development board in order to put this on it. and not to mention the issues with clothing and supp companies right now.

 

if this is just a relatively simple addition for mike to do then by all means talk to mike about it. but if this is a complex thing like i think it would be, let mike finish what he is currently on before approaching him with another project.

 

And yet we can't only base game developments on the oh-so-elusive "new user", because that would lead to horrible stagnation. The fact that we're struggling with retaining new players doesn't invalidate other ideas.

 

That's good and all, but this would drastically enhance both reading fights, studying opponents and analyzing your own boys. It's not impossible to do now, but personally I skim over 90% of my fights these days and have for two years or so.

 

People have been saying the same thing for years, and here we are... Getting someone like Tonal is highly unlikely no matter how many duds you sack. Making fight text more dynamic won't change that.

 

I fail to see the problem. Mike sank god knows how many hours into revamping training and introducing tickers, and those tickers lasted for like a year.

 

Other than tickers and clothing/supp improvements none of those changes would create a better game than this would.

[Fade2black]

Takedowns to mount are fine so long as takedown failure energy loss along with the lack of knockdown / balance loss chances for ground game are around

[minark]

Ground game is ok right now IMO. It could be better, but I'd much prefer to see a bit more meaningful PBP. It'd be even better down the line if retired fighters can become announcers. Then intelligence hiddens or confidence hiddens or what not could change the quality of PBP. A less intelligent fighter may give PBP like it is now and a very intelligent fighter could give the more updated PBP. Then the intelligent announcer who was a retired fighter could give a small popularity boost to the company because more people will want to watch because the announcing would be more exciting. Idk, just throwing crazy ideas out there that sound like they would be cool for future improvements.

[AlexiZaitev]

as i said earlier, i have no problems with this being added in as long as we fully understand everything that will have to go into this. im personally against have hidden info included just because they are called hiddens for a reason.

 

 

the physical related ones i have no issue with (so and so appears to be faster/stronger/quicker/better cardio).

 

 

the skill related ones i do have an issue with because i personally think they are redundant in this case.

[DeadlyDirk]

And yet we can't only base game developments on the oh-so-elusive "new user", because that would lead to horrible stagnation. The fact that we're struggling with retaining new players doesn't invalidate other ideas.

 

That's good and all, but this would drastically enhance both reading fights, studying opponents and analyzing your own boys. It's not impossible to do now, but personally I skim over 90% of my fights these days and have for two years or so.

 

People have been saying the same thing for years, and here we are... Getting someone like Tonal is highly unlikely no matter how many duds you sack. Making fight text more dynamic won't change that.

 

I fail to see the problem. Mike sank god knows how many hours into revamping training and introducing tickers, and those tickers lasted for like a year.

 

Other than tickers and clothing/supp improvements none of those changes would create a better game than this would.

 

I agree that enhancing the fight display is a great idea. It doesn't need to give away eveything about your fighter but just like you Mannetosen I barely read my fights now, I usually just scan for 'clinch' or 'takedown' and then see what happens.

 

It doesn't need to go into to much depth revealing loads of info about fighters but it would be nice to see some of the wording actually match what is happening in the fight a little.

 

E.g. I had this in the opening minute of a recent fight, " is pinned up against the cage taking some big shots here. The referee is looking closely deciding whether he should stop the fight. " However I was playing around with sliders and was on very high accuracy against a guy who has only been finished twice in a couple of fights.

 

So the odds are that he wasn't taking heavy shots at all and it was just flavour text for a combination. Now this is just one example but there are several like it that can be very misleading to new users as well as experienced players.

 

I know some have mentioned that it could be too revealing if you are say at 70% damage as you'll always be throwing power shots. I'm almost certain though that Mike confirmed to be a while back in a PM that setting yourself at 70% damage does not mean you'll throw every shot at 70% and it's a more advanced algorithm than that, it does mean most of your shots will be around that damage but not every one. If I'm wrong about that then in all honesty that's the biggest change this game could do with.

[guinepighamster]

Both Alexi and AJ have a point but it really all falls back on what Mike chooses. I think having Mike's notepad would be great but it could turn into a nightmare for him if people start complaining /:

 

I do like this idea more than most others that are on standby but I also know there are people who feel the other way who might have been waiting for something a lot longer.

 

I like the retired fighters as announcers idea. It would be a good addition to the TV station idea scraps floating around for the last year or so.

[DeadlyDirk]

This might not exactly be a change to the fight engine but it would help enhance it, I've always thought the fight engine should take priority over everything more or less.

 

For what it's worth I like the idea of Mike's notepad where he could give an update of a rought order for improvements. Off hand I know he's obviously busy with his new house but I think cornermen was his next plan and perhaps fighter housing. I'm not sure what his plans were after that, drama always seems to kick off and hold things back lol.

[Stu_Pidasol]

 

I know some have mentioned that it could be too revealing if you are say at 70% damage as you'll always be throwing power shots. I'm almost certain though that Mike confirmed to be a while back in a PM that setting yourself at 70% damage does not mean you'll throw every shot at 70% and it's a more advanced algorithm than that, it does mean most of your shots will be around that damage but not every one. If I'm wrong about that then in all honesty that's the biggest change this game could do with.

 

setting to 70% damage means you throw all your shots at 70% damage, I will try to find post where Mike confirmed this, it was a thread a little while back..

 

But I also agree wholeheartley that the damage/accuracy slider needs to be way smarter than that

[Guest]

setting to 70% damage means you throw all your shots at 70% damage, I will try to find post where Mike confirmed this, it was a thread a little while back..

 

But I also agree wholeheartley that the damage/accuracy slider needs to be way smarter than that

 

It does in theory, but rolls/chance/etc all affect every single shot.

 

This I agree with tho.

[Stu_Pidasol]

It does in theory, but rolls/chance/etc all affect every single shot.

 

This I agree with tho.

 

Wouldn't that have more to do with the strike actually being succesful or not?

 

And just on this I do like the idea and what it opens up in relation to smarter scoting and game planning but to be worth anything the damage/accuracy slider would need to be much more in depth than it currently is.

[byrk]

i like this very much and i thought about it myself but...

all the guys at the top has every single physical on sens++ or elite or something along this lines.

and the difference of say... 5 points, in the 150 points scale is just so small, that the scrpits shouldnt even say it.

therefore, this addition would be meaningfull only at low/medium tier.

Would still be additional fun for less succesfull managers, but it wouldnt make lots of use in the higher leagues.

[Guest]

Wouldn't that have more to do with the strike actually being succesful or not?

 

Range of damage etc.

[ajperok]

Range of damage etc.

 

 

range of damage is huge.

 

 

Your fighter can get hit right smack in the face, and you have no way of knowing whether it was a 0% damage jab, or a 100% power shot that almost rocked him.

- That is a really big weakness in the PbP, IMO. Don't see how anyone can disagree with that?

[xanax]

range of damage is huge.

 

 

Your fighter can get hit right smack in the face, and you have no way of knowing whether it was a 0% damage jab, or a 100% power shot that almost rocked him.

- That is a really big weakness in the PbP, IMO. Don't see how anyone can disagree with that?

 

IMO showing such info wouldn't be a good idea. Some people are all ready hip to reading sliders through the PbP. What would this actually accomplish?

 

Edit: I see what you mean by your OP, I agree it would be nice to see more accurate fight analysis. But I am still torn as far as revealing too much slider info. Then again I've been drinking so I may be way off.