Guest Posted December 22, 2012 Report Share Posted December 22, 2012 I look at it like this..........Champions should always defend their title when given an opponent, but it is up to the org owner/matchmaker to set up a good fight and that includes skill difference and weight class rankings. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 22, 2012 Report Share Posted December 22, 2012 It's pretty much like this. The Champion should take on all reasonable challengers. It's the owners job to present a reasonable challenger. If no challenger is present I suggest setting up a super fight, or letting the fighter go to another org on the grounds that he'll be willing to come back to defend the title (I know Mike Thomas of TTFC does this one, and good on him for it) You can't reasonably expect a high hyped champion to fight someone who is 1000-3000 ranks below him. If the champ is 100 and the challenger is say 350-400 that's a different story. That doesn't appear to be the case here, so you really have no leg to stand on IMO. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rambo Posted December 22, 2012 Report Share Posted December 22, 2012 I understand from an org owner perspective and a fighter/manager perspective, and it's entirely circumstantial and varies from case to case. They shouldn't lose their belt unless stripped manually and if they auto-lose their belt from rejecting a title fight they should have the option of breaching their contract and becoming a FA - which I highly doubt any org owners would want to resort to. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bucko91 Posted December 22, 2012 Report Share Posted December 22, 2012 Think i should step in and say something being the Owner of the Org in question and first off id like to say ive got nothing bad to say about billy and he has never questioned a fight offered to him before this and has been great to work with. And as a show of understanding to his situation and how he felt, I released him from his contract as he felt he was unhappy being with the org. The 'missing' Details here are the 4 fighters above Billys fighter were 4 previous LOL tourenement fighters so 25 year old creations i.e Marcus Behnder, Mitch Mcdonald, Djoser Rei and Mario fry. Also the fighter that was offered was 48 Hype lower and fry being the next fighter above billlys fighter was 78 if i remember correctly. Out of the 4 of these fighters Mitch Mcdonald is probably the only fighter with a fair chance of winning and with Mcdonald only just coming off a 5 fight loss streak and willing to fight for the title in a few fights time. So we offered the fighter as he was 2 below billys fighter in the ranking the other fighter being beaten twice already and currently booked. After Billy rejected this we spoke and come to the agreement we would wait to see what happens as we currently have these 4 fighters fighting each other and Billy would rather wait whilst i sorted out some form of fight that could have been beneficial to everyone. Then after Billy and Joe communicated again Billy decided he didnt want to be in the organisation anymore and i repectifully agreed to release my CHAMPION. Unlike a certain org who wont release my sparbot unless he fights 1 more time and will only be released if he losses... GREAT I fully understood Billys situation at wanting to fight the higher hyped/ranked guys with the champ as the champ should be the highest ranked in the division as sorts and the idea of the 'champ should fight anyone we give' theory, but by us making the 4 fighters only fight each other for now until their hype comes down to a more realistic level (In theory gaining us the most profit possible from these fighters) leaving a sour taste in his mouth which tbh if it was me id probably feel the same. But My partner Joe feels like things were taken out of context with the whole not being able to put emotion in text, which caused us to lose our champ. Either way i wish Billy and King Kenny best of luck in whatever org they go to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tp61503 Posted December 23, 2012 Report Share Posted December 23, 2012 i recently had a champ decline a fight, he was ranked 550ish, the challanger 1100ish. I thought that it should have been accepted but he thought the hype was to far off. I generally try and make title fights that make the most sense, highest hype, recent fights etc. Im not a big fan of rematches though so if a guy just lost the the champ won one fight and is the highest ranked and the next guy is anywhere near him hype wise i give it to the next guy and then the next time around if the other one wins he gets it then even though a rematch lol. I always say i champ should accept all challanges unless its freaking ridiculas like way way far off hype wise. I once was offerd to defend a title with a guy who was ranked 2000 to fight against a guy who was ranked 13k lol i declined 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Showdown Posted December 23, 2012 Report Share Posted December 23, 2012 Holy crap, I had no idea it was this org and that Djoser Rei was part of the situation. I would have taken the fight if offered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 23, 2012 Report Share Posted December 23, 2012 Are you really compairing the UFC's REAL fighting to WWE's fake fighting AND coming to the conclusion that the UFC sucks? Common man,,,, Seriously???? The truth hurts and yes the ufc titles are becoming a joke. Titles in the ufc are not earned anymore. They are given to the most popular and asskissing fighters. Who has the current ufc woman champ has beaten to get the belt, noone. Who has sonnen beat at lhw to get a title shot? Noone. Who did the Diaz brothers beat to get title shots? Noone. So my point is the ufc titles are just as more of a joke as wwe. Point made. You either know or too stupid to see the truth. Which ever doesn't matter to me. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 23, 2012 Report Share Posted December 23, 2012 In Ronda's defense she beat Tate to win her title in SF, and seeing as everyone knows what's happened to Strikeforce it shouldn't be a surprise that a champion from a division that didn't exist previously in the UFC is coming in as a champion. Case in point Dominic Cruz. With that said she could very well get beat at 157(doubtful) it still wouldn't mean she wasn't carrying the strap before getting beat and in no way does it hurt the title's prestige as end of the day the better fighter's going to be the one walking out with it. To go on a tangent, personally I would prefer if the UFC had lighter weight classes for WMMA as well. But I don't see that happening alas. Sonnen talked his way into a title fight, I could care less. Every viable contender turned down the fight offer in the time it was offered, whilst Chael had no issues with fighting Bones. Does Chael deserve the title shot? Of course not. Does he deserve the fight itself? By virtue of being able to say yes, undoubtedly. Now I know by saying Sonnen doesn't deserve a title shot outside of his weight class especially coming of a loss it's a bit harder to defend why it doesn't hurt the title. But the reasoning is simple, it's up to the champion not the challenger to legitimize his reign. If Jones gets beat it's certainly not because the title's worthless, although I would suspect some sort of voodoo curse and animal sacrifices would have to be in order for Chael to get the W. Also it's not as if the winner of Hendo v Machida is not a legitimate challenger for the winner of this bout. The Diaz brothers. Can't really defend Nick. Imo Nate earned his fight, and the subsequent beating that came with it. Nick did not. GSP picked his opponent it's as simple as that. Still the man cleared that division before he got injured and there were more sharks wading in his pool. He's earned a little leeway as long as he doesn't go overboard. Big Rigg's not going anywhere he can wait for his shot. Some people, not I, felt Diaz won the Condit fight putting him so GSP beating both of the men whom had a claim on the title of interim champ(although only Condit was a legitimate claim despite what some feel) is still a nice return to form. My issue with the fight isn't that Diaz is coming off a contested loss, dude was on an 11 fight tear. It's the fact that he's coming off a suspension which frankly should have some professional connotations. Sure he wasn't taking performance enhancers, but rules are rules. Still back to my original point GSP picking different prey hasn't stopped him from being the biggest fish in the water, and Johnny getting passed over for one fight doesn't mean he's the next Fitch. It's not the titles that are becoming jokes as the fighters most deserving of the the straps find their way to the gold. It's simply the match making. Fighters are going to look out for themselves, and the company is going to to look out for itself. Neither thinks about the current rankings of their fighters if anything the question is always "Is this good for business?" For GSP a war with Diaz is going to get more people watching and essentially serves as a tune up fight, and for the UFC a bigger draw means more money. And while Hendricks gets the short end of the stick, it's also true that he's the one needing to prove himself not the other way around. And his record makes a strong case for him doing just that. A win against Ellenberger, which could go either way might I add, would cement the fact that short of Anderson Silva there's not going to be any bigger draws for GSP's next fight after Diaz than Johnny. Besides if Diaz no shows a press conference, they could always pull Hendricks or Ellenberger off the card and have one of them fight GSP instead. The issue isn't that title fights aren't earned, it's simply the nature of earning them involves a business perspective to go along with it. Still better than matchmaking in boxing which is really the only business model around you can compare it to not an imaginary the number 2 guy always fights the number 1 guy formula that sounds fair, but doesn't always have the appeal to go with the pen and paper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasman Posted December 23, 2012 Report Share Posted December 23, 2012 The truth hurts and yes the ufc titles are becoming a joke. Titles in the ufc are not earned anymore. They are given to the most popular and asskissing fighters. Who has the current ufc woman champ has beaten to get the belt, noone. Who has sonnen beat at lhw to get a title shot? Noone. Who did the Diaz brothers beat to get title shots? Noone. Yes, the latest developement in the title picture at the UFC is a bit "greedy". Having the moneymaking fights to come first, that's the American way. After all, this is a business. I know, greed sucks. So my point is the ufc titles are just as more of a joke as wwe. Point made. Your point is actually the joke. Real fighting and Choreographed fighting don't belong in the same sentence really. You can compare the UFC to boxing Orgs, Kickboxing Orgs, MT Orgs and any other REAL FIGTING Org. You can only compare the WWE to movies, like Bloodsport, Bruce Lee movies and otheyr choreographed stuff. Hell,, the WWE har as much in common with dance movies and plays as it has in common with the UFC. The WWE does choreographed fights, while dancers choreograph their dances. The WWE just choreographs fights.... In the UFC you get real men fighting real fights to see who is the better man. In the WWE you get real men fighting fake fights, with a predetermined outcome. In one there is a winner, in the other one there is a predetermined outcome, no "winner" One is REAL one is FAKE.....get it? You either know or too stupid to see the truth. Which ever doesn't matter to me. I can't help but finding this part hilarious. Do you genuinly believe that the WWE is real fighting? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 23, 2012 Report Share Posted December 23, 2012 I'm happy not to have any fighters in your org then. What benefits the Org, isn't the same as what benefits the fighter/manager. You represent your org, I represent my fighters. It would be very good to get it out in the open, which Org owners feel that way and act on it and which don't, as it isn't the "norm" for the owners of the big Orgs i've fought in. They strive to get you a fair matchup, signing you up for superfights if their division can't accomondate fair ranked fights. Some of the big org owners are actually very very good when it comes to this aspect. Maybe one of the reasons their Orgs became big and stay big, is they don't shit on their champs by offering them rubbish fights, causing the managers to actually WANT to stay there! With more information being added, I agree that it is absolutely ridiculous that the org was offering the 7th ranked guy as the challenger. I wouldn't do this in my org. I think the worst I have ever offered was the 5th ranked guy, and this was because he was an underhyped project fighter and a better skilled matchup than some of the other overhyped options. (The 5th ranked guy went on to win the belt, proving he was actually deserving of a title shot). As for your point about offering superfights when a champ has cleaned out a division, I fully agree with you. I have one champ who did just that and I gave him a superfight while waiting for some other top contenders to gain enough hype to warrant a title shot. With that being said, I will stick to my point that the champion should be willing to take on all comers. If you don't like what is being offered, accept all fights, finish your contract, and leave. An org owner who is making bad matchups will soon get the hint when all of his champions are leaving with the belt. The funny thing is that the manager being accused in this situation is Billy Bumnut, who maintains the talent roster for DFC in London. He does a great job running things there, so if he is declining, there must be at least a semi-legit reason. I'd still suggest he should have accepted, then left the org (contract was expiring), but he is generally a great manager so I will cut him some slack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacky67 Posted December 23, 2012 Report Share Posted December 23, 2012 This topic is aproved by Snake The Pendulum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabaton Posted December 23, 2012 Report Share Posted December 23, 2012 Recently a manager was very unhappy with me when I told him "champions must take on all comers". Do you think it is unreasonable for an org to expect a champion to fight every opponent that is presented to them? Let me make it clear that I don't expect anyone to accept every fight. Only if they wish to remain the champion. It isn't fair to everyone else in the division especially the person who has earned a shot and then denied. Is it unreasonable to expect a champion to take on all comers? IMO Champs don't have a say in declining opponents. They're the champ and should prove they are worthy to hold that belt. Even if it's a mismatch, tough. The only thing the champ has any say in, like everyone else, is on not being forced to fight too quickly after the last bout. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eveas Posted December 23, 2012 Report Share Posted December 23, 2012 Bumnut has been great for me. He accepts all reasonable fights without delay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigJoeSullivan Posted December 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 24, 2012 I want to make something clear here that I was not accusing Billy of anything or trying to run his name in to the ground. That's why I didn't give names. He had always been a good manager and I never had a problem with him previously. It was a bit of a unique situation in that we had recently acquired a bunch of hype monsters. Previous to that group coming in the opponent given would have been #3 hyped in the division and a great skill match. The way people talk about it sounds like I just pick matches out of a hat or something. The only reason I made the post was because I wanted to get a general idea of what the community expects because the issue opened my eyes to the fact that people actually care about P4P. I still think its irrelevant but if the community cares then it does matter and that was the point. I wasn't planning to post anymore in this thread because I don't want to stir shit but I keep getting misrepresented. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 24, 2012 Report Share Posted December 24, 2012 Yes, the latest developement in the title picture at the UFC is a bit "greedy". Having the moneymaking fights to come first, that's the American way. After all, this is a business. I know, greed sucks. Your point is actually the joke. Real fighting and Choreographed fighting don't belong in the same sentence really. You can compare the UFC to boxing Orgs, Kickboxing Orgs, MT Orgs and any other REAL FIGTING Org. You can only compare the WWE to movies, like Bloodsport, Bruce Lee movies and otheyr choreographed stuff. Hell,, the WWE har as much in common with dance movies and plays as it has in common with the UFC. The WWE does choreographed fights, while dancers choreograph their dances. The WWE just choreographs fights.... In the UFC you get real men fighting real fights to see who is the better man. In the WWE you get real men fighting fake fights, with a predetermined outcome. In one there is a winner, in the other one there is a predetermined outcome, no "winner" One is REAL one is FAKE.....get it? I can't help but finding this part hilarious. Do you genuinly believe that the WWE is real fighting? I never said wwe was real so look back at what I say before assuming things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 24, 2012 Report Share Posted December 24, 2012 In Ronda's defense she beat Tate to win her title in SF, and seeing as everyone knows what's happened to Strikeforce it shouldn't be a surprise that a champion from a division that didn't exist previously in the UFC is coming in as a champion. Case in point Dominic Cruz. With that said she could very well get beat at 157(doubtful) it still wouldn't mean she wasn't carrying the strap before getting beat and in no way does it hurt the title's prestige as end of the day the better fighter's going to be the one walking out with it. To go on a tangent, personally I would prefer if the UFC had lighter weight classes for WMMA as well. But I don't see that happening alas. Sonnen talked his way into a title fight, I could care less. Every viable contender turned down the fight offer in the time it was offered, whilst Chael had no issues with fighting Bones. Does Chael deserve the title shot? Of course not. Does he deserve the fight itself? By virtue of being able to say yes, undoubtedly. Now I know by saying Sonnen doesn't deserve a title shot outside of his weight class especially coming of a loss it's a bit harder to defend why it doesn't hurt the title. But the reasoning is simple, it's up to the champion not the challenger to legitimize his reign. If Jones gets beat it's certainly not because the title's worthless, although I would suspect some sort of voodoo curse and animal sacrifices would have to be in order for Chael to get the W. Also it's not as if the winner of Hendo v Machida is not a legitimate challenger for the winner of this bout. The Diaz brothers. Can't really defend Nick. Imo Nate earned his fight, and the subsequent beating that came with it. Nick did not. GSP picked his opponent it's as simple as that. Still the man cleared that division before he got injured and there were more sharks wading in his pool. He's earned a little leeway as long as he doesn't go overboard. Big Rigg's not going anywhere he can wait for his shot. Some people, not I, felt Diaz won the Condit fight putting him so GSP beating both of the men whom had a claim on the title of interim champ(although only Condit was a legitimate claim despite what some feel) is still a nice return to form. My issue with the fight isn't that Diaz is coming off a contested loss, dude was on an 11 fight tear. It's the fact that he's coming off a suspension which frankly should have some professional connotations. Sure he wasn't taking performance enhancers, but rules are rules. Still back to my original point GSP picking different prey hasn't stopped him from being the biggest fish in the water, and Johnny getting passed over for one fight doesn't mean he's the next Fitch. It's not the titles that are becoming jokes as the fighters most deserving of the the straps find their way to the gold. It's simply the match making. Fighters are going to look out for themselves, and the company is going to to look out for itself. Neither thinks about the current rankings of their fighters if anything the question is always "Is this good for business?" For GSP a war with Diaz is going to get more people watching and essentially serves as a tune up fight, and for the UFC a bigger draw means more money. And while Hendricks gets the short end of the stick, it's also true that he's the one needing to prove himself not the other way around. And his record makes a strong case for him doing just that. A win against Ellenberger, which could go either way might I add, would cement the fact that short of Anderson Silva there's not going to be any bigger draws for GSP's next fight after Diaz than Johnny. Besides if Diaz no shows a press conference, they could always pull Hendricks or Ellenberger off the card and have one of them fight GSP instead. The issue isn't that title fights aren't earned, it's simply the nature of earning them involves a business perspective to go along with it. Still better than matchmaking in boxing which is really the only business model around you can compare it to not an imaginary the number 2 guy always fights the number 1 guy formula that sounds fair, but doesn't always have the appeal to go with the pen and paper. I see what you are saying but the belt should not be given to fighters. They should earn it and cruz or the current ufc womans champ beat noone to have the belt. Sonnen fight should have been a 5rd non-title fight. And if he beats jones then you can setup a title fight which isnt too bad but to be handed. A belt or a shot at the belt without beating any one does degrade it a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 24, 2012 Report Share Posted December 24, 2012 I see what you are saying but the belt should not be given to fighters. They should earn it and cruz or the current ufc womans champ beat noone to have the belt. Sonnen fight should have been a 5rd non-title fight. And if he beats jones then you can setup a title fight which isnt too bad but to be handed. A belt or a shot at the belt without beating any one does degrade it a bit. Add Nick Diaz getting a title shot to that list of travesties. He lost his last fight,yet is being rewarded with a title shot. Even worse, it is his first fight back from a drug suspension. Johny Hendricks is the true #1 contender. UFC is turning into boxing now where your name and your marketability are more important than what happens in the actual sport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 24, 2012 Report Share Posted December 24, 2012 Add Nick Diaz getting a title shot to that list of travesties. He lost his last fight,yet is being rewarded with a title shot. Even worse, it is his first fight back from a drug suspension. Johny Hendricks is the true #1 contender. UFC is turning into boxing now where your name and your marketability are more important than what happens in the actual sport. Someone got what I was saying. Im not saying the ufc is a bad sports it has bad management who are just about selling fights and making money. Jds and ben henderson are the only fighters who fought tough guys to get the belts. Everything beyond that is a joke and make no sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 24, 2012 Report Share Posted December 24, 2012 No. If you dont like that he declines just cut him take his belt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasman Posted December 24, 2012 Report Share Posted December 24, 2012 I never said wwe was real so look back at what I say before assuming things. I've read it again and you are actually saying the UFC is no better than the WWE. You can't compare something real to something fake like that. Like when you said "at least the WWE champs take on all challengers". Where is the "challenge" in the WWE?? It's FAKE,, choreographed fight dances, a JOKE in comparison to the real MMA. That's like to compairing the authenticity of the bible's Creation story to scientific research of the origins of the universe, and later the origins of life. "Life didn't evolve god created it, Adam was created from dirt and later Eve from his rib" LMAO! Then you go on calling me stupid for not seeing it.... Common man, remember to think before you write. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eveas Posted December 24, 2012 Report Share Posted December 24, 2012 Enter Brainsmasher. You just brought up Bible vs science. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 24, 2012 Report Share Posted December 24, 2012 Losing any title fight, even against someone higher ranked, causes a massive drop in "value" of the fighter and a massive frop in rankings for the managers, something i find extremely stupid. Losing a title fight against someone a little bit lower ranked, means an even bigger value drop + manager rankings. For me to accept a fight for my sub p4p 100 fighter against someone ranked very low, like above p4p 1000, would be ignorance way beyond bravery,,,, basically only an moron would do that imo. On the other hand, there are many morons on Tycoon. .... It's a well known practice within Tycoon, to build a fighter up only to sacrifice him to a low hyped project with massive stats managed by an alliance member. The logic used to pull that off, is exactly the same as is seen in this thread. How's that box of kleenex treating you Princess? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasman Posted December 24, 2012 Report Share Posted December 24, 2012 How's that box of kleenex treating you Princess? It's softer and cuddlier than you could ever imagine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowser Posted December 24, 2012 Report Share Posted December 24, 2012 Geezer's Palace for President! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 24, 2012 Report Share Posted December 24, 2012 Now I am jealous Grasman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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