Keeping an eye on the fight engine since the changes

[MMATycoon]

with new changes without tickers, maybe it would be good to have training settings on two weeks basis or more. since mike said that skills will go down like after 40 sessions, having longer setting possibilty gives chance to set those less important skills once every two or three weeks.

Absolute minimum 40 sessions. For most fighters it's more like 60 or 80.

[Goatacre]

Observations from this fight I had today:

http://mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=557099

It's now more likely for a sens wrestler to take down a an exceptional one with elite tdd (5 of 7)than it is for an elite- MT guy with elite- clinch and all elite physicals to take the fight into the clinch (1 of 6) against a fighter with proficient MT. Seems way out of balance to me. I was 53 agg and 68 acc just because I was pretty sure counter take down was overpowered and didnt want to give him all that many opportunities.

Looks to me like counter takedown is way overpowered. My fighter was taken down on 25% of his missed strikes

 

My experience is pretty similar. Had this fight last night: http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=543294

 

My fighter was taken down via counter 3 times. On balance I don't feel that is actually terrible for an elite wrestler v sens++ wrestler.

 

The part that doesn't seem to make sense that there were zero successful counter strikes for either fighter during the fight. For my opponent, I imagine that's in part due to him being very high counter takedown (possibly even 100% counter takedown). However, given my fighter is elite/elite in boxing/MT v opponent who is sens boxing but useless MT, this seems really odd in comparison.

 

If a fighter who is only marginally better in wrestling can land 3 counter takedowns then a fighter who is as much better than his opponent in MT than it is possible to be, shouldn't it be the case that we would see a significantly higher number of counter strikes landing?

 

Assuming my opponent went at or close to 100% counter takedown then does that mean that he will have attempted a takedown every time my fighter missed a strike? If so, do they take the same amount of energy from a missed takedown as they do when a fighter misses a takedown when they're the active fighter? I'm not sure what the relative energy levels of the fighters were (energy bars not showing up in Safari), although the commentary does say that Sinatra was wobbling about all over the place near the end of the 5th round - shortly before succeeding with another shoot takedown attempt.

 

Something that will perhaps help our understanding of this when it's completed is the change to commentary for it reporting missed counter attempts. That might help to give a fairer picture of what is happening, but I still cannot see that 3 successful counter takedowns (elite v sens++ wrestlers) and 0 successful counter strikes (elite v sens boxers, elite v useless MT) is ever the right answer.

[JLP]

It is so incredibly hard to get in the clinch now compared to before the engine. My dedicated clinchers seem to be broken now.

[MMATycoon]

It is so incredibly hard to get in the clinch now compared to before the engine. My dedicated clinchers seem to be broken now.

Anyone else thinking the same thing?

[Guest]

I only have ine clinch guy but the fight he lost he got the clinch so i think its fine

[DeadlyDirk]

Anyone else thinking the same thing?

 

I wouldn't say harder than before but I always found it difficult to get into the clinch at top levels under the old system if you are even slightly learning towards aggression.

[JLP]

Anyone else thinking the same thing?

The first fight I wrote about is a great example of clinching really taking a hit:

 

Observations from this fight I had today:

http://mmatycoon.com...php?FTID=557099

It's now more likely for a sens wrestler to take down a an exceptional one with elite tdd (5 of 7)than it is for an elite- MT guy with elite- clinch and all elite physicals to take the fight into the clinch (1 of 6) against a fighter with proficient MT. Seems way out of balance to me. I was 53 agg and 68 acc just because I was pretty sure counter take down was overpowered and didnt want to give him all that many opportunities.

Looks to me like counter takedown is way overpowered. My fighter was taken down on 25% of his missed strikes.

 

I dont think clinchers took a direct hit, I never really had a problem getting into the clinch before the changes though. I think what happened was grapplers became so much more effective because of counter TD. Now a clincher fighting a grappler has a very limited time to get the fight into the clinch before he is taken down and then ends up with an energy deficit that is almost impossible to overcome.

I have had two of my dedicated clinchers fail to bring the fight into a clinch against grapplers with wonderful MT, who were set to heavy counter, in their last fight. The first time i used an agg/acc gameplan and the second i tried to counter into the clinch and neither was effective at all. Both times I failed badly in efforts to clinch, yet was taken down with ease(over 50%) despite both of my fighters having elite tdd and exc++ wrestling.

Striking is still decent against grappling, and I think clinching can work against strikers. However, if you try to fight a grappler with a clincher you are pretty well fucked if the other manager goes for a counter TD strategy. You will not get the clinch, you will get taken down and then you will lose because of the energy deficit.

[MMATycoon]

OK gotcha. That perhaps is quite an accurate representation of real life, I think. Can anyone think of an example of a clinch guy dominating a grappler in the clinch, in real life? That's kind of their kyrptonite, isn't it?

[JLP]

OK gotcha. That perhaps is quite an accurate representation of real life, I think. Can anyone think of an example of a clinch guy dominating a grappler in the clinch, in real life? That's kind of their kyrptonite, isn't it?

Skill levels being relatively equal, I agree with you, but not to the level we have seen in the game. The first fight I talked about was Elite vs Proficient in MT and I clinched once out of 6 attempts. In real life MMA its much easier to get into the clinch than to land a TD, in the game we are seeing the opposite.

[MMATycoon]

I don't think MT plays a massive role in determining getting to the clinch. I can't remember exactly what calc I came up with but it's probably some physicals, clinchwork, maybe wrestling, as the main ones.

[Guest]

Anyone else thinking the same thing?

 

I too think clinching is too difficult, especially if you're aggressive. I don't usually moan about the engine, but clinching is too hard, IMO.

[EzekelRAGE]

The first fight I wrote about is a great example of clinching really taking a hit:

 

 

 

I dont think clinchers took a direct hit, I never really had a problem getting into the clinch before the changes though. I think what happened was grapplers became so much more effective because of counter TD. Now a clincher fighting a grappler has a very limited time to get the fight into the clinch before he is taken down and then ends up with an energy deficit that is almost impossible to overcome.

I have had two of my dedicated clinchers fail to bring the fight into a clinch against grapplers with wonderful MT, who were set to heavy counter, in their last fight. The first time i used an agg/acc gameplan and the second i tried to counter into the clinch and neither was effective at all. Both times I failed badly in efforts to clinch, yet was taken down with ease(over 50%) despite both of my fighters having elite tdd and exc++ wrestling.

Striking is still decent against grappling, and I think clinching can work against strikers. However, if you try to fight a grappler with a clincher you are pretty well fucked if the other manager goes for a counter TD strategy. You will not get the clinch, you will get taken down and then you will lose because of the energy deficit.

Guy also had wrestling at sens as well to help cover the clinch. Seems like he has minimal kicks so would it be possible to get MT to proficient by just training clinch to elite? Also opp was older so could have a slight phys advantage. You just cant say elite > pro so i should smash

 

In goatacre's case, looks like the guy countered the punches into takedowns which the fighters are closer to in skills.

 

Note - No I dont have fighter at the "top level"

 

Edit: Seems mike touched on the clinch part. I should refresh when I leave a tab open for a while...........

[JLP]

I don't think MT plays a massive role in determining getting to the clinch. I can't remember exactly what calc I came up with but it's probably some physicals, clinchwork, maybe wrestling, as the main ones.

 

I was always under the impression from the game that MT and wrestling were around the same when it comes to initiating a clinch. MT should really should play more of a factor in instigating a clinch, if for nothing but the sake of balance. Even if MT plays little role in determining clinch, the success rate now is incredibly low, but in real life it is far, far easier to clinch up than to get a TD.

 

 

Guy also had wrestling at sens as well to help cover the clinch. Seems like he has minimal kicks so would it be possible to get MT to proficient by just training clinch to elite? Also opp was older so could have a slight phys advantage. You just cant say elite > pro so i should smash

 

In goatacre's case, looks like the guy countered the punches into takedowns which the fighters are closer to in skills.

 

Note - No I dont have fighter at the "top level"

 

Edit: Seems mike touched on the clinch part. I should refresh when I leave a tab open for a while...........

Both of the fighters I referenced are right on the verge of popping sens in wrestling. So the opponents wrestling advantage couldnt be that high. I was so easily shut out in my clinch attempt, but had more than half of the TD's attempted landed successfully despite my elite TDD. The way I build fighters I am rarely at a disadvantage physicals wise. All of my mature fighters are elite across the board or just under it.

 

I really think we have drifted into a balance issue in the game due to counter TD's being so effective. It appears to me that elite level wrestling is really going to be necessary to compete at the top level of the game now.

[EzekelRAGE]

I was always under the impression from the game that MT and wrestling were around the same when it comes to initiating a clinch. MT should really should play more of a factor in instigating a clinch, if for nothing but the sake of balance. Even if MT plays little role in determining clinch, the success rate now is incredibly low, but in real life it is far, far easier to clinch up than to get a TD.

 

 

 

Both of the fighters I referenced are right on the verge of popping sens in wrestling. So the opponents wrestling advantage couldnt be that high. I was so easily shut out in my clinch attempt, but had more than half of the TD's attempted landed successfully despite my elite TDD. The way I build fighters I am rarely at a disadvantage physicals wise. All of my mature fighters are elite across the board or just under it.

 

I really think we have drifted into a balance issue in the game due to counter TD's being so effective. It appears to me that elite level wrestling is really going to be necessary to compete at the top level of the game now.

 

Yea I thought MT and W were equalish in the clinch as well. Maybe go with 40% CW 25% Phys 20%W 15%MT

 

If we take out the counter tkds and assume your opp has elite tds then he was only 2/4 which is about what it should be with equalish stats.

 

Possibly could be looked at idk. But counter takedowns being slightly more effective than strikes makes sense since your catching your opp off guard/balance w/e. Forgot this was about the clinch. Maybe counter clinching should be bumped up a bit?

[MMATycoon]

It may well be equal between MT and wrestling, I just can't remember. To be honest, a lot of the time in real life it'd just be a stat called bumrush but we don't have that.

 

Anyway, I'm not saying we shouldn't tweak getting into the clinch, just giving a few bits of info regarding the comments so far.

[Goatacre]

In goatacre's case, looks like the guy countered the punches into takedowns which the fighters are closer to in skills.

 

I see what you're saying, although it is not how I'd envisaged the counter system working. I see it as more a two-stage process - first can the defensive fighter prevent the offensive fighter from successfully completing their move (e.g. striking defence v punches), then comparing their relevant offensive move versus the opponent's defensive ability (e.g. takedown offense v takedown defence).

 

While there is no reporting of missed counters it is very difficult to accurately argue whether or not counter takedowns are too strong because we can only guess at their success rate. Re your comment above, yes my fighter and his opponent would have been closer together in terms of punches v strike defence, however the same would be equally true of takedown offense v takedown defence for those two.

 

What would certainly not be true would be comparing my fighter's kick ability and MT v the opponent's kicks, striking defence and MT. That was a complete mismatch, so to not land a single counter strike seems completely at odds with the counter takedown experience.

[EzekelRAGE]

I see what you're saying, although it is not how I'd envisaged the counter system working. I see it as more a two-stage process - first can the defensive fighter prevent the offensive fighter from successfully completing their move (e.g. striking defence v punches), then comparing their relevant offensive move versus the opponent's defensive ability (e.g. takedown offense v takedown defence).

 

While there is no reporting of missed counters it is very difficult to accurately argue whether or not counter takedowns are too strong because we can only guess at their success rate. Re your comment above, yes my fighter and his opponent would have been closer together in terms of punches v strike defence, however the same would be equally true of takedown offense v takedown defence for those two.

 

What would certainly not be true would be comparing my fighter's kick ability and MT v the opponent's kicks, striking defence and MT. That was a complete mismatch, so to not land a single counter strike seems completely at odds with the counter takedown experience.

 

Yea I think it's true in regards to tkds/tkd d as well for that fight. Not counting the counter takedowns he landed, he was only 3/10 on them. So almost 50%.

 

Yea w/o knowing what type of strike you threw to miss the counter would be hard to tell. If all counters ended up being punches, could help slightly explain why you missed them.

 

------------------------------

Mike or whoever knows

The 5 min break taken for stuff like kick to groin is just flavor text as well or the fighters actually regain a slight amount of energy back?

[duphus]

I do think counter TD's are a little to powerful, but like goatacre said hard to tell how effective anything counter is cause you don't see the missed attempts.

 

It's also hard to tell how many counter moves you do period with certain amounts of agg/counter vs opponents agg/counter, so you can have an idea whether your counter moves are spam. I'm assuming that spam countering reduces the change of landing one, just like spamming does on a normal move, however don't know that for sure.

[Guest]

that black wrestler just did it. the guy from furthermore that's king mo's friend.

 

OK gotcha. That perhaps is quite an accurate representation of real life, I think. Can anyone think of an example of a clinch guy dominating a grappler in the clinch, in real life? That's kind of their kyrptonite, isn't it?

[Guest]

randy couture is the master at clinching. I've watched a ton of his instructional videos and ever one he talks about striking defense first. bum rushing an opponent is not getting the clinch you can bum rush them all day does not mean you will get into the clinch and stay in to the clinch justice though bummer Singapore it will not get you a takedown you must keep control and follow through without the opponent defending your attack. . upon first using great street defense the first step in getting into the clinch is either getting a single collar tie an under an over hook or plum. or even wrist control against the cage. it's definitely a combination of skills but mainly closing the distance skills. just like shooting for takedown while using clinchwork at the same time.

 

It may well be equal between MT and wrestling, I just can't remember. To be honest, a lot of the time in real life it'd just be a stat called bumrush but we don't have that.

 

Anyway, I'm not saying we shouldn't tweak getting into the clinch, just giving a few bits of info regarding the comments so far.

[soyster89]

I really haven't noticed much a difference in countering TDs or Clinch. They both seem to be very effective, especially against aggression. I would err on the side of caution with increasing ability to instigate the clinch. If most feel counter TDs are too high, maybe they should be decreased a bit, but the clinch left alone.

[ChrisPartridge]

So are we going to continue to pretend that body shots/leg kicks aren't broken? The amount of times I've now lost a fight in the first minute due to breathing heavily off a leg kick is sickening. Now I can understand if this happens late in the first round or later in the fight but the first minute? Sorry if I have a hard time believing that a leg kick that early is going to affect someone so heavily that they essentially just stop attempting anything. I've typically been pretty quiet about my gripes with the fight system but it's gotten to the point that it's now forcing me out of the game I've played for almost four years now. I've been on both ends of this and it's stupid how someone (seemingly an elite fighter) can just shut down within the first minute of the fight regardless of where they are heart wise.

 

Feel free to find faults with any of my logic as I'm sure there's plenty.

[MMATycoon]

I've never said it didn't need looking at so I'm not pretending anything. I have said that in the next big engine update that I will try and split how leg kicks work, away from energy loss for the opponent and onto sapping their speed.... I'm just not working on the engine at the moment, because I've been doing other things.

 

We'll also look at recovery / damage done by body / leg shots as a whole.

[DavyJones]

I've never said it didn't need looking at so I'm not pretending anything. I have said that in the next big engine update that I will try and split how leg kicks work, away from energy loss for the opponent and onto sapping their speed.... I'm just not working on the engine at the moment, because I've been doing other things.

 

We'll also look at recovery / damage done by body / leg shots as a whole.

 

Good to hear because this is my biggest gripe with the fight engine as well (overpowered leg/body kicks)

 

Don't worry ChrisPartridge you aren't the only one who feels this way, I 100% agree with your post and I have also vented about this topic a couple times in the past!

[ChrisPartridge]

Calling you out was in bad taste Mike. Just frustrated that somehow the mechanics of the body/leg damage system is still the way it is but I could've handled the tone better.