anderson007 Posted August 6, 2009 Report Share Posted August 6, 2009 I have seen it a bit but never to this extreme and in a title fight as well. Tiko trained hard and he popped several times in defensive grappling and if you look at the amount of sub attempts he stopped with his white belt in BJJ he deserved to see a second round. The other fighter was just spamming subs on the ground and surely if you attempt 14 different subs in 9 minutes you would gas. It really needs looking at because it's not really worth developing a stand up fighter with good defensive ground game. Here is my suggestion: Take the amount of energy lost for failed takedown and submissions and times the number by about 3x. I understand that some people can have high cardio but it is all too common and the fix isn't that complex. Match Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeepis Posted August 6, 2009 Report Share Posted August 6, 2009 I have seen it a bit but never to this extreme and in a title fight as well. Tiko trained hard and he popped several times in defensive grappling and if you look at the amount of sub attempts he stopped with his white belt in BJJ he deserved to see a second round. The other fighter was just spamming subs on the ground and surely if you attempt 14 different subs in 9 minutes you would gas. It really needs looking at because it's not really worth developing a stand up fighter with good defensive ground game. Here is my suggestion: Take the amount of energy lost for failed takedown and submissions and times the number by about 3x. I understand that some people can have high cardio but it is all too common and the fix isn't that complex. Match Also, the consequences of low energy have to be reviewed, because it seems that you can go into a match with low energy and still spam like hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 6, 2009 Report Share Posted August 6, 2009 You made a white belt, consider yourself lucky that you didn't get submitted with the first attempt. Submission attempts may seem like a lot, but not everyone puts a great deal of points towards GnP. So say a fight goes immediatley to the ground, each guy does something like 100 moves per round. Other than controlling you, and advancing position, all he has is submissions. Another thing to take into consideration is just because you see "sub attempt" doesn't mean the guy is going all out for a submission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeepis Posted August 6, 2009 Report Share Posted August 6, 2009 You made a white belt, consider yourself lucky that you didn't get submitted with the first attempt. Submission attempts may seem like a lot, but not everyone puts a great deal of points towards GnP. So say a fight goes immediatley to the ground, each guy does something like 100 moves per round. Other than controlling you, and advancing position, all he has is submissions. Another thing to take into consideration is just because you see "sub attempt" doesn't mean the guy is going all out for a submission. As far as I know, Sub Attempt DOES mean that he is attempting a submission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 6, 2009 Report Share Posted August 6, 2009 Cry me a river, you have a white belt want do you expect? Nothing needs to be done about submissions just because some people don't like them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeepis Posted August 6, 2009 Report Share Posted August 6, 2009 Cry me a river, you have a white belt want do you expect? Nothing needs to be done about submissions just because some people don't like them. I beg to differ. I changed one of my fighters' strategy to all stand-up, but accidentally forgot to change the ground settings (which were like 80% ground subs) and my fighter ended up totally sub spamming the other guy. I know, this one is my fault, but. It would've only been fair if my fighter was exhausted after like 7 sub attempts and couldn't've gone the distance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MMATycoon Posted August 6, 2009 Report Share Posted August 6, 2009 It'll get sorted - it's about 3 or 4 on the priority list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 15, 2009 Report Share Posted August 15, 2009 I have seen it a bit but never to this extreme and in a title fight as well. Tiko trained hard and he popped several times in defensive grappling and if you look at the amount of sub attempts he stopped with his white belt in BJJ he deserved to see a second round. The other fighter was just spamming subs on the ground and surely if you attempt 14 different subs in 9 minutes you would gas. It really needs looking at because it's not really worth developing a stand up fighter with good defensive ground game. Here is my suggestion: Take the amount of energy lost for failed takedown and submissions and times the number by about 3x. I understand that some people can have high cardio but it is all too common and the fix isn't that complex. Match I don't know if there's worse, but the match you're showing isn't really that bad. I'm a white belt level guy who only does no gi, and I think a purple belt of my weight and athletic abilities would take about five tries to submit me if he were going all out. If he had to deal with strikes, add a few more attempts. Your match looks about right for a white v. purple matchup. Additionally, some subs can be combined with each other. The defenses for armbar, triangle, and omoplata all lead into each other- in other words, a failed triangle can immediately be turned into an omoplata or armbar attempt. The match you posted includes several such realistic combinations- Kimura to americana to armbar- all legit transitions kimura, arm triangle, kimura, armbar, kimura, kimura, arm triangle- all legit transitions The next sequence could be considered a continuation, but I'll consider it a new one because of the reversal. Given that this is text based, it's hard to tell exactly what happened, but even if you don't combine these with the previous, you have an armbar from mount that turns into an armbar from guard due to the roll. Than you have a sole triangle attempt. Than a sole armbar. Viewed that way, you have 5 sub attempts over nine minutes. The 13 were just results of transitions that a purple belt could pull off fairly easily on a white belt. Now, if there is sub spamming to the point where one party goes for an armbar, returns to guard completely, goes for another armbar, returns to guard completely ad nauseum for the entire match, that would be fairly tiring in real life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattyBlayze Posted August 15, 2009 Report Share Posted August 15, 2009 It'll get sorted - it's about 3 or 4 on the priority list. I don't mean to provoke anything...and I would assume this would spark debate, and is probably not worthy of the talk, but... Anyway you can share the list of improvements? I'm more curious as to what is on the list than I am in what priority it is planned to be fixed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeleeG Posted August 15, 2009 Report Share Posted August 15, 2009 I would actually have no problem with sub or takedown spamming if it were controlled by the cardio/energy factor. But I trust Tycoon's judgement, I was just adding my 2-cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MMATycoon Posted August 15, 2009 Report Share Posted August 15, 2009 I don't mean to provoke anything...and I would assume this would spark debate, and is probably not worthy of the talk, but... Anyway you can share the list of improvements? I'm more curious as to what is on the list than I am in what priority it is planned to be fixed. It's got a load of "secret" links in the document so I can't share it, sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rambo Posted August 15, 2009 Report Share Posted August 15, 2009 Sub spamming don't bother me that much mainly cuz what unknown191 said. You can transition fairly easily from 1 sub attempt to another. My only issue really is takedown spamming. As long as energy takes a factor in all of this, I really don't care. I'll learn to develop a gameplan and a fighter to knock the fuckers out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 15, 2009 Report Share Posted August 15, 2009 It's got a load of "secret" links in the document so I can't share it, sorry. I think he means in general, like.. 1. Bookies 2. Sub spamming 3. ... 4.. etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 15, 2009 Report Share Posted August 15, 2009 It'll get sorted - it's about 3 or 4 on the priority list. I love you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 16, 2009 Report Share Posted August 16, 2009 I don't know if there's worse, but the match you're showing isn't really that bad. I'm a white belt level guy who only does no gi, and I think a purple belt of my weight and athletic abilities would take about five tries to submit me if he were going all out. If he had to deal with strikes, add a few more attempts. Your match looks about right for a white v. purple matchup. Additionally, some subs can be combined with each other. The defenses for armbar, triangle, and omoplata all lead into each other- in other words, a failed triangle can immediately be turned into an omoplata or armbar attempt. The match you posted includes several such realistic combinations- Kimura to americana to armbar- all legit transitions kimura, arm triangle, kimura, armbar, kimura, kimura, arm triangle- all legit transitions The next sequence could be considered a continuation, but I'll consider it a new one because of the reversal. Given that this is text based, it's hard to tell exactly what happened, but even if you don't combine these with the previous, you have an armbar from mount that turns into an armbar from guard due to the roll. Than you have a sole triangle attempt. Than a sole armbar. Viewed that way, you have 5 sub attempts over nine minutes. The 13 were just results of transitions that a purple belt could pull off fairly easily on a white belt. Now, if there is sub spamming to the point where one party goes for an armbar, returns to guard completely, goes for another armbar, returns to guard completely ad nauseum for the entire match, that would be fairly tiring in real life. I can't find any fault in this post. Well done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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