It is a sad day for America

[Guest]

[JLP]

lol. good one humors.

[gwad12345]

I'm waiting for the part where you don't confirm exactly what I said here:

 

Every political movement is made up of a coalition of different groups with different interests and ideologies.

 

And also the part where you don't do exactly what I warned against here:

If you are seeking to discredit a political movement, which faction would you emphasize, embellish and exaggerate?

 

I don't have the patience to name every single official represented in the transition government not associated with a far-right party so I'm just going to copy and paste what the article I linked said.

 

The Ukrainian far right did play an important part in the revolution. What it did, in going to the barricades, was to liberate itself from the regime of which it had been one of the bulwarks. One of the moral atrocities of the Yanukovych regime was to crush opposition from the center-right, and support opposition from the far right. By imprisoning his major opponents from the legal political parties, most famously Yulia Tymoshenko, Yanukovych was able to make of democracy a game in which he and the far right were the only players.

The far right, a party called Svoboda, grew larger in these conditions, but never remotely large enough to pose a real challenge to the Yanukovych regime in democratic elections. In this arrangement Yanukovych could then tell gullible westerners that he was the alternative to the far right. In fact, Svoboda was a house opposition that, during the revolution, rebelled against its own leadership. Against the wishes of their leaders, the radical youth of Svoboda fought in considerable numbers, alongside of course people of completely different views. They fought and they took risks and they died, sometimes while trying to save others. In the post-revolutionary situation these young men will likely seek new leadership. The leader of Svoboda, according to opinion polls, has little popular support; if he chooses to run for president, which is unlikely, he will lose.

The radical alternative to Svoboda is Right Sector, a group of far-right organizations whose frankly admitted goal was not a European future but a national revolution against all foreign influences. In the long run, Right Sector is the group to watch. For the time being, its leaders have been very careful, in conversations with both Jews and Russians, to stress that their goal is political and not ethnic or racial. In the days after the revolution they have not caused violence or disorder. On the contrary, the subway runs in Kiev. The grotesque residences of Yanukovych are visited by tourists, but they are not looted. The main one is now being used as a base for archival research by investigative journalists.

The transitional authorities were not from the right, or even from the western part of Ukraine, where nationalism is more widespread. The speaker of the parliament and the acting president is a Baptist preacher from southeastern Ukraine. All of the power ministries, where of course any coup-plotter would plant his own people, were led by professionals and Russian speakers. The acting minister of internal affairs was half Armenian and half Russian. The acting minister of defense was of Roma origin.

[JLP]

Your first point, I cant even figure out what youre getting at. You said it was easy to dispel the participation of the far right. Then as proof posted an article that reads as wishful thinking and contains no sources at all. It's one mans opinion full of unsubstantiated conjecture. Honestly, i didnt even want to comment on it because I felt it was very weak especially by pretending the Nuland tape didnt exist.

The "russian propaganda" I posted from the Huffpost and Ch. 4 is well sourced and shows a very strong participation of the far right in the newly formed ukraine government. It's indisputable.

Here is a post from the chairwoman of the Progressive Socialist party of the Ukraine:

http://tarpley.net/usa-and-eu-are-erecting-a-nazi-regime-on-ukrainian-territory/

On February 22, militants and terrorists of the Euromaidan Parliament [i.e. the Kiev fascist mob] executed a neo-Nazi coup using armed force.

Violating all norms of the Constitution, international law, and trampling European values, Parliament exceeded its authority and committed criminal acts. Washington and Brussels — who told the world and all mankind that Euromaidan is a nonviolent action of the Ukrainian people, to make a European choice and protect democracy and European values — should now honestly admit that the Ukrainian people got nothing. They used a Nazi coup, carried out by the insurgents, terrorists and politicians of Euromaidan to serve the geopolitical interests of the West.

Indisputable evidence for that is:

1) The change of government happened in an unconstitutional way. This violated the European rule of law. In violation of the XIIIth section of the Constitution (which describes in detail the procedure for changing the Constitution), without the participation of the Constitutional Court, the state system of our country has been changed by the Supreme Rada (Parliament) of Ukraine;

2) Going beyond the powers of the Parliament of Ukraine, violating article 19 of the Constitution, Parliament appointed overseers over

• the Ministry of the Interior ,
• the Security Service of Ukraine, and
• the Prosecutor General’s Office.

These supervisors are installed with the aim of exerting the political violence of Euromaidan over the constitutional institutions of the state to promote the interests of the West in an unconstitutional way;

3) Ukrainian President Yanukovych (whom our party has opposed as we have made clear for the last four years) was deprived of his constitutional powers in gross violation of the Constitution. The Constitution does not provide for a right of the Verkhovna Rada (Parliament) of Ukraine to deprive the president of power in the way this has just been done. The Constitution provides a detailed impeachment procedure which is specified in writing. But again, not guided by the rule of law, but rather by alleged revolutionary expediency, while flouting the European principle of the presumption of innocence, Yanukovych was removed from office and a new president was appointed in violation of the Constitution;

4) The Parliament, eager to defend the militants and terrorists of Euromaidan, pardoned and made heroes of all its members, beginning the process of giving them the presidency. This means that there will be no accountability for those who use armed force to kill civilians or innocent law enforcement officers, who seize and smash office buildings and warehouses with armed force, who carry out lynchings, or exercise blackmail and kidnapping. This creates a basis for the formation of a neo-Nazi repressive state machinery.

 

 

I'm not seeking to discredit any political movement. There really isnt much of a political movement to discredit. The Ukranians traded a pro-Russian corrupt oligarchy for a pro-western corrupt oligarchy.

"I am confident that Yatsenyuk consulted with the Western partners and was told that now the matter of political stability in Ukraine needs not games around the post of prime minister but a quick resolution of the political crisis," Fesenko said.

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukraine-crisis/ukraine-s-embattled-prime-minister-resigns-n553746

 

I'm sure Ukranians were fighting in the streets of Kiev to put a former IMF banker in charge of their country and welcome Austerity!

Ukraine's new leader Arseniy Yatsenyuk held firm to his promise this week that he will become the country's worst-ever Prime Minister. On Thursday, he agreed to a minimum of $14 billion to as much as $18 billion in an International Monetary Fund package that requires massive reforms of Ukraine's weak economy.

Because embracing austerity is the new political movement! The IMF has a long and impressive history of making life great in countries that take loans from it. Ask the greeks, they'll tell you.

[JLP]

https://consortiumnews.com/2014/02/26/cheering-a-democratic-coup-in-ukraine/

 

There was always a measure of hypocrisy but Official Washington used to at least pretend to stand for “democracy,” rather than taking such obvious pleasure in destabilizing elected governments, encouraging riots, overturning constitutional systems and then praising violent putsches.

But events in Ukraine and Venezuela suggest that the idea of respecting the results of elections and working within legal, albeit flawed, political systems is no longer in vogue, unless the “U.S. side” happens to win, of course. If the “U.S. side” loses, then it’s time for some “shock doctrine.” And, of course, the usual demonizing of the “enemy” leader.

Ukraine’s ousted President Viktor Yanukovych was surely no one’s idea of a pristine politician, though it looks like there are few to none of those in Ukraine, a country essentially controlled by a collection of billionaire oligarchs who jockey for power and shift their allegiances among corrupt politicians.

But Yanukovych was elected in what was regarded as a reasonably fair election in 2010. Indeed, some international observers called the election an important step toward establishing an orderly political process in Ukraine.

But Yanukovych sought to maintain cordial relations with neighboring Russia, which apparently rubbed American neocons the wrong way. Official Washington’s still-influential neocons have been livid with Russia’s President Vladimir Putin because he cooperated with U.S. President Barack Obama in averting U.S. wars against Iran and Syria.

 

 

Later in that article:

 

All of which set the stage for Ukraine. The issue at hand was whether Yanukovych should accept a closer relationship with the European Union, which was demanding substantial economic “reforms,” including an austerity plan dictated by the International Monetary Fund. Yanukovych balked at the harsh terms and turned to Ukraine’s neighbor Russia, which was offering a $15 billion loan and was keeping Ukraine’s economy afloat with discounted natural gas.

Reasonable people can disagree about whether the EU was driving too hard a bargain or whether Ukraine should undertake such painful economic “reforms” – or how Yanukovych should have balanced the interests of his divided country, with the east dominated by ethnic Russians and the west leaning toward Europe.

But protesters from western Ukraine, including far-right nationalists, sought to turn this policy dispute into a means for overthrowing the elected government. Police efforts to quell the disturbances turned violent, with the police not the only culprits. Police faced armed neo-Nazi storm troopers who attacked with firebombs and other weapons.

Though the U.S. news media did show scenes of these violent melees, the U.S. press almost universally blamed Yanukovych – and took almost gleeful pleasure as his elected government collapsed and was replaced by thuggish right-wing militias “guarding” government buildings.

[gwad12345]

My first point, which was very clear, completely accepted that there were far right nationalists represented in the transition government and played a role in the revolution while at the same time completely rejecting the caricature of the transition government as "far right".

 

It's amazing to see your "indisputable source" (an opinion piece penned by the unbiased leader of a pro-Russian political party on a website filled banners containing hilarious conspiracy theories in various languages) claim that the revolution was a "neo-nazi coup" when 95% of the officials in the transition government had no ties to any far right party let alone neo-nazis.

[JLP]

My first point, which was very clear, completely accepted that there were far right nationalists represented in the transition government and played a role in the revolution while at the same time completely rejecting the caricature of the transition government as "far right".

 

It's amazing to see your "indisputable source" (an opinion piece penned by the unbiased leader of a pro-Russian political party on a website filled banners containing hilarious conspiracy theories in various languages) claim that the revolution was a "neo-nazi coup" when 95% of the officials in the transition government had no ties to any far right party let alone neo-nazis.

Its amazing that you would interpret these sentences:

The "russian propaganda" I posted from the Huffpost and Ch. 4 is well sourced and shows a very strong participation of the far right in the newly formed ukraine government. It's indisputable.

Here is a post from the chairwoman of the Progressive Socialist party of the Ukraine:

http://tarpley.net/usa-and-eu-are-erecting-a-nazi-regime-on-ukrainian-territory/

To be referring to any article then the HuffPo or ch 4 ones detailing the far right involvement in the new government as the ones I referred to as indisputable. I dont know if you are just trying to make a straw man argument or just misread what i wrote.

 

I dont know where you get the 95% number, but nothing is further to the right then willingly signing on to an austerity deal in return for an IMF loan. The actions of the Ukranian government since the coup as well as the abundance of far right ministers and govt officials is pretty telling.

[gwad12345]

Its amazing that you would interpret these sentences:

To be referring to any article then the HuffPo or ch 4 ones detailing the far right involvement in the new government as the ones I referred to as indisputable. I dont know if you are just trying to make a straw man argument or just misread what i wrote.

 

I dont know where you get the 95% number, but nothing is further to the right then willingly signing on to an austerity deal in return for an IMF loan. The actions of the Ukranian government since the coup as well as the abundance of far right ministers and govt officials is pretty telling.

 

There are a lot of things further to the right than accepting an IMF loan. Not sure how accepting an external loan really fits into the whole Nazi (or even nationalist) narrative but I'm sure you have more indisputable statements from Kremlin controlled politicians to convince me.

 

In any case I will let Syriza know they are also far right neo-nazis. Here's some food for thought: if Syriza are neo-nazis, what does that make Golden Dawn?

[JLP]

 

There are a lot of things further to the right than accepting an IMF loan. Not sure how accepting an external loan really fits into the whole Nazi (or even nationalist) narrative but I'm sure you have more indisputable statements from Kremlin controlled politicians to convince me.

 

In any case I will let Syriza know they are also far right neo-nazis. Here's some food for thought: if Syriza are neo-nazis, what does that make Golden Dawn?

If you think accepting an austerity package (you do know what that means right?) as a condition for getting a loan isnt far right then we have far different ideas of the political spectrum. I see you once again created another straw man argument to go along with your avoidance of commenting on my use of sources that are in now way russian controlled. Tell me again how Putin controls HuffPo and Ch 4.

 

Its amusing that you can easily dismiss an Ukranian politician who was on the scene because they have anti-western views, but give whole credit to a guy living in america who was calling for a coup in his articles before the coup (no bias there) and talked bout all these people he gives credit for the coup but didnt name a single one. You cant get any farther from real news then that site, its such an obvious piece of propaganda that I was shocked you thought that was any kind of meaningful evidence at all.

 

What I've learned from this discussion is that you are embracing the propaganda youve already absorbed and been influenced by and dismissing anything else that threatens your programmed worldview. If you can go so far as to either say HuffPo and Ch 4 are russian propaganda (or just ignore it to make straw man arguments) then it seems you are too far gone.

[gwad12345]

If you think accepting an austerity package (you do know what that means right?) as a condition for getting a loan isnt far right then we have far different ideas of the political spectrum.

 

I guess we do. I dont believe accepting a loan with austerity conditions falls anywhere on the political spectrum. Right and left (far, far left in the case of the aforementioned Syriza) have both accepted similar packages while left and right (far, far right in the case of Golden Dawn, have opposed them). I was being facetious when I made this point earlier because I didnt think you were actually being serious when you made this point but I guess I was wrong.

 

What I've learned from this discussion is that you are embracing the propaganda youve already absorbed and been influenced by and dismissing anything else that threatens your programmed worldview.

 

Right back at ya.

 

 

The only fact I could uncover in that wash of opinions and unverified assertions from Russian-aligned politician's statement you shared is that revolution is illegal. Who would have thought?

[JLP]

Still going to ignore the HuffPo and CH 4 articles? When are you going to tell me how you perceive them to be russian propaganda? Ive been waiting for a while for that explanation. I'll link them again for your convenience:

Russian propaganda piece from Huffington Post

Russian propaganda outlet Ch. 4

 

Yes, I consider austerity agreements to be the hallmark of a far right or trending to authoritarian government. Anything that involves seizing the assets of the population (pensions, giving control of resources to the IMF, allowing a bank to dictate economic decisions, etc..) to be fascist/authoritarian and thus far right (a far left government gets to authoritarian status too eventually).

[JLP]

Definitely trending in the right direction.

Definition of fascism

often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual (yes) and that stands for a centralized autocratic government (yes) headed by a dictatorial leader (nope), severe economic (big yes with IMF) and social regimentation(yes, oligarchs running that show), and forcible suppression of opposition(big yes)

[gwad12345]

ch 4 piece confirms exactly what I said when I acknowledged there were far right members (it names 3) in the transition government. It doesn't mention that the majority of people still holding high offices were native Russian speakers so it's only half (if that) of the story.

 

The Huff Post piece, on the other hand, is way out there. 2 minutes of research revealed that the writer is a useful idiot who appears to split his time between HuffPo and Sputnik, a Kremlin controlled news agency.

 

Happy?

[JLP]

ch 4 piece confirms exactly what I said when I acknowledged there were far right members (it names 3) in the transition government. It doesn't mention that the majority of people still holding high offices were native Russian speakers so it's only half (if that) of the story.

 

The Huff Post piece, on the other hand, is way out there. 2 minutes of research revealed that the writer is a useful idiot who appears to split his time between HuffPo and Sputnik, a Kremlin controlled news agency.

 

Happy?

At least those articles i referenced are actually naming far right guys in the government and giving some background. Your one site that you used to back up your argument wouldnt even name single person. You are saying that 50% are russian speakers and 95% are not right wing nationalists, but you havent offered a single piece of evidence to back up your claim.

 

So anyone who doesnt recite the standard pro-west, pro-intervention talking points is a russian operative? The guy has pretty good credentials;

Michael Hughes is a Washington D.C.-based journalist and foreign policy analyst whose work has appeared in Sputnik, CNN, Examiner.com, Asia Times Online and the Afghan Online Press. Michael has a Masters in Global Security Studies from Johns Hopkins AAP in D.C. and was awarded Best Thesis in Global Studies.

 

OMG! He's had an article appear in Sputnik! He's a russian operative! Are you really advocating the resurrection of McCarthyism?

As a Russian operative he's not doing a great job, Putin should ask for a refund. There is only one article in his HuffPo timeline that is even remotely pro-russian. Most of the headlines look like a pretty standard anti-interventionist worldview.

 

I guess in your mind, youre pro-russian if you think the US shouldnt be involved in every conflict or intervening in governments around the world? I'm just trying to understand the mindset this is all coming from. Because it seems that you would think that when I went to anti war rallies during the Iraq and Afghanistan invasions/occupations and again when we got involved in libya and syria I was a russian operative. But all of that happened before Putin made a deal with Syria to keep the US from more extensive intervention, before the neo-cons decided he was enemy #1 and started all this nonsense. There was such a drastic change in the way the western governments and media talked about russia after that deal was made over the chemical weapons deal.

[gwad12345]

Definitely trending in the right direction.

Definition of fascism

often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual (yes) and that stands for a centralized autocratic government (yes) headed by a dictatorial leader (nope), severe economic (big yes with IMF) and social regimentation(yes, oligarchs running that show), and forcible suppression of opposition(big yes)

 

Again, I didnt think this needed to be said but IMF loans have been taken by both right and left government. If the far left socialist Syriza isn't enough then how about communist Romania under ceaucescu?

[gwad12345]

At least those articles i referenced are actually naming far right guys in the government and giving some background. Your one site that you used to back up your argument wouldnt even name single person. You are saying that 50% are russian speakers and 95% are not right wing nationalists, but you havent offered a single piece of evidence to back up your claim.

 

So anyone who doesnt recite the standard pro-west, pro-intervention talking points is a russian operative? The guy has pretty good credentials;

Michael Hughes is a Washington D.C.-based journalist and foreign policy analyst whose work has appeared in Sputnik, CNN, Examiner.com, Asia Times Online and the Afghan Online Press. Michael has a Masters in Global Security Studies from Johns Hopkins AAP in D.C. and was awarded Best Thesis in Global Studies.

 

OMG! He's had an article appear in Sputnik! He's a russian operative! Are you really advocating the resurrection of McCarthyism?

As a Russian operative he's not doing a great job, Putin should ask for a refund. There is only one article in his HuffPo timeline that is even remotely pro-russian. Most of the headlines look like a pretty standard anti-interventionist worldview.

 

I guess in your mind, youre pro-russian if you think the US shouldnt be involved in every conflict or intervening in governments around the world? I'm just trying to understand the mindset this is all coming from. Because it seems that you would think that when I went to anti war rallies during the Iraq and Afghanistan invasions/occupations and again when we got involved in libya and syria I was a russian operative. But all of that happened before Putin made a deal with Syria to keep the US from more extensive intervention, before the neo-cons decided he was enemy #1 and started all this nonsense. There was such a drastic change in the way the western governments and media talked about russia after that deal was made over the chemical weapons deal.

 

Now who's engaging in strawmen arguments? I never said he was a Russian operative, I said he is a useful idiot. He can be very sincere in his belief (as are you) and still follow the narrative of the Russian government 100%. And to be a contributor to Sputnik you need to follow it 100%.

[JLP]

 

Now who's engaging in strawmen arguments? I never said he was a Russian operative, I said he is a useful idiot.

right, so just having an article in sputnik makes someone a useful idiot. Extrapolating that means anyone who doesnt agree with what you believe makes said person a useful idiot?

[JLP]

 

Again, I didnt think this needed to be said but IMF loans have been taken by both right and left government. If the far left socialist Syriza isn't enough then how about communist Romania under ceaucescu?

Fascism and Communism are both authoritarian forms of government. IMF loans benefit the people who hold the power in the government at the expense of the general population. People who have a choice would never agree to austerity and imf control over their country in returns for a loan that will benefit them very little unless they are very misinformed.

[GiankaBonghi]

 

but I'm sure you have more indisputable statements from Kremlin controlled politicians to convince me.

 

 

 

Delete yourself from the Forum, dude.

[GiankaBonghi]

What happened in Sweden Friday evening..

 

U.S. president Donald Trump gave a speech in Melbourne, Florida, Saturday evening.

While speaking about keeping America safe he mentioned the major terrorist attacks in Nice, Paris and Brussels – and in the same sentence he pointed out an unspecified event in Sweden Friday evening.

”You look at what happened last night in Sweden”, he said.

 

Mr President, here is what happened in Sweden Friday night

 

• 3:24 PM (local time): A man set himself on fire at Sergels torg, a plaza in central Stockholm. He was taken to the hospital with severe burns. There is so far no information on his motives but the intelligence service is not part of the investigation.

• 6:42 PM: The famous singer Owe Thörnqvist had some technical problems during rehearsal for the singing competition ”Melodifestivalen”. (However, the 87 year old singer still managed to secure the victory the very next day.)

• 8:23 PM: A man died in hospital, after an accident in the workplace earlier that day in the city of Borås.

• 8:46 PM: Due to harsh weather in the northern parts of Sweden the road E10 was closed between Katterjåkk and Riksgränsen. Due to strong winds and snow in the region the Met office also issued an avalanche warning.

• 12:17 AM: Police officers initiated a chase for a fleeing Peugeot through central parts of the Swedish capital of Stockholm. The pursuit ended in police officers ramming the suspect at Engelbrektsgatan. The driver is now accused of driving under the influence, traffic violation and car theft.

IN LIGHTER NEWS:

11:23 AM: Ok, let’s not be fake news, this story took place in the autumn, but was reported Friday before lunch and we thought you would like it. A wooden moose got the attention of a lovesick moose bull. It all happened in 79 year old Ove Lindqvist’s garden in Byske outside Skellefteå, northern Sweden. ”I thought it was going to start a fight, instead it humped the wooden moose thrice”, he said.

 

He was referring to a jewsih journalist that was interwieving muzzi refugees being punched in the face, no not really, this journalist called Horowitz interwieved two swedish policemen and they spit everything out about refugees crisis.

 

Also, do you care to make a new list today, and see what is happening in Sweden right now? i am pretty sure you will like the new list of today, always if you care at all, eh.

[GiankaBonghi]

David Seaman has been taken down both from twitter and youtube.

 

Libtards on a vicious counterattack to silence independent journalists.

[Timqwe]

David Seaman has been taken down both from twitter and youtube.

 

Libtards on a vicious counterattack to silence independent journalists.

"journalist"

[Grasman]

 

He was referring to a jewsih journalist that was interwieving muzzi refugees being punched in the face, no not really, this journalist called Horowitz interwieved two swedish policemen and they spit everything out about refugees crisis.

 

Also, do you care to make a new list today, and see what is happening in Sweden right now? i am pretty sure you will like the new list of today, always if you care at all, eh.

I live in the country directly south of Sweden.... Denmark.

We do get pretty good, daily reports on the situation in all the Nordic countries, as soon as it happens.

Yes, there are some retarded white supremacists in Sweden (and elsewhere in Europe), terrorizing Asylum seekers.

Then there are some just as retarded foreign asylum seekers, making trouble, raping and molesting local women.

But just like the white supremacy retards, they are just a small minority making life crappy for normal people.

Part of the problem is the psychopathic propaganda drivel, coming from both sides... that shit can be contagious and needs to be stopped.

 

I'd be quite content, if all this garbage of human beings, is dropped in a hate-pit with each other to finish the job.

Then use whats left for organ donations, so something of this human garbage can be used for something good.

 

But, why am I discussing this with you??

You seem just as retarded as the previously mentioned idiots.

[GiankaBonghi]

"journalist"

 

He worked for your beloved Fuffington Post, who are you to question is journalism?

 

 

"trained kickboxer".

[GiankaBonghi]

 

 

But, why am I discussing this with you??

You seem just as retarded as the previously mentioned idiots.

 

Yep, crawl back to your liberal plantation then, what else can i say, pally.