Looking like there will soon be too few good public gyms for new fighters- Maybe already an issue if starting

[Bleakardor]

8 hours ago, Rambo said:

PUBLIC GYM ON JUICE

Looking for VIP manager(s) with a company slot who is here for the long haul. Will fund a public gym. Need a few managers to step up and chip in. Doesn't have to be motherload up front, but if/when fees get low, we'll send an influx of cash. Gym could become self sufficient when member count is up.

For those that don't know, coach skills improve with time. So if you make your coach at 130 instead of 150, one day, pretty far away because they're really, really, slow, they will be 150. This is how I have 16 coaches at Convicted Fight Club and not limited to 12. A few of these coaches are still not 150 rated and it's been years. So it isn't a quick process. I suspect larger classes = slightly faster coach improvement but this isn't confirmed.

Cozad is an embarrassment. 2 coaches. Superb cap. Skills locked and don't get better. So let's make cozad on juice. If your fighter has useless-- skills, he gets the same training he'd get with a competent coach as he would an elite one. So even a gym full of wonderful rated coaches could give a lot of noobs max training for the stats they need to boost up.

Coach List (3000 pt skill cap):

100 pts = Circuits (General)
100 pts = Circuits (General)
100 pts = Circuits (Speed)
100 pts = Circuits (Agility)
100 pts = Boxing (Punch Tech)
100 pts = Boxing (Punch Tech)
100 pts = Muay Thai (Kicks)
100 pts = Muay Thai (Kicks)
100 pts = Muay Thai (Knees)
100 pts = Muay Thai (Elbows)
200 pts = Boxing + Muay Thai (Striking Def)
200 pts = Boxing + Muay Thai (Striking Def)
300 pts = Boxing + Muay Thai + Wrestling (Clinchwork)
300 pts = Boxing + Muay Thai + Wrestling (Clinchwork)
100 pts = Wrestling (Takedown)
100 pts = Wrestling (TD Def)
100 pts = Wrestling (TD Def)
200 pts = Wrestling + BJJ (Def Grappling)
200 pts = Wrestling + BJJ (Trans)
200 pts = Wrestling + BJJ (Escapes)
100 pts = BJJ (Sub Offense)

 

 

GNP is missing intentionally. If you want to add GNP, ditch a circuits and kicks/elbows coach, add BJJ/Wrestling and dedicate to GNP. I would do that and add another defensive grappling coach before adding GNP. Would stick to above format though. Gym should have 100+ members.

100 points in everything is already better than cozad, and in time it improves.

Once you make your coaches, you need to be committed to them. You can't delete them later and replace with a new one, unless you create that coach in ordinance with your total skill cap. I.E. my gym has 3,237.8 skill points. I would need to remove two elite coaches and would be able to add a coach with 62.2 skill points, because that would equate to 3000 total which is typically the limit.

I'll chip in on this idea, financially.  Hit me up.

[Rambo]

On 11/12/2021 at 11:20 PM, Bleakardor said:

Double the skill points and cut the coach wages in half for public gyms.  Shouldn't be that hard to do.  Probably less work than changing servers every year.

finding managers that would hold public gyms... that's the kicker.

[Lefty]

Something I used to do up until I opened up my own private gym was I used to fly my fighters to  other cities around the world to find the best training opportunities since I wasn't able to find spaces or managers willing to take my fighters on in their private gyms.

Some gyms had a good coach setup and low session numbers so I could take advantage of that or switch gyms if it got worse. Some gyms had good coaches and low session attendance but lacked quality sparring partners so I remember seeking out better sparring at a certain point and I flew a couple of my guys to Las Vegas where there used to be a sparring gym and it had great sparring available.

Just dropping a suggestion for new users or anyone who has trouble finding decent training (and no private gym), because now it rly doesn't matter where your fighter is based or located as they will always be teleported to their fight with no energy loss even in the QFC as of recently, so changing bases or flying your fighters around the globe is of little consequence.

That option aside, I agree with a lot of what is being suggested in this thread as the gym situation after closer inspection seems to have deteriorated in recent years and something is needed to help the public gym situation and accomodate newer users.

I mean, we have the noob fund, why not have noob gyms available to help out the new user community?

[scottxbandz]

1 hour ago, Rambo said:

finding managers that would hold public gyms... that's the kicker.

i would 100% hold a public gym if it was allowed 6k skill points

[Rambo]

5 hours ago, scottxbandz said:

i would 100% hold a public gym if it was allowed 6k skill points

cut capacity in half and work with 3k skill points

[Bynum]

On 11/15/2021 at 9:38 AM, Rambo said:

cut capacity in half and work with 3k skill points

That's not as good.

1) It's not as good for the game, because only half as many fighters can use the gym.

2) It doesn't provide as good of training, because fewer fighters but fewer coaches means equal sized class sizes, but less sparring and fewer options per session than more fighters with more coaches.

Give public gyms more skill points, doesn't have to be double, even making it 4,000 rather than 3,000 would lead to a big improvement in training.

[Rambo]

2 hours ago, Bynum said:

That's not as good.

1) It's not as good for the game, because only half as many fighters can use the gym.

2) It doesn't provide as good of training, because fewer fighters but fewer coaches means equal sized class sizes, but less sparring and fewer options per session than more fighters with more coaches.

Give public gyms more skill points, doesn't have to be double, even making it 4,000 rather than 3,000 would lead to a big improvement in training.

open a public gym and tell me not enough skill points is the problem...

you only need elite coaches to receive maximum when your skills are like strong-wonderful level. I forget the exact range for max training benefit. Might be as low as 40 and if it were, then 110 punch tech would receive max training from 150 boxing coach. 90 punch tech would receive max training from 130 boxing coach.

I know for a fact useless secondary's train at same speed with a superb coach as they do an elite coach.

btw my proposal is simply long term project for an evolved cozad for noobs. definitely not a solution to public gyms, but would provide good training to a bunch of the bottom dwellers.

[scottxbandz]

1 hour ago, Rambo said:

open a public gym and tell me not enough skill points is the problem...

you only need elite coaches to receive maximum when your skills are like strong-wonderful level. I forget the exact range for max training benefit. Might be as low as 40 and if it were, then 110 punch tech would receive max training from 150 boxing coach. 90 punch tech would receive max training from 130 boxing coach.

I know for a fact useless secondary's train at same speed with a superb coach as they do an elite coach.

btw my proposal is simply long term project for an evolved cozad for noobs. definitely not a solution to public gyms, but would provide good training to a bunch of the bottom dwellers.

i think it would be fine for cozad to rank up and not have to deal with cleanliness/equipment condition... it would be nice if the class size thing would be less effective or something for public gyms.. 4-5 people in a session is basically boning the sessions.. even 3

[Rambo]

13 minutes ago, scottxbandz said:

i think it would be fine for cozad to rank up and not have to deal with cleanliness/equipment condition... it would be nice if the class size thing would be less effective or something for public gyms.. 4-5 people in a session is basically boning the sessions.. even 3

imo 4-10 should be roughly same benefits. 1 can be a wee bit better than 2, etc. But you really shouldn't notice a difference til you get to the upper echelons of skill lvl imo.

 

Realistically if you work 1 on 1 with Mayweather, much more beneficial than doing a class of 5 with him, so I'm content with that aspect.

[Bynum]

2 hours ago, Rambo said:

open a public gym and tell me not enough skill points is the problem...

you only need elite coaches to receive maximum when your skills are like strong-wonderful level. I forget the exact range for max training benefit. Might be as low as 40 and if it were, then 110 punch tech would receive max training from 150 boxing coach. 90 punch tech would receive max training from 130 boxing coach.

Open a public gym?  Uh, I did, I still have one, and it's full, and the skill point max is a huge problem.

I have a 35 fighter cap.  I had a cap of 30, but the other truly good public gyms closed.  I had had 10 of my fighters in my gym.  Then, part of prompting me to start this thread, the best public gym that had some room for fighters of mine besides my own, closed.  I think it was shortly after I started this thread that a great Hilo pair, one concentrating on stand up and one on grappling, closed.

I had to get 5 more of my fighters into my gym, because there was nowhere else to put them.  I now managed to find other slots and have "only" 14 of my fighters in my own gym.

I've seen the chart.  I don't have it in front of me, but I think if you're Proficient in a skill you already need Elite (140+) to receive full training.  You definitely won't get it from below Sensational (130+).

I work around it the best I can.  It says on the help pages which skills are primary for a discipline and which skills are secondary.  If a skill is secondary I don't try to make it Elite.  I settle for something around Remarkable.

I'm, with my coaches having gained skill in coaching, over the limit, but I need more coaches to even handle 35 and usually have no more than 2 per class, and never more than 3.  I have in the news about not being the 4th into a class but at times people insist on being the 4th into a class, which is where the big downturn occurs in efficiency.

Some public gyms try to have more than 15 coaches, so neglect secondary skills completely or have them at Woeful or the like.  Since I started editorializing on it in my gym news, other gyms seem to have improved in this area- at least the ones that were half-decent at any point.  I think the others over 15 coaches would love to have the secondary skills at least Respectable or something, but that cap...prevents them.

I'd love to have more coaches, and then increase the gym size a bit; but I'd have to lower secondary skills to Respectable or lower, and the coaching would suffer.

Private gyms don't have this problem.  They have 12 coaches and thus are exempt from the coach skill cap.  They don't need more because they can just change coach classes to whatever they want to train that week, so they can have a bunch of Elite coaches, many triple Elite other than the clinch coach so they have flexibility in what to have him teach.

And I could do that.  I bought a boatload of money, having bought extra VIP to do it through the exchange.  I'm even at times selling some back I bought so much; I could just take my gym private and pour that money into it.  I'm trying to keep my gym public because MMAT needs good public gyms, taking a hit on my training relative to what I could have.  I also think public gyms have a "fun" value, trying to figure out how to best program coaches' classes and all.

And I'm telling you, my biggest obstacle to my gym being really good is how low the skill cap is.

[Rambo]

8 hours ago, Bynum said:

Open a public gym?  Uh, I did, I still have one, and it's full, and the skill point max is a huge problem.

I have a 35 fighter cap.  I had a cap of 30, but the other truly good public gyms closed.  I had had 10 of my fighters in my gym.  Then, part of prompting me to start this thread, the best public gym that had some room for fighters of mine besides my own, closed.  I think it was shortly after I started this thread that a great Hilo pair, one concentrating on stand up and one on grappling, closed.

I had to get 5 more of my fighters into my gym, because there was nowhere else to put them.  I now managed to find other slots and have "only" 14 of my fighters in my own gym.

I've seen the chart.  I don't have it in front of me, but I think if you're Proficient in a skill you already need Elite (140+) to receive full training.  You definitely won't get it from below Sensational (130+).

I work around it the best I can.  It says on the help pages which skills are primary for a discipline and which skills are secondary.  If a skill is secondary I don't try to make it Elite.  I settle for something around Remarkable.

I'm, with my coaches having gained skill in coaching, over the limit, but I need more coaches to even handle 35 and usually have no more than 2 per class, and never more than 3.  I have in the news about not being the 4th into a class but at times people insist on being the 4th into a class, which is where the big downturn occurs in efficiency.

Some public gyms try to have more than 15 coaches, so neglect secondary skills completely or have them at Woeful or the like.  Since I started editorializing on it in my gym news, other gyms seem to have improved in this area- at least the ones that were half-decent at any point.  I think the others over 15 coaches would love to have the secondary skills at least Respectable or something, but that cap...prevents them.

I'd love to have more coaches, and then increase the gym size a bit; but I'd have to lower secondary skills to Respectable or lower, and the coaching would suffer.

Private gyms don't have this problem.  They have 12 coaches and thus are exempt from the coach skill cap.  They don't need more because they can just change coach classes to whatever they want to train that week, so they can have a bunch of Elite coaches, many triple Elite other than the clinch coach so they have flexibility in what to have him teach.

And I could do that.  I bought a boatload of money, having bought extra VIP to do it through the exchange.  I'm even at times selling some back I bought so much; I could just take my gym private and pour that money into it.  I'm trying to keep my gym public because MMAT needs good public gyms, taking a hit on my training relative to what I could have.  I also think public gyms have a "fun" value, trying to figure out how to best program coaches' classes and all.

And I'm telling you, my biggest obstacle to my gym being really good is how low the skill cap is.

Idk. all your classes have 1-3 per session. Doesn't seem like skill cap is the issue here if you're not getting adequate training. Seems like the bigger issue would be the drop off gains for class sizes.

If you want 1 vs 1 training, that's a private gym.

While I don't necessarily agree with gym capacity limits, think we should be able to have as many coaches as we can afford, I'm fine with it.

[Bynum]

3 minutes ago, Rambo said:

Idk. all your classes have 1-3 per session. Doesn't seem like skill cap is the issue here if you're not getting adequate training. Seems like the bigger issue would be the drop off gains for class sizes.

If you want 1 vs 1 training, that's a private gym.

While I don't necessarily agree with gym capacity limits, think we should be able to have as many coaches as we can afford, I'm fine with it.

I have one with 4 and one with 5 right now, or last I looked anyway.  Then the ones with 3, of course I can't join or it would have the bigger drop-off with 4

I know I could afford my own private gym because I went overboard buying game cash with by buying a bunch of VIP and getting a lot for it in the VIP Exchange.  I really feel like all gyms should be public.  It's true I know why private gyms are allowed, which is that people could get tricky to only allow fighters in they wanted to, even without the gym being officially private, raising the limit briefly to let the fighter in and then lowering it again so there were fewer spots than fighters.

So there will be private gyms regardless, and they'll always have an advantage, and if I want the best training I can get I have the in-game money to be able to have one.  I'm choosing to do what's better for the game, and in a weird way is more fun.  Maybe at some point I'll get sick of having lesser training than those with their own private gyms, and I'll just go private.

Every public gym owner that does that, if their gym is decent, hurts the game for those who can't afford their own private gyms; so the design should try to avoid that.

And what I can ask is that changes be made more dramatic than the public gym subsidy to lessen the difference between public and private gyms.  Give public gym owners a higher coach limit, or at least encourage secondary skills to be used for coaches by not counting the first 50 points of each skill (which also of course also increases the limit indirectly).

Private gyms will still be better.  They'll be the only place one can reliably get 1 on 1 training.  The gap can be narrowed.  I know Mike isn't into making big game changes nowadays, so something like lessening the gap further between class sizes of 3-4 and class sizes of 1 is out of the question (which I guess was done once before) isn't going to happen. But he could change the constant of the gym skill cap from 3,000 to 4,000 very easily, or with only a little more effort keep it at 3,000 but not count the first 50 points of each skill, 

[Rambo]

Idk I just really don't see point of higher skill coach cap in grand scheme of things (total removal, different story). essentially just asking for ability to make larger private gyms. 2 managers can take up every slot in a "50 person public gym".

[Bynum]

24 minutes ago, Rambo said:

Idk I just really don't see point of higher skill coach cap in grand scheme of things (total removal, different story). essentially just asking for ability to make larger private gyms. 2 managers can take up every slot in a "50 person public gym".

So is it your position that if you were starting out in the game and didn't want to buy a bunch of VIP so as to sell a boatload for in-game cash that you'd be happy with the level of training you could get in public gyms with plenty of free slots right now?

There a couple of pretty good new ones at the moment, which will fill up fast enough and also won't be so good when filled to their limits.

And when they fill up it'll again be really crappy for anyone trying to start out.  This is actually a relatively good moment because of that.  Most of the time there aren't new decently built gyms that have yet to fill.  And most would look down on those because they don't have many double/triple elites.

And if 3,000 coaching skill points is sufficient then why is there no cap with 12 coaches?  That was obviously grandfathering existing private gyms in, who don't need more than 12 coaches because one just changes the "classes" to what one wants to train this week, just making them Elite in everything.

And yes, I could do that for myself, and leave managers of the 21 fighters in my gym that aren't mine in the cold with one less good option.  I will say the public gym subsidy increase leaves my gym making a profit, for what it's worth.  It couldn't if the skill point cap allowed me to have more coaches, but I'm willing to lose in-game money to make my gym good, and I think there are other public gym owners who would also.

If someone "abused" a higher coach point cap to run a big in-theory public but in-practice private for two manager gym I don't care, it's okay with me.  It's okay with me if the limit were lifted for all gyms, public or private, because private gyms essentially have no cap because they can limit themselves to 12 coaches who just change their "classes" to fit what the owner wants to train.  Also I don't think with 4,000 point cap one could build something to house 50 fighters that would provide the level of training private gym creators expect, though (Elite everything that matters and 1v1).