shortfuse122829 Posted July 13, 2015 Report Share Posted July 13, 2015 I feel like failed takedowns should result in the clinch a lot more than it does. I think that is broken right now. That used to happen but now it seems like they somehow always end up back at distance. I've seen this a lot and never remember to make a thread about it & then forget what fights it happened in. Here is an e example of what I mean... Jamison goes for a double leg but Gregorovitsj avoids the attempt and the two fighters end up clinched against the cage as Gregorovitsj continues to drive forward. A telegraphed takedown attempt from Jamison is defended easily by Gregorovitsj. The crowd thankful this round is nearly over. Gregorovitsj keeps the fight on the outside. The fighters circle momentarily. Jamison darts into range and connects with a nice straight punch. Now this example may be deceiving because Jamison attempts a TD which could've led to a separation but it usually tells you when that happens like it does here... Jamison pushes Gregorovitsj back against the cage and lands a hook to the side of the head. Gregorovitsj's corner are urging him to control the action in the clinch for a moment, rather than mount any serious offense. I'm sure the crowd appreciate those instructions... not. Jamison tries to jump guard but he falls flat on his backside. Gregorovitsj smiles and moves away. Boris Gregorovitsj has stuffed three takedown attempts in the round now. That's going to take a lot out of John Jamison. I have seen other examples where they ended clinched against the cage and the very next move wasn't a TD but a head kick or some other strike attempt from distance. I can't remember any other fights to find examples in though & am too lazy to look right now but I will try to find more and post more examples as I see them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwad12345 Posted July 13, 2015 Report Share Posted July 13, 2015 I think that is broken right now. That used to happen but now it seems like they somehow always end up back at distance. I've seen this a lot and never remember to make a thread about it & then forget what fights it happened in. Here is an e example of what I mean... I was gonna say it feels like failed takedowns resulting a clinch used to be much more common but didn't really have anything to back me up. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boomstick Posted July 13, 2015 Report Share Posted July 13, 2015 I have a bit of a tendency to create brawl and sprawlers so, I think this update will add some extra dimension to a lot of my fighters. I like the idea about separate clinch/takedown defense but I think grapplers should have an extra skill or two added as well because, I get the feeling that Strikers are slightly harder to train. I say this because a striker needs to have a variety of strikes at his disposal that will require both MT and Boxing as well as some wrestling to defend the takedown and transition back to his feet/hold on for dear life. When you have a grappler I feel like all you really have to train is BJJ and wrestling helps a bit as well. Clinchwork is ideal but, optional. You'll need striking defense but that's just about it and you can focus entirely on your ground skills. I look forward to the update! Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortfuse122829 Posted July 13, 2015 Report Share Posted July 13, 2015 Fight engine changes July 2015 Purpose of the changes: To create a better balance between ground and standup. To stop people holding and hoping for a ref standup on the ground. To make the fights overall a bit more fluid and dynamic. The most notable change is that after every takedown attempt, there’s now a check to see if the fighter who has been taken down can immediately bounce back to their feet. This was brought in to give value to the “escapes” skill, as part of the overall changes.The kicker, to help improve the ground game activity, is that you only attempt this escape, if you’re going to try escapes once you are on the ground. The higher your “stand and escape” slider, the more chance you’ll go for / end up with one of these immediate, bounce back up escapes. Note: the chance of escaping from the bottom has actually been left as the same, from general grappling. It was fine as it was in my opinion, people were just going for the easier option of hold and hope. So…. Referee standups have been toned down. Also, the number of moves per minute on the ground has been adjusted. It hasn’t necessarily just been increased, however, the way we calculate it is different. Wereas before it was the average of both guys’ ground aggression sliders, now it’s weighted towards the more active of the two guys. So if one guy’s going to hold and hope, it won’t matter anywhere near as much. Moving in and out of the clinch is now a little easier. Landing a takedown is a little easier (to counteract somewhat the pop back up escapes). Landing GNP from guard and half guard is a little easier. Increased the chance of counters landing on the feet, after reports that going high aggressive was winning pretty much every time. Notes for the future. Ref standups can still be improved when there is decent activity but none of it is landing / coming off… We still get standups too quick in those instances. However, the changes should help to mitigate that somewhat, till I do a rework. This hasn’t ever been discussed before but I think it’s potentially a good idea if we add clinch takedowns and clinch takedown defense as separate things to standup based takedowns / takedown defense. Perhaps people will think this is just too many skills to be training / setting coaches up for but I think it would create a lot more variety in fighter builds. Strikers would obviously need both forms of takedown defense but ground guys theoretically would only need one type of takedown offense…. I’ve been watching lots of fight tape recently because of the betmma.tips stuff and it’s re-acquainted me with types of gameplan that fighters come in with. A LOT more fights end up on the ground because of clinch takedowns than double leg takedowns and I think that could be improved in game by splitting the forms of takedown into clinch / non clinch. Let me know if you have any issues. Cheers! So I'm still not completely sure how escapes from the ground works Mike. I know it's not an absolute slider because it depends what position you're in on bottom. But if escapes is not under finish/control in the hierarchy then what exactly does going 75 get up / 25 stay on ground mean? The kicker, to help improve the ground game activity, is that you only attempt this escape, if you’re going to try escapes once you are on the ground. The higher your “stand and escape” slider, the more chance you’ll go for / end up with one of these immediate, bounce back up escapes. Can you explain how going higher stand and escape is going to help the ground activity? What's to stop guys from still going counter/control and then just setting their sliders to 80 stand and escape? Wouldn't that still lead to low activity on the ground?? Though this next part certainly seems like it should counteract counter/control a bit... Also, the number of moves per minute on the ground has been adjusted. It hasn’t necessarily just been increased, however, the way we calculate it is different. Wereas before it was the average of both guys’ ground aggression sliders, now it’s weighted towards the more active of the two guys. So if one guy’s going to hold and hope, it won’t matter anywhere near as much. Overall I really like the changes but I am a little bit confused on how or if they're going to work just because I am not sure I completely understand the get up/stay on ground slider & how that exactly fits into the changes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tp61503 Posted July 13, 2015 Report Share Posted July 13, 2015 I'm always scared for changes. Hopefully these turn out OK. If we add more skills we need more points. One thing I hate is people saying its not realistic be seeing fighters good in everything. Thats not true any descent fighter has little to no weak areas. Elite fighters are great everywhere. Elite everywhere. This isn't 1997 fighters are well - rounded the great fighters are sens all around Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortfuse122829 Posted July 13, 2015 Report Share Posted July 13, 2015 Corrida tries to drive through with a takedown attempt but Gregorovitsj defends well and Corrida ends up having to push Gregorovitsj into the cage where they will battle it out in the clinch. Gregorovitsj connects with a leg kick. Corrida looked like he was expecting something else and didn't defend it. There is a good example where they go to the clinch and then the very next move is a strike from distance http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=747820 Between the 3rd and 4th min of the round 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GBK16 Posted July 13, 2015 Report Share Posted July 13, 2015 Corrida tries to drive through with a takedown attempt but Gregorovitsj defends well and Corrida ends up having to push Gregorovitsj into the cage where they will battle it out in the clinch. Gregorovitsj connects with a leg kick. Corrida looked like he was expecting something else and didn't defend it. There is a good example where they go to the clinch and then the very next move is a strike from distance http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=747820 Between the 3rd and 4th min of the round Corrida really was expecting something else I think overall these changes will shake up the game a bit and I hope it turns out to be for the better. Seems positive moves are being made, and it will be interesting to see how strikers fare against grapplers now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortfuse122829 Posted July 13, 2015 Report Share Posted July 13, 2015 Njewel tries to drive through with a takedown attempt but Beckett defends well and Njewel ends up having to push Beckett into the cage where they will battle it out in the clinch. Njewel checks the leg kick.It seemed like Njewel was going to counter with the hook but didn't fully commit to it. Beckett blocks a leg kick. Okay this is my last example but I just wanted to prove that the 1st example I posted wasn't just a fluke and the TD caused the separation. Whatever feature was put in place that failed TD attempts ended up in clinch has been broken for awhile now & I have just been too lazy to make a thread or find examples. The text says they end up in clinch and then phantomly places them back at distance http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=745719 Between the 2nd and 3rd minute of the 2nd round Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mokujin Posted July 13, 2015 Report Share Posted July 13, 2015 Sounds good, will see results after first fight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 13, 2015 Report Share Posted July 13, 2015 yeah i think thats a decent idea to add, here is also my list: Clinch Damage / Acc Ground top Damage / Acc Head / Body Elbow head / Punch Head Knee Body / Punch Body I love it, it would be very good to be able to set this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MMATycoon Posted July 13, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2015 So I'm still not completely sure how escapes from the ground works Mike. I know it's not an absolute slider because it depends what position you're in on bottom. But if escapes is not under finish/control in the hierarchy then what exactly does going 75 get up / 25 stay on ground mean? The kicker, to help improve the ground game activity, is that you only attempt this escape, if you’re going to try escapes once you are on the ground. The higher your “stand and escape” slider, the more chance you’ll go for / end up with one of these immediate, bounce back up escapes. Can you explain how going higher stand and escape is going to help the ground activity? What's to stop guys from still going counter/control and then just setting their sliders to 80 stand and escape? Wouldn't that still lead to low activity on the ground?? Though this next part certainly seems like it should counteract counter/control a bit... Also, the number of moves per minute on the ground has been adjusted. It hasn’t necessarily just been increased, however, the way we calculate it is different. Wereas before it was the average of both guys’ ground aggression sliders, now it’s weighted towards the more active of the two guys. So if one guy’s going to hold and hope, it won’t matter anywhere near as much. Overall I really like the changes but I am a little bit confused on how or if they're going to work just because I am not sure I completely understand the get up/stay on ground slider & how that exactly fits into the changes Before you if you go high control the aim is to get a standup. That would work. Going high control and escape isn't really going to get you many escapes cos you're not really trying to escape very often. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UniConor Posted July 13, 2015 Report Share Posted July 13, 2015 So, we gonna fix the probability of takedowns ending in the clinch? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
762x39 Posted July 13, 2015 Report Share Posted July 13, 2015 I think the changes sound great! If you did add the clinch takedowns and takedown d could we get 300 more skill points for the coaches in the gyms? That way we could add 2 more coaches to train those skills? As it is they coach points are maxed with the coaches we have. I also like the extra slider idea for ground and clinch. Over all a lot of exciting changes coming! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catako Posted July 13, 2015 Report Share Posted July 13, 2015 So, we gonna fix the probability of takedowns ending in the clinch? Not sure is a good idea. If a failed takedown is near the cage and you didn't sprawl I can definently see the clinch. If your in the mid of the mat and the opp fails to take you down maybe he lands face down with a good sprawl and you get away. Basickly if we do this change we pretty much kill the stricking game (just my opinion). If you have a clinch/sub fighter against a striker just go for takedowns and you either submit or you will get in clinch where you have the advantage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UniConor Posted July 13, 2015 Report Share Posted July 13, 2015 Not sure is a good idea. If a failed takedown is near the cage and you didn't sprawl I can definently see the clinch. If your in the mid of the mat and the opp fails to take you down maybe he lands face down with a good sprawl and you get away. Basickly if we do this change we pretty much kill the stricking game (just my opinion). If you have a clinch/sub fighter against a striker just go for takedowns and you either submit or you will get in clinch where you have the advantage. Which is why it should be a probability thing, because who knows when you're near the cage or in the middle of the mat. But a lot of the time I see it going to the cage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catako Posted July 13, 2015 Report Share Posted July 13, 2015 Which is why it should be a probability thing, because who knows when you're near the cage or in the middle of the mat. But a lot of the time I see it going to the cage. I think this should be decided (as I think it is now) by the agression slide. Most of the ground fighters are counters on the feet. So if your trying to counter, your not the agressor, so your backed up to the cage like say chad mendez with conor (just an example). My point, if your looking to counter with takedown I wouldn't go to a clinch after a failed takedown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UniConor Posted July 13, 2015 Report Share Posted July 13, 2015 I think this should be decided (as I think it is now) by the agression slide. Most of the ground fighters are counters on the feet. So if your trying to counter, your not the agressor, so your backed up to the cage like say chad mendez with conor (just an example). My point, if your looking to counter with takedown I wouldn't go to a clinch after a failed takedown. Thats a good call, aggressive takedown attempts result in the clinch more, that is exactly it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timmy Posted July 13, 2015 Report Share Posted July 13, 2015 This hasn’t ever been discussed before but I think it’s potentially a good idea if we add clinch takedowns and clinch takedown defense as separate things to standup based takedowns / takedown defense. Perhaps people will think this is just too many skills to be training / setting coaches up for but I think it would create a lot more variety in fighter builds. Strikers would obviously need both forms of takedown defense but ground guys theoretically would only need one type of takedown offense…. I’ve been watching lots of fight tape recently because of the betmma.tips stuff and it’s re-acquainted me with types of gameplan that fighters come in with. A LOT more fights end up on the ground because of clinch takedowns than double leg takedowns and I think that could be improved in game by splitting the forms of takedown into clinch / non clinch. More skills = more build variety. I would be happy to see that. Could this be an opportunity to bring in 2 new primes? Karate (SD, punch and kick, but no clinch/elbow/knee - something between Box and MT) and Judo (clinch takedowns and clinch tdd, control, transitions, but less subs than BJJ)? 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeaston Posted July 13, 2015 Report Share Posted July 13, 2015 I can't wait to fight a wrestler now lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 13, 2015 Report Share Posted July 13, 2015 would love to see the hype and pop hidden get a bump Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
762x39 Posted July 13, 2015 Report Share Posted July 13, 2015 I like the idea of adding new primary skills but I am sure he wants to get this lined out then build from there. But when he decides to add the extra clinch skills would be the perfect time to add a couple primary skills, but even without them the extra sliders would be nice. If we are dreaming of adding things to the game, I just started a post yesterday about letting PA's become corner men. It was talked about when PA's first came out, but nothing ever came from it. I think that would be an awesome add. The better skilled and better IQ the PA has the more he helps the fighter to adjust his game plan between rounds. All dependent on the IQ of the fighter who is fighting. The smarter he is the more he adjusts. Or the different sliders for different rounds. That way you could keep it standing the first round and try and wear down the fighter then start mixing in takedowns as the fight moves on. But we should wait and make sure these changes are good first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBennet Posted July 14, 2015 Report Share Posted July 14, 2015 Great stuff. About clinch takedowns - I think that clinchwork + takedown/takedown defense skills cover it well. How takedowns from clinch work might be tweaked a bit (I dunno if it's needed, really, as I barely ever seen them used here) but I don't think another skills is what we need. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLP Posted July 14, 2015 Report Share Posted July 14, 2015 Another suggestion for the future; make experience gain very slow. Right now it seems like all fighters gain enough experience to max out their experience hidden very early in their career. I'd like to see it be changed so that the experience hidden wouldnt max out until a fighter gets over 25-30 fights. Make experience mean something. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MMATycoon Posted July 14, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2015 Another suggestion for the future; make experience gain very slow. Right now it seems like all fighters gain enough experience to max out their experience hidden very early in their career. I'd like to see it be changed so that the experience hidden wouldnt max out until a fighter gets over 25-30 fights. Make experience mean something. Yep, I agree with that. I've wanted to do that for years but never got round to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted July 14, 2015 Report Share Posted July 14, 2015 And what does the experience hidden do? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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