List of Training Changes

[MMATycoon]

4 other people is no different to 9 other people, if they are all exactly the same star level.... by that I mean the actual number behind the star. Just with the skill descriptive words, you can have a high 4 star and a low 4 star.

[Guest]

Grasman, Yes you can be the best fighter in the group. No it isn't the closest peers because that is impossible to calculate. That was the way I wanted to do it but if you take an example of 10 fighters like this;

 

A - trains with B,C,D,E

B - trains with A,C,D,E

C - trains with A,B,D,E

D - trains with B,C,E,F

E - trains with C,D,F,G

F - trains with D,E,G,H

G - trains with E,F,H,I

H - trains with F,G,I,J

I - trains with F,G,H,J

J - trains with F,G,H,I

 

As you'll see if you count up the letters, some fighters train with more people than others. Whilst for example I trains with F even though F doesn't train with I.

 

Is A the highest rated Sparrer and J the lowest rated Sparrer e.g. A=4* B=4* C=4* D=3.5* E=3* F=3* G=2.5* H=2* I=2* J=1*

or are they just randomly allocated. e.g. A=4* B=2* C=3.5* D=1.5* etc....

 

Edit: Ignore this rechecked the Wiki page and answered my own question

[Goatacre]

So sparring with 9 other sparring partners is the most effective? I know as long as the star level is 20% better than your fighter, is good enough.

 

It would be jointly the most effective, I think. The wiki states that "sparring in groups of less than 5 total (including your own fighter), is less effective", which means that once you reach 5 in a session then you have maximised the effectiveness of the session, notwithstanding the other sparring factors (e.g. the 20% better than yourself point, like you mention).

 

So having 10 in a session would also be the most effective (as 10 is not lower than 5), but it is capped at 5 so will not be any better.

[Goatacre]

4 other people is no different to 9 other people, if they are all exactly the same star level.... by that I mean the actual number behind the star. Just with the skill descriptive words, you can have a high 4 star and a low 4 star.

 

Quite a bit more concise than my answer

[Grasman]

Grasman, Yes you can be the best fighter in the group. No it isn't the closest peers because that is impossible to calculate. That was the way I wanted to do it but if you take an example of 10 fighters like this;

 

A - trains with B,C,D,E

B - trains with A,C,D,E

C - trains with A,B,D,E

D - trains with B,C,E,F

E - trains with C,D,F,G

F - trains with D,E,G,H

G - trains with E,F,H,I

H - trains with F,G,I,J

I - trains with F,G,H,J

J - trains with F,G,H,I

 

As you'll see if you count up the letters, some fighters train with more people than others. Whilst for example I trains with F even though F doesn't train with I.

Thank you for clarifying this aspect.

 

This is pretty damn cool system actually

[MMATycoon]

Grasman, that is NOT how it's happening! I was explaining how it's impossible to work it like that, even though that's how I originally wanted to work it... You can't have I train with F even though F doesn't train with I - it just doesn't work.

 

 

The way it DOES work is just

 

A,B,C,D,E train together and F,G,H,I,J train together. Yes, it sucks for F but once he's up to E position, it's way better again because he doesn't train with anyone worse than him.

[Guest]

Grasman, Yes you can be the best fighter in the group. No it isn't the closest peers because that is impossible to calculate. That was the way I wanted to do it but if you take an example of 10 fighters like this;

 

A - trains with B,C,D,E

B - trains with A,C,D,E

C - trains with A,B,D,E

D - trains with B,C,E,F

E - trains with C,D,F,G

F - trains with D,E,G,H

G - trains with E,F,H,I

H - trains with F,G,I,J

I - trains with F,G,H,J

J - trains with F,G,H,I

 

As you'll see if you count up the letters, some fighters train with more people than others. Whilst for example I trains with F even though F doesn't train with I.

 

Edit - Here is my original more optimistic post before I read Mike's most recent post. Apparently I am an idiot too. I'm sure the changes are good for the game, but it will take some time to adjust. We will see what happens July 1st.

 

"Ok I am good with the above listed sparring system. At first I thought it was that fighters A-E only train with eachother and the same for fighters F-J. The fighters I was most worried about was fighters E and F. They were "on the bubble" of being in the advanced class and the beginner class, and someone could easily join/leave a sparring session to knock a fighter from one to the other and affect the session's effectiveness. I am comfortable with guys sparring with the 4 fighters ranked closest to their rank in the group. That it of course unless I am misunderstanding Mike's post.

 

On a side note, I train BJJ 3 days a week and the best sessions are when you get a bunch of guys around the same level with one guy better than the rest and one guy much lower than the rest. The high level guy benefits from being able to teach (the mid level guys). The low level guys benefit from learning as much technique from everyone as possible. The mid level guys benefit from both aspects. If the above system is what we are looking at, it brings the game closer to real life."

 

Edit - Turns out I did misundstand the original post. Sucks to be E and F. Ride that bubble baby.

[MMATycoon]

Skim reading FTL

[Grasman]

Grasman, that is NOT how it's happening! I was explaining how it's impossible to work it like that, even though that's how I originally wanted to work it... You can't have I train with F even though F doesn't train with I - it just doesn't work.

 

 

The way it DOES work is just

 

A,B,C,D,E train together and F,G,H,I,J train together. Yes, it sucks for F but once he's up to E position, it's way better again because he doesn't train with anyone worse than him.

Yeah that truly sucks for F, especially since it will take him ages to pop, since he is the "sparbot" of his group in the session, and the "lowest" in the other group pops much faster, being the crappy guy of that session.

 

And it is food for thought that one enters a spar session in good faith, but ends up possibly getting a crappy session after session, while someone else gets major benefits for being maybe one + higher than the other etc..

[MMATycoon]

The bigger the sparring session, the less of a problem it will be because you'll have a middle group too. Just see how it goes... you're turning into captain negative, plus 1 ing everything negative and voting for all the most negative options in all the polls.... you're talking yourself into problems that don't exist or are really a lot more minor than you are making them out to be.

[Grasman]

The bigger the sparring session, the less of a problem it will be because you'll have a middle group too. Just see how it goes... you're turning into captain negative, plus 1 ing everything negative and voting for all the most negative options in all the polls.... you're talking yourself into problems that don't exist or are really a lot more minor than you are making them out to be.

I am going to see how it goes,, this just puzzled me.

 

Thanks again for clarifying it.

 

I see this a a micro problem actually, just wanted to understand the sparring concept.

 

But, you are right, I was on a negative rampage the other day, but that was down to other things that just the changes in this game,, it was more down to RL shit than the changes, and i just took it out on the changes, since i didn't agree with them.

I made some valid points, and a some bad assumptions.

 

Edwardsfan made me think with his excellent cheese, so I decided to shut it and see what was going to happen.

 

Can't see this though as all that negative,, good for G sucks for F,, so be it.

 

I expect you to have reasonably thick skin, but if i offended you on my negative spree, i apologize for that.

[Eveas]

I have an injury question. I am not keeping this fighter, but he just got me wondering. I have a guy in a tournament. Fights are 7 days apart, and in round 1 he got a 16 day injury (in spite of not getting hit, taken down, or transitioned on once). So, in round 2 I will have a 9 day injury. Say I come out of that fight with another 16 day injury. So... Does that count as a lifetime total of 25 days or 32 days? I'd think 25, but since I am assuming they are added the day the injury is occurred I could easily see the system reading it as 32.

[MMATycoon]

That would be 32 to way it's working now. It would be pretty complicated to do it the other way.

[Guest]

I dont see a problem with the sparring group setting. F might get the short end of the stick but just like in real life someone has to be the low man. Keep in mind A is in the same boat. Best of his group. In the end guys will move out of sparring changing the order. Also the guys getting better sparring may pass F and reorder things. So its unlikely 1 single fighter will be stuck in F position forever.

[DaveBarrera]

Just one point to the people who keep saying "I don't like maintenance", nobody came up with a better idea in the full two years that training changes have been discussed. Everyone had the opportunity to come up with something better. If it was indeed better, I would have done it instead. The only other suggestions were flat total skill caps and leaving it as it is, neither of which are better.

 

 

 

I really love sparring and coach class new mode.

 

I´ve posting suporting and asking for this kind of changes and a lot of managers complain with me for this but now is up and is a very good change for the bettermen of the game.

 

Anyway I don´t agree with "nobody came up with a better idea in the full two years that training changes have been discussed". Me and more managers said a lot of times what making the game ultrarealistic (I mean the injuries and maintenance stuff) could make the game less funny.

 

There is one little reasson why you may think "nobody says nothing better". Is cause some little group of managers are ever posting the same topics over and over praying for the same ultrarealistic stuff. We all know whom and whom is ever in the forums saying ever the same words. But even so if some managers are ever filling and refilling every post with the same statements this don´t make a consensus and not even a majoriti agreement. It only means what some managers have a lot of time to spend in the web and a huge need for attention. But you cannot think those managers are the only one or the most importants in the game just cause they are ever posting (the same things) and the rest of us are posting only one or two times our ideas.

 

This is my opinion. I think deserves respect. And i respect the mates who support the entire list of changes and the mates who desagrees with every change. Anyway you have the control and is your game. I love the sparring and coaching changes; I hate the maintenance and injuries changes. But i still love the game and i´ll keep around looking for inteeresting bouts for my fighters.

[Face Kicker]

I really love sparring and coach class new mode.

 

I´ve posting suporting and asking for this kind of changes and a lot of managers complain with me for this but now is up and is a very good change for the bettermen of the game.

 

Anyway I don´t agree with "nobody came up with a better idea in the full two years that training changes have been discussed". Me and more managers said a lot of times what making the game ultrarealistic (I mean the injuries and maintenance stuff) could make the game less funny.

 

There is one little reasson why you may think "nobody says nothing better". Is cause some little group of managers are ever posting the same topics over and over praying for the same ultrarealistic stuff. We all know whom and whom is ever in the forums saying ever the same words. But even so if some managers are ever filling and refilling every post with the same statements this don´t make a consensus and not even a majoriti agreement. It only means what some managers have a lot of time to spend in the web and a huge need for attention. But you cannot think those managers are the only one or the most importants in the game just cause they are ever posting (the same things) and the rest of us are posting only one or two times our ideas.

 

This is my opinion. I think deserves respect. And i respect the mates who support the entire list of changes and the mates who desagrees with every change. Anyway you have the control and is your game. I love the sparring and coaching changes; I hate the maintenance and injuries changes. But i still love the game and i´ll keep around looking for inteeresting bouts for my fighters.

 

you do understand that without maintenance there would be a lot of insanely powerful fighters, completely out of the scope of reality, right? there are already double-elite fighters, and without maintenance it's only a matter of time before we would see triple elites and possibly even quad elites. you can't name a single fighter in the world that's actually elite at more than one thing.

 

also note that injuries were always a part of the plan. hence why there's the option to get a boost to the injury hidden upon fighter creation. doctors/psychologists are going to be implemented at some point in time, so you don't have to worry that your fighters that get injured a lot will end up being useless after 20-30 fights.

[MMATycoon]

DaveBarrera, I've got no problem with people disliking something but then there has to be a reasonable alternative put forwards too, if something needs to be done.

[Paradigm]

you do understand that without maintenance there would be a lot of insanely powerful fighters, completely out of the scope of reality, right? there are already double-elite fighters, and without maintenance it's only a matter of time before we would see triple elites and possibly even quad elites. you can't name a single fighter in the world that's actually elite at more than one thing.

 

i think its pretty obvious he's not concerned about reality.

 

i guess it really depends on what this game is supposed to be...is it an MMA sim or an MMA game designed to attract the largest player base possible?

[jory]

What would be the fun in having every fighter basically being an impossibly good fighter across all skills? It's one thing if it was a rare occurrence but there's no way to implement that in a fair way. As it is, there's no challenge or thought process to fighter builds because it's basically like you're going down a checklist as it currently is. Oh, boxing is elite? Time to max out subs. And so on.

 

If anything lower/mid level orgs offer the most realistic picture of MMA because fighters haven't had the time to hit the stat levels of the upper tier guys. The problem is they're only specializing along the way. Stat maintenance and decay, opposing primaries, and similar changes are good steps towards the bland everyone is the same sensational across people are at now.

 

I will continue to beat my pet dead horse that I suspect the cap is too high. The positive side is Mike can tweak that along the way if he feels the other changes don't keep skill levels in check.

[Paradigm]

What would be the fun in having every fighter basically being an impossibly good fighter across all skills?

 

its probably the same people who mod games like Call of Duty so they can cheat and go 90-3 by using hacks...most likely kids. cheating takes away the thrill of the accomplishment (except maybe steroids).

[ringfinger]

What would be the fun in having every fighter basically being an impossibly good fighter across all skills? It's one thing if it was a rare occurrence but there's no way to implement that in a fair way. As it is, there's no challenge or thought process to fighter builds because it's basically like you're going down a checklist as it currently is. Oh, boxing is elite? Time to max out subs. And so on.

 

If anything lower/mid level orgs offer the most realistic picture of MMA because fighters haven't had the time to hit the stat levels of the upper tier guys. The problem is they're only specializing along the way. Stat maintenance and decay, opposing primaries, and similar changes are good steps towards the bland everyone is the same sensational across people are at now.

 

I will continue to beat my pet dead horse that I suspect the cap is too high. The positive side is Mike can tweak that along the way if he feels the other changes don't keep skill levels in check.

 

Yeah, now that I finally have a few guys with remarkable-ish stats across the board the match ups get a bit more boring... Sliders and hiddens keep it interesting enough, but I prefer more clear advantages and disadvantages now and then.

[Guest]

There are more way to keep all fighters from maxing out skills besides declining due to inactivity. Slowing training down is one way and at least you do not lose what you already have. Same effect just less tedious work.

 

I have an idea and a concern i would like to mention. They kinda involve the same subject. Before with everyone being master of all skills there was still a big problem with cherry pickers. They take over the top manager spots. We all know who they are. The guys whose worst fighter is to good for any org and they only do super fights (if its interesting!). So when fighters are forced to represent 1 style or two and have strength and weakness'. Cherry picking will be at an all time high. Before a bad match up might just be size and a pop or two in 1 skill. Now its going to be size, and with style priority the skill gap can be huge. Which of course is why the changes are being made. But with the slow rate at which you can improve from fight to fight. There will be styles that will be impossible to beat. A remarkable boxer with sensational wrestling and a brown belt should be a nightmare for Elite boxer with remarkable wrestling and proficient level purple belt all things being equal. There is little you can do in 2-3 weeks to give yourself any better of a chance. So more often than before people will avoid those match ups.

 

 

Here is what i propose. We already have to pick a primary focus for our fighter to determine his style. Why not also have a choice to pick a focus for each fight. Nothing major. But say each fight you can take 2 pops from a skill or two and add them to another area. In the example above the boxer would ba able to take 2 pops from his Elite boxing and put both points in wrestling or 1 in wrestling and 1 in BJJ. His opponents would have the same option. Does he want to make his striking even worse to make his ground game better or strength his stand up. This extends game planning into the training process not just sliders. You will no longer be doomed vs some styles. You have a fighting chance. Also forgot to mention that the boost and decline will equally effect secondaries and all skills go back to normal after each fight.

[j666]

There are more way to keep all fighters from maxing out skills besides declining due to inactivity. Slowing training down is one way and at least you do not lose what you already have. Same effect just less tedious work.

 

I have an idea and a concern i would like to mention. They kinda involve the same subject. Before with everyone being master of all skills there was still a big problem with cherry pickers. They take over the top manager spots. We all know who they are. The guys whose worst fighter is to good for any org and they only do super fights (if its interesting!). So when fighters are forced to represent 1 style or two and have strength and weakness'. Cherry picking will be at an all time high. Before a bad match up might just be size and a pop or two in 1 skill. Now its going to be size, and with style priority the skill gap can be huge. Which of course is why the changes are being made. But with the slow rate at which you can improve from fight to fight. There will be styles that will be impossible to beat. A remarkable boxer with sensational wrestling and a brown belt should be a nightmare for Elite boxer with remarkable wrestling and proficient level purple belt all things being equal. There is little you can do in 2-3 weeks to give yourself any better of a chance. So more often than before people will avoid those match ups.

 

 

Here is what i propose. We already have to pick a primary focus for our fighter to determine his style. Why not also have a choice to pick a focus for each fight. Nothing major. But say each fight you can take 2 pops from a skill or two and add them to another area. In the example above the boxer would ba able to take 2 pops from his Elite boxing and put both points in wrestling or 1 in wrestling and 1 in BJJ. His opponents would have the same option. Does he want to make his striking even worse to make his ground game better or strength his stand up. This extends game planning into the training process not just sliders. You will no longer be doomed vs some styles. You have a fighting chance. Also forgot to mention that the boost and decline will equally effect secondaries and all skills go back to normal after each fight.

i think this is a bad idea. i get ur first part of the post and i do think it's a legit concern. maybe something we'll have to deal with once we get to the point where it's serious but to be able to straight up switch pops just seems to...xbox to me. i mean, why train? just give everyone an alotted amount of points that they can switch around at their leisure to accommodate their gameplan? we could have experience points gained thru fighting and then that gives us more allocatable skill points? see? sounds kinda cheesy.

 

i'm not attacking you or flaming...i'm just yapping. lol.

[Guest]

i think this is a bad idea. i get ur first part of the post and i do think it's a legit concern. maybe something we'll have to deal with once we get to the point where it's serious but to be able to straight up switch pops just seems to...xbox to me. i mean, why train? just give everyone an alotted amount of points that they can switch around at their leisure to accommodate their gameplan? we could have experience points gained thru fighting and then that gives us more allocatable skill points? see? sounds kinda cheesy.

 

i'm not attacking you or flaming...i'm just yapping. lol.

 

 

re-allotting of all points in unrealistic. Changing training focus so their is an effect each fight is realistic. You see Lil Nog stuff Phil Davis takdowns? You think his wrestling was always that good? You think he is training his takedown defense like that to fight Franklin? He is back focus on boxing and BJJ and his wrestling will go back to where it was. My idea was very realistic and your counter isn't at all.

[j666]

re-allotting of all points in unrealistic. Changing training focus so their is an effect each fight is realistic. You see Lil Nog stuff Phil Davis takdowns? You think his wrestling was always that good? You think he is training his takedown defense like that to fight Franklin? He is back focus on boxing and BJJ and his wrestling will go back to where it was. My idea was very realistic and your counter isn't at all.

all i said was "i think this is a bad idea." jeez...get so huffy about it.

 

it wasn't a counter. it was an exaggeration of your idea to show you how much farther we could go. lol

 

here's my idea of a counter:

 

u know what's realistic? the fact that they all trained for that...not their trainers or managers clicking their fingers and making them better at it. THAT'S realistic.