Ticker Replacements

[Guest]

I like the tickers and I think it should be left alone.

[762x39]

I'd like combinations stat only if it increases the accuracy of striking combinations. Striking combinations are unbelievably inaccurate, so if this would be a way to fix that, I'm all for it but otherwise, it'd be extremely useless as combinations are so inaccurate, you hardly see a fight where they're more effective than just throwing single strikes.

 

Also, I like the idea of splitting up defensive grappling, but as far as a clinch stat goes, I'd love to see a clinch form of striking defense and have the original striking defense being just for stand up. Then you would need clinchwork for control and clinch striking defense to defend the knees and elbows. It makes more sense to me and it gives strikers on more thing to worry about on the mat and one more thing to worry about in the clinch. When all is said and done this will even out striking, clinch and ground much more.

 

So my thoughts are to change defensive grappling and make it a sub defense and a positional defense stat for ground, and to also make the clinchwork stat clinch control and add a clinch striking defense. As far as I can see this gives pure kickboxers with takedown defense something to actually worry about when being in a bad situation such as on the ground or in the clinch.

You are right on the combos I am never over 10% on them. Any more and you miss so many there is no point. Even at 10% you still miss more than you hit. I feel the the clinch works as is, but I am all for any slider change/add, that will make the game better. I just dont want all the striker guys to feel left out or screwed if all he adds is ground sliders. That will just add to more problems. But it sounds like most like the idea a lot better of adding 2 sliders and then a skill cap, then cutting skills we already have. I know I do.

[jacky67]

So if people like that idea, what would the skills be? Split defensive grappling into sub defense and ground control / positioning?

 

Another option would be the addition of a new primary but that's potentially very messy. I'd always intended to add sort of "bonus" skills like karate and judo as a specialism. So it might say has X boxing, X muay thai, x wrestling and x BJJ, with a specialism in Judo. Those would be gained by doing seminars at gyms.

 

So yeah, that's why I don't want to do primaries but I would like to do secondaries. What would people like / is that a goer?

 

 

If you add two more skills for ground and clinchwork then it mean ground fighter will need to learn two more skills so i'm not sure if it will help.

 

And the actual skills like submission, knee or elbows will be less powerful.

 

What about insteat a 80% cap. A cap but where only skills over remarkable count. or a cap that allow you to have let's say 3*elite skills 5*sensational , 4* exceptional...

[SteelPenn]

I feel we should not add more skills until the ones we have are fixed. I still stand on, a Elite wrestler with Elite takedowns should 9 out of 10 times get the takedowns and in this game my elite wrestlers get stuff all the time by must lesser wrestlers and this kills me to no end.

 

How can we add two more ground training classes to ground fighters when the game to me, still favors stand up fighters. Between getting the takedown and not getting stood up the ground game sucks.

[Bowser]

I think since so few people use elbows and knees for their points that everyone will just let them go by the wayside and just pop those points into the 2 new ground skills. A solution could be possibly making elbows and knees make a bigger difference, in terms of damage and accuracy, if people do not have them trained up. For instance if someone has zero punches or kicks their opponents dominate with them. But on the other hand if I have wonderful elbows and my opponent has none, it still seems like a high percentage miss.

 

Just my thoughts but I think it will help with the variation of builds out there.

[minark]

I feel we should not add more skills until the ones we have are fixed. I still stand on, a Elite wrestler with Elite takedowns should 9 out of 10 times get the takedowns and in this game my elite wrestlers get stuff all the time by must lesser wrestlers and this kills me to no end.

 

How can we add two more ground training classes to ground fighters when the game to me, still favors stand up fighters. Between getting the takedown and not getting stood up the ground game sucks.

 

I think that's the point of adding 2 ground stats. To make stand up fighters spread their points out instead of just needing takedown defense and defense grappling as their only defensive stats. In turn, having to spread these out will make them compromise on whether or not to work less on one of their powerful offensive stats or sacrifice a defensive ground stat.

[SteelPenn]

I think that's the point of adding 2 ground stats. To make stand up fighters spread their points out instead of just needing takedown defense and defense grappling as their only defensive stats. In turn, having to spread these out will make them compromise on whether or not to work less on one of their powerful offensive stats or sacrifice a defensive ground stat.

That does make sense. Thank you.

[minark]

That does make sense. Thank you.

 

You're welcome. Glad I could help.

[Erik]

I think that's the point of adding 2 ground stats. To make stand up fighters spread their points out instead of just needing takedown defense and defense grappling as their only defensive stats. In turn, having to spread these out will make them compromise on whether or not to work less on one of their powerful offensive stats or sacrifice a defensive ground stat.

 

As I stated on the last page, the main issue with this is that a grappler will need the same ground stat too and the grappler is already struggling for skill points (while Strikers, as a rule, are not). There needs to be 1-2 stats a striker can go for as a nice stat that will help them win a pure striking match but that is not so strong that it becomes essential for the grappler to have it too in order to survive standing up (which is the case with Punches, Kicks, Striking Def and Clinchwork -- lacking any of those 4 cripples your guy on the feet horribly).

[minark]

As I stated on the last page, the main issue with this is that a grappler will need the same ground stat too and the grappler is already struggling for skill points (while Strikers, as a rule, are not). There needs to be 1-2 stats a striker can go for as a nice stat that will help them win a pure striking match but that is not so strong that it becomes essential for the grappler to have it too in order to survive standing up (which is the case with Punches, Kicks, Striking Def and Clinchwork -- lacking any of those 4 cripples your guy on the feet horribly).

 

That's a good point. So basically we need 2 striking based stats that affect only the offensive form of the stat and isn't needed for that specific defense.

 

Maybe split punches up into head punches and body punches and split kicks into high kicks and low kicks. Then as they get both they can experiment with sliders adjusting low kicks and head kicks or balancing out head punches and body punches.

 

It also makes the sliders for stand up similar to the takedown slider. For example, without takedowns, setting your sliders towards takedowns won't give you very good results, however when it comes to the head and body punch slider and the high and low kick slider, it doesn't matter which you are better at. It's categorized as kicks and punches so if you have sensational kicks and punches, you have sensational low kicks, high kicks, head punches or body punches. With the new system for example, you could have sensational head punch and low kicks with superb body punches and high kicks. Therefore when setting sliders, you're a bit more limited as your body punches and high kicks won't hit as well and won't have as much power.

 

This may be a terrible idea, I really don't know. Just trying to throw an idea out there and see what comes of it.

 

*EDIT* - Also, my thoughts were that we could cut the need for punches and kicks in half and put them towards their counterpart. So for example if you need approximately 100 skill points of kicks in order to effectively defend kicks well then it could now be 50 points to high kicks and 50 points to low kicks.

[bucko91]

Love the compromise of the extra skills.

 

One thing i think should be adding with clinchwork is CAGE CONTROL now i understand people hate the idea of adding another lay and pray style but fighting against a cage is a massssiveeee part of mma there is a whole new takedown environment and striking positions so feel that should have always been added.

The ground skills i do think splitting def grap into control and submission defence is a great idea as well as possible having a ground top and ground bottom game. Also probably really easy to programme would be leg locks i havent seen a single win by achillies lock or even toe hold. And Mike when you said about having like a Judo or something as an extra ONE 'hidden' Primary i think it would be really good for variance especially if this extra skill was hidden so people would have to read you script when scouting you to see if yes you have a judo hidden which could work well with the cage control skill as trips and throws mainly come from a whizzer against the cage. could even have skills like dirk said as the hidden i.e Sambo & Karate, Or even one like capoeria, Sanshou, Greco wrestling(great for clinchwork and cage control ) and you could probably find others true adding all these would be a world of pain in the ass to programme but just throwing my 2 cents in and people want variance this would give you a hell of a lot of variance!

 

Even though im fairly new and have no fighters near the top level i hated the idea of adding 2 extra levels abouve elite even if it was just elite ++++ that just sucks donkey nuts. new skills have got me excited gotta admit

[DeadlyDirk]

What if you added footwork as a new physical and made it vital to offensive striking but not as important for defensive striking and not particularly important to takedowns (Defending or attacking)

 

So that strikers would need it for striking matches but guys who are more ground based could get away without a high level in terms of at least surving on their feet. (You'd still obviously need things like Boxing, MT, striking defence, speed)

 

Maybe then they'd have to sacrifice a bit of balance or something which might make it easier for the ground guys.

[bucko91]

What if you added footwork as a new physical and made it vital to offensive striking but not as important for defensive striking and not particularly important to takedowns (Defending or attacking)

 

So that strikers would need it for striking matches but guys who are more ground based could get away without a high level in terms of at least surving on their feet. (You'd still obviously need things like Boxing, MT, striking defence, speed)

 

Maybe then they'd have to sacrifice a bit of balance or something which might make it easier for the ground guys.

 

 

But in real life footwork is vital for takedowns. being flatfooted gets you taken down a lot easier than someone who has good footwork. i know this isnt real life just saying should help more than one thing

[Guest]

OK I've slept on it and;

 

1. I don't like raising skills to 170. There are too many potential problems and it's too messy.

2. Other people don't like cutting skills.

3. People want improvements to the ground and clinch and to balance out the fight engine. That wasn't the point of the thread but it came up straight away and has dominated so it's clearly the most important thing to a lot of people.

 

So, I think the best solution is to add two more secondaries. One for ground and one for clinch, or maybe just two for ground. These would be set at 0 points. Adding 2 more skills (when we currently have 21), is conveniently roughly a 10% increase in total available skill points, so someone who has 90% skills now, will have roughly 80% total skills with two additional secondaries added.

 

We would allow people to fill those two new skills up to whatever level they want by taking points from their other skills (probably with some calculation in place to make it relative to their other skills, so a rubbish fighter couldn't add it above 100 points, just like on fighter creation).

 

We can then get this hiddens cap around 78-82% without anyone having to lose any points AND we can improve the detail of the ground game (and maybe clinch if that needs doing too).

 

So if people like that idea, what would the skills be? Split defensive grappling into sub defense and ground control / positioning?

 

Another option would be the addition of a new primary but that's potentially very messy. I'd always intended to add sort of "bonus" skills like karate and judo as a specialism. So it might say has X boxing, X muay thai, x wrestling and x BJJ, with a specialism in Judo. Those would be gained by doing seminars at gyms.

 

So yeah, that's why I don't want to do primaries but I would like to do secondaries. What would people like / is that a goer?

 

 

I like this idea a lot. Not so much the primaries, because it sounds like Mike thinks it could get messy, but the secondaries sounds good to me. My one question would be..... What about the tickers? Can we just do away with them?

[DeadlyDirk]

But in real life footwork is vital for takedowns. being flatfooted gets you taken down a lot easier than someone who has good footwork. i know this isnt real life just saying should help more than one thing

 

Yeh completely agree, I was just trying to think of something that strikers could need that grapplers wouldn't since that's what a lot of people seem to be having issues with, that was about the best I could come up with!

[bucko91]

Yeh completely agree, I was just trying to think of something that strikers could need that grapplers wouldn't since that's what a lot of people seem to be having issues with, that was about the best I could come up with!

 

 

Combinations? like linking kicks with punches or being able to set up more than 1 strike probably an even worse idea because anyone can throw more than one punch but thats about all i can think about haha

[MMATycoon]

If the ground skill we added was splitting defensive grappling into sub defense and a control based skill that affects your positional scrambles, the striker would need both of those if they were outmatched offensively. A ground specialist would want all three, sure, but it's still one extra skill that a striker needs to take some skills off. As a % of total skills, it becomes more important.

[JLP]

I like the footwork option too. Anything where another skill sink can be added to strikers that doesnt require that skill to defend it will be a positive thing imo.

[topologies]

why not just bump up the defensive capabilities whenever you have gnp or submission? its like clinchwork if you have it you have both defense and offense. so, if strikers neglect those skills grapplers will eat them alive on the ground.

[Erik]

why not just bump up the defensive capabilities whenever you have gnp or submission? its like clinchwork if you have it you have both defense and offense. so, if strikers neglect those skills grapplers will eat them alive on the ground.

 

Because then every fighter most likely winds up looking exactly the same and we all have to have the same set of skills and it's Clone Wars.

 

 

 

If the ground skill we added was splitting defensive grappling into sub defense and a control based skill that affects your positional scrambles, the striker would need both of those if they were outmatched offensively. A ground specialist would want all three, sure, but it's still one extra skill that a striker needs to take some skills off. As a % of total skills, it becomes more important.

 

While I agree with this to some extent, it still means the striker needs a smaller number of skills.

 

I think this can be resolved by either (or both would actually be valid)

 

1) Making knees/elbows more important as an offensive stat for a striker.

2) Adding a footwork secondary to do some combination of make counters to punches less common / help control when the fight goes to the clinch / make takedowns harder to land on you.

 

 

Also, Mike, while you're doing this.. maybe get rid of TDs to full mount, they're extremely annoying (and I say that as someone who benefits from them more than suffers from them).

[Guest]

I like the idea of a fighter having a random "potential cap".

 

What I'd personally like to see involved as well, is for primaries to be strictly the culmination of the secondary skills trained. Rather than spar-rats being able to train their primaries up to w/e...while largely ignoring secondaries(which makes no sense to me), Primary-training should functionally be the method of maintenance for secondary skills(no skills should pop from it) and the vehicle to deliver the temporary boosts in a broad way(for more specific temp-boosts, secondary skill training would still be best).

 

So have a hidden ceiling on primary skills(which could actually factor in the physicals that best correlate with them as well), that are properly trained up through secondary-skill training, from 75% to 80% (or wherever)...and then offer an additional 5-10% train-bonus(which should also correlate to the amount of time they have to train for their next fight) to spread around for specific fighter preparations and the like.

 

[i'm picturing Forrest Griffin, with this system. He is the fighter he will always be, at this point(his skill potential has certainly been reached). No amount of training will effectively make him any better, as a whole. However, if he spends a month working exclusively on tightening up his combinations and timing...he'd walk into his next fight with a noticeable temporary boost in his striking.]

 

 

Also, if you are adding secondary skills, I'd personally like to see scrambles/sweeps, and trips/throws.

[minark]

If the ground skill we added was splitting defensive grappling into sub defense and a control based skill that affects your positional scrambles, the striker would need both of those if they were outmatched offensively. A ground specialist would want all three, sure, but it's still one extra skill that a striker needs to take some skills off. As a % of total skills, it becomes more important.

 

I agree with Erik on this. If you're adding one for both it not only skims out the strikers percentage but it skims off the ground fighters percentage just as much. So the ground fighter still has more skill needs to be competitive.

[rac2]

so, mike, when can we expect the patch to come in? let's just be done with the tickers!

[Warwynd]

I will say with the new added skills, I went from well shit more changes to Shit improving the ground game!

 

This!

 

I think since so few people use elbows and knees for their points that everyone will just let them go by the wayside and just pop those points into the 2 new ground skills. A solution could be possibly making elbows and knees make a bigger difference, in terms of damage and accuracy, if people do not have them trained up. For instance if someone has zero punches or kicks their opponents dominate with them. But on the other hand if I have wonderful elbows and my opponent has none, it still seems like a high percentage miss.

 

Just my thoughts but I think it will help with the variation of builds out there.

 

I don't know about the majority, so I am strictly speaking for myself here, but I make good use of Knees, and Elbows in the clinch. I have done pretty good with it and I think that it helps to throw that level of variety in. If people aren't using Elbows and Knees then I think that they are making a big mistake.

 

I think that's the point of adding 2 ground stats. To make stand up fighters spread their points out instead of just needing takedown defense and defense grappling as their only defensive stats. In turn, having to spread these out will make them compromise on whether or not to work less on one of their powerful offensive stats or sacrifice a defensive ground stat.

 

Exactly... these aren't skills that the ground fighter needs so much. They are ground DEFENSIVE skills. The offensive guys on the ground will need to put some points into them for sure incase they fight another ground guy, but the Strikers will have to build those up and quick or find themselves in a world of hurt from the grapplers. This does kinda gimp me in the short run since at the lower end of the spectrum Wrestlers/Submission Artists are more effective than they are at the top levels already, but I think that this will greatly improve the effectiveness of Ground fighters at the mid to top tiers.

 

Yeh completely agree, I was just trying to think of something that strikers could need that grapplers wouldn't since that's what a lot of people seem to be having issues with, that was about the best I could come up with!

 

I like the footwork idea better than messing with clinchwork. I think that it probably should affect TD also though more so than SD though.

[Rambo]

Footwork and Sub defense seem like the only 2 secondaries worth adding. 1 more skill for the strikers and 1 more skill for the ground specialist.