soyster89 Posted July 31, 2013 Report Share Posted July 31, 2013 Mike can you confirm or not that going 100% counter td does sap your energy with missed counter tds? and that tds take more than 0.1% of your energy? Its just i noticed it in my fight tonight but its been happening an awful lot where going 100% counter td means you land a td per round and basically win the fight. Only way around it is by going 100% counter so they cannot counter TD you and well that shit just isn't fun at all. I know counter td's are there to make it fairer for the grapplers but as you alerted to you have overpowered it. Its at the stage now where the only way to stop it is going back to the counter era and even then chances are you are gonna get taken down if they have td's in there gameplan. Either turn it down or make a bigger % of energy sapped for unsuccessful tds and unsuccessful counter tds. at least give strikers a chance to keep the fight standing. http://mmatycoon.com...php?FTID=573975 http://mmatycoon.com...php?FTID=578979 http://mmatycoon.com...php?FTID=568050 Just a couple of times where the person has went 100% counter td. I am sure they are many more cases of it but the fights been stopped in the first round. It just gets frustrating knowing the only way to beat it is 100% counter and makes fights not very interesting to read. May sound like a rant because i just lost but i made it clear when i first noticed it to alliance mates just now i feel like commenting on it because its happened to me. Surprised they aren't a lot of complaints made about it. I know exactly why i lost. He went 100% counter td. I never went 100% counter. I only managed to block 6 out of 14 of the tds. Only one of which was not a counter takedown. So yeah if you can take a look into it and maybe see about making it more energy expended on going for counter td's that actually fail or some shit? Because the way it is the now they will land a counter td near enough every round no matter what the skills are. http://mmatycoon.com...php?FTID=547047 I done it against Otso when the engine first started. Apart from when people clinch you do actually land one per round sometimes two. I still lost the fight thankfully cause that would just have felt dirty if i had won. I only done it then because it was one of the first fights of the new engine. Since then i have never used the 100% counter td. maybe i should? but then it just isn't that fun of a idea to shoot for counter td's constantly. Just seems like an exploit. So, are you saying the opponents went 100% counter, or 100% counter TD? In reading the fights, they sure don't seem to be 100% countering, but very well may have their counter set to 100% grapple and 100% TD. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MMATycoon Posted July 31, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 31, 2013 Setting to any level of countering reduces your energy recovery from each move, so your energy doesn't go down, it just recovers more slowly. Now, my only issue with CTDs being overpowered at the moment... Is it that they are overpowered or that it's too hard to get up once you are on the ground? I don't think one or two CTDs per round is overpowered per-se. If it's actually getting up that's the problem, I don't want to patch CTDs, then have two things that are less than ideal, rather than just one. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 31, 2013 Report Share Posted July 31, 2013 Oh, for God's sakes, don't make it any easier to get up off the ground. At least if you do, you've got to tune down ref stand ups. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
762x39 Posted July 31, 2013 Report Share Posted July 31, 2013 Oh, for God's sakes, don't make it any easier to get up off the ground. At least if you do, you've got to tune down ref stand ups. I agree it is easy enough to force a stand up, unless you are completely outclassed on the ground. In that case you couldn't escape anyway. I do think the takedowns are a little strong. Not sure what would be best; to hit energy more for missed ones, or just make them a little harder to land? I don't see how the energy hit would work, if they are countering with takedowns and not shooting all the time. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soyster89 Posted July 31, 2013 Report Share Posted July 31, 2013 Setting to any level of countering reduces your energy recovery from each move, so your energy doesn't go down, it just recovers more slowly. Now, my only issue with CTDs being overpowered at the moment... Is it that they are overpowered or that it's too hard to get up once you are on the ground? I don't think one or two CTDs per round is overpowered per-se. If it's actually getting up that's the problem, I don't want to patch CTDs, then have two things that are less than ideal, rather than just one. People feel that the actual ability to land a TD via countering is too easy. I don't feel that's the case at all, personally. In fact, I feel the ability to choose how you counter has made fighting much more diverse. It's not just a stand up battle for every fight at higher levels now, which is great. Nor are TD's so overpowered that every fight is being decided by ground offense. Fighters should have some ability on the ground, which logically irks people with established strikers. 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
762x39 Posted July 31, 2013 Report Share Posted July 31, 2013 People feel that the actual ability to land a TD via countering is too easy. I don't feel that's the case at all, personally. In fact, I feel the ability to choose how you counter has made fighting much more diverse. It's not just a stand up battle for every fight at higher levels now, which is great. Nor are TD's so overpowered that every fight is being decided by ground offense. Fighters should have some ability on the ground, which logically irks people with established strikers. Yes it is much better than it use to be. It got to the point that ground guys couldn't win, that is why there are so many strikers. Now with the new changes my last 2 projects are ground guys again. I like that you have to plan your builds, cant just do a striker with wrestling and takedown D and keep it standing. You have to have some ground because you will be taken down at some point. I did say I think takedowns are a little strong, but I don't feel it is enough to bring on a bunch of changes. I think it is just something to watch, but not change anything yet. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duphus Posted July 31, 2013 Report Share Posted July 31, 2013 Setting to any level of countering reduces your energy recovery from each move, so your energy doesn't go down, it just recovers more slowly. Now, my only issue with CTDs being overpowered at the moment... Is it that they are overpowered or that it's too hard to get up once you are on the ground? I don't think one or two CTDs per round is overpowered per-se. If it's actually getting up that's the problem, I don't want to patch CTDs, then have two things that are less than ideal, rather than just one. Basically there is no penalty energy wise for 100% counter TD over 10% or whatever counter TD, obvious a missed counter TD should zap more energy then a missed counter strike. That is where the problem is in my opinion, there is no penalty or downfall to going 100% counter TD. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortfuse122829 Posted July 31, 2013 Report Share Posted July 31, 2013 Setting to any level of countering reduces your energy recovery from each move, so your energy doesn't go down, it just recovers more slowly. Now, my only issue with CTDs being overpowered at the moment... Is it that they are overpowered or that it's too hard to get up once you are on the ground? I don't think one or two CTDs per round is overpowered per-se. If it's actually getting up that's the problem, I don't want to patch CTDs, then have two things that are less than ideal, rather than just one. I think the bigger issue isn't that it's too hard to get up from the ground but that the ground game (while there) is so short. So if you land a TD, 10 lines of text can be 2.5 mins of the fight. So giving up even 1 TD can a lot of times be detrimental to your chances at winning a decision. It'd be nicer to see the ground game expanded IMO, making the rounds longer and easier for the striker to get the fight back to the feet and still have time to score points to try to win the round back 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortfuse122829 Posted July 31, 2013 Report Share Posted July 31, 2013 Basically there is no penalty energy wise for 100% counter TD over 10% or whatever counter TD, obvious a missed counter TD should zap more energy then a missed counter strike. That is where the problem is in my opinion, there is no penalty or downfall to going 100% counter TD. That's still running under the assumption that such a thing exists as a "missed counter TD" when i do not believe it does. There is no such thing as a missed counter strike or missed counter TD, just missed counter "opportunities" as soyster mentioned earlier. That is of course just my opinion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtieBanks Posted July 31, 2013 Report Share Posted July 31, 2013 People feel that the actual ability to land a TD via countering is too easy. I don't feel that's the case at all, personally. In fact, I feel the ability to choose how you counter has made fighting much more diverse. It's not just a stand up battle for every fight at higher levels now, which is great. Nor are TD's so overpowered that every fight is being decided by ground offense. Fighters should have some ability on the ground, which logically irks people with established strikers. go 100% counter td. 60-70% counter and 65%-75% acc. Its what i did with Crassus. I landed a TD near enough every round against Otso. Who clearly had the better stats primes and also i am pretty sure was acc in that fight. yet i was able to counter him and when i did it was a takedown. Works every single time unless the person goes 100% counter so you cannot counter them. So yeah it is pretty damn easy. it should zap energy. It should be treated the same if someone goes 100% damage with a swing. Because that one TD more often that not will win you that round. Even if you get the stand up. You would have to go pretty high aggro damage just to land enough shots in the time remaining to actually win the round. If you go aggro damage against someone set up with those sliders above your ass is gonna be on the mat. I had never changed Crassus counter and acc at all in any fights. Against Batts a guy with a lot weaker wrestling i landed 1 counter takedown pre changes. I landed 0 against Perry. 0 against Gambler. None of them had the wrestling etc that Otso had. In the Otso fight i landed 4 counter TD's. Thats more than prolly in total of all of Crassus fights. If that is not overpowered i really dunno what is. Worst part is that Crassus was badly gassed in the 4th round and never landed any because he barely moved and was in the clinch and the next round i was getting hit with shots again prolly down to 0 energy and landed a god damn counter td. They are only one way out of it and thats 100% counter and hope you either land a big shot or judges fuck up some how. Its pretty much gonna be the same shit over and over and over again. No diversity. If you want to win this is how. If you want to try and stop it this is how and best of all the way to stop it prolly won't work because you are so high acc and counter that you will throw 10-14 shots per round and land every single one because going counter does not give your guy a defence boost. If it does then that Danza fight takes a lot of explaining considering how high counter i was and how high damage Valentine was. No way he lands that many shots against a double elite with all elite striking. One other thing. He landed 5 counter tds to my 5 counter strikes. I was throwing 58% damage and was pretty damn heavy on the counter. How about since you helped the grapplers so much you put in a stance. How about throwing in an Anderson Silva stance. You know when you keep your hands down to block the takedown but will each a shot or two. A normal stance in which it is the same as just now or a striking stance in which you have your hands held high and block better punches but your tdd falls. Only seems fair since they are only one way really to stop the counter tds. Otherwise as above you are gonna get put flat on your back no matter what the hell you do. To answer your question Soyster Crassus was never 100% counter in any of his fights. His sliders are as above. I went 100% counter td for the Otso fight but all the rest of his sliders remained the same. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poraan Posted July 31, 2013 Report Share Posted July 31, 2013 I think the bigger issue isn't that it's too hard to get up from the ground but that the ground game (while there) is so short. So if you land a TD, 10 lines of text can be 2.5 mins of the fight. So giving up even 1 TD can a lot of times be detrimental to your chances at winning a decision. It'd be nicer to see the ground game expanded IMO, making the rounds longer and easier for the striker to get the fight back to the feet and still have time to score points to try to win the round back http://www.mmatycoon.com/images/fight/3.gif That's three minutes gone in the round. Valentine wants to control but Takala postures up. Takala slows the pace down. Valentine is looking to reverse the position. http://www.mmatycoon.com/images/fight/4.gif That's four minutes gone in the round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goatacre Posted July 31, 2013 Report Share Posted July 31, 2013 I can't quote as I'm on my phone (or am too dim to work out how to): PBR - you've completely missed the point re whether the commentator is 100% accurate in his calling of each round. Of course there are times when SFF and FFD kick in when it turns out one or more of the judges were scoring the fight differently. That's because we know for a fact the judges' scoring is programmed not to be perfect. What has NOT ever been confirmed or denied, afaik, is whether the commentator always gets it right. As I've written above, my assumption until Mike says his piece is that the commentator is always right because, amongst other things, if that wasn't the case then SFF and FFD would have a knock-on impact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goatacre Posted July 31, 2013 Report Share Posted July 31, 2013 Mike - the issue is definitely that succeeding with the CTD is over-powered, certainly when compared with counter strikes. Escaping isn't a problem and doesn't need enhancing. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mystery Posted July 31, 2013 Report Share Posted July 31, 2013 Personally I don't think counter takedowns itself is over-powered at all, counter takedowns always were and always will be successful a higher percentage of time than shoot takedowns in rl as an example. But I do think that the calculations for getting counter takedowns needs to be changed a little, in the fact that fighters can be very successful atm at getting counter takedowns with very little takedown skill, that's what needs to be changed imo. Make the takedown skill a higher percentage of the equation for success. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 31, 2013 Report Share Posted July 31, 2013 Oh, for God's sakes, don't make it any easier to get up off the ground. At least if you do, you've got to tune down ref stand ups. Ref standups should be fixed, sure, but Escapes are dogshit right now.. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBR Posted July 31, 2013 Report Share Posted July 31, 2013 I had never changed Crassus counter and acc at all in any fights. Against Batts a guy with a lot weaker wrestling i landed 1 counter takedown pre changes. I landed 0 against Perry. 0 against Gambler. None of them had the wrestling etc that Otso had. In the Otso fight i landed 4 counter TD's. Thats more than prolly in total of all of Crassus fights. If that is not overpowered i really dunno what is. Worst part is that Crassus was badly gassed in the 4th round and never landed any because he barely moved and was in the clinch and the next round i was getting hit with shots again prolly down to 0 energy and landed a god damn counter td. well this could be taken as takedowns were weak before -- you state against those 3 wrestlers prechange you landed nothing and had the much better wrestling -- that to me shows takedowns were very weak -- not saying they arent overpowered now cause honestly i only have couple fighters that even use takedowns because of them being so weak for such a long time i quit making ground guys -- yes they are having success now but im not sure it overwhelming success -- but at same time i havent gone 100 counter 100 takedown either -- actually dont think i have went below 60 counter much at all -- these are my two ground guys that have tried and used counter takedowns http://www.mmatycoon.com/fighterprofilemanager.php?FID=16218 and http://www.mmatycoon.com/fighterprofilemanager.php?FID=63718 -- they only started using ground game since these changes cause it sucked so bad before -- maybe take a look at the 100 counter like was done before Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtieBanks Posted July 31, 2013 Report Share Posted July 31, 2013 well this could be taken as takedowns were weak before -- you state against those 3 wrestlers prechange you landed nothing and had the much better wrestling -- that to me shows takedowns were very weak -- not saying they arent overpowered now cause honestly i only have couple fighters that even use takedowns because of them being so weak for such a long time i quit making ground guys -- yes they are having success now but im not sure it overwhelming success -- but at same time i havent gone 100 counter 100 takedown either -- actually dont think i have went below 60 counter much at all -- these are my two ground guys that have tried and used counter takedowns http://www.mmatycoon...r.php?FID=16218 and http://www.mmatycoon...r.php?FID=63718 -- they only started using ground game since these changes cause it sucked so bad before -- maybe take a look at the 100 counter like was done before He got his takedowns though. He just didn't land any counter tds. I mean he landed around about 50% of his TD's on average. When i switched to counter td's i never landed any that wasn't a counter td. I found them harder to get actually. Womba is the only guy i know who gets them still regularly just shooting them. Kelly's rise started before counter tds and isn't the reason for her success. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soyster89 Posted August 1, 2013 Report Share Posted August 1, 2013 go 100% counter td. 60-70% counter and 65%-75% acc. Its what i did with Crassus. I landed a TD near enough every round against Otso. Who clearly had the better stats primes and also i am pretty sure was acc in that fight. yet i was able to counter him and when i did it was a takedown. Works every single time unless the person goes 100% counter so you cannot counter them. So yeah it is pretty damn easy. it should zap energy. It should be treated the same if someone goes 100% damage with a swing. Because that one TD more often that not will win you that round. Even if you get the stand up. You would have to go pretty high aggro damage just to land enough shots in the time remaining to actually win the round. If you go aggro damage against someone set up with those sliders above your ass is gonna be on the mat. I had never changed Crassus counter and acc at all in any fights. Against Batts a guy with a lot weaker wrestling i landed 1 counter takedown pre changes. I landed 0 against Perry. 0 against Gambler. None of them had the wrestling etc that Otso had. In the Otso fight i landed 4 counter TD's. Thats more than prolly in total of all of Crassus fights. If that is not overpowered i really dunno what is. Worst part is that Crassus was badly gassed in the 4th round and never landed any because he barely moved and was in the clinch and the next round i was getting hit with shots again prolly down to 0 energy and landed a god damn counter td. They are only one way out of it and thats 100% counter and hope you either land a big shot or judges fuck up some how. Its pretty much gonna be the same shit over and over and over again. No diversity. If you want to win this is how. If you want to try and stop it this is how and best of all the way to stop it prolly won't work because you are so high acc and counter that you will throw 10-14 shots per round and land every single one because going counter does not give your guy a defence boost. If it does then that Danza fight takes a lot of explaining considering how high counter i was and how high damage Valentine was. No way he lands that many shots against a double elite with all elite striking. One other thing. He landed 5 counter tds to my 5 counter strikes. I was throwing 58% damage and was pretty damn heavy on the counter. How about since you helped the grapplers so much you put in a stance. How about throwing in an Anderson Silva stance. You know when you keep your hands down to block the takedown but will each a shot or two. A normal stance in which it is the same as just now or a striking stance in which you have your hands held high and block better punches but your tdd falls. Only seems fair since they are only one way really to stop the counter tds. Otherwise as above you are gonna get put flat on your back no matter what the hell you do. To answer your question Soyster Crassus was never 100% counter in any of his fights. His sliders are as above. I went 100% counter td for the Otso fight but all the rest of his sliders remained the same. That's the thing, Dinooo - you and I are looking at this differently. You feel fighters shouldn't be able to counter a missed strike into a TD at the "rate" they can cuurrently, and I look at it as they absolutely should be if thier gameplan is geared towards taking the fight to the ground. That's the key - we now have a chance to gameplan again. There are things you can do to counter these "counter TD spammers" for sure, one of which is to establish a ground game for your fighter. If I have a wrestler and am booked to fight a stand up guy who I feel has the cookie-cutter striker build from engines past (primary skills, TD Def, Def Grap, and Transitions) then you damn right I'll stay back and try and score a TD. But if I'm fighting a ground specialist - let's use the Womba example you used earlier - then I may not use counter TDs at all and will choose to try and strike. If anything, I agree that perhaps there should be an adjusted energy drain for countering or something - or maybe a more severe reduction in energy recovery while countering since Mike stated there's no drain persay, but a reduced recovery. But please don't change things with TDs and eliminate a additional strategy that's been sorely missing for a long time. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soyster89 Posted August 1, 2013 Report Share Posted August 1, 2013 go 100% counter td. 60-70% counter and 65%-75% acc. Its what i did with Crassus. I landed a TD near enough every round against Otso. Who clearly had the better stats primes and also i am pretty sure was acc in that fight. yet i was able to counter him and when i did it was a takedown. Works every single time unless the person goes 100% counter so you cannot counter them. So yeah it is pretty damn easy. To answer your question Soyster Crassus was never 100% counter in any of his fights. His sliders are as above. I went 100% counter td for the Otso fight but all the rest of his sliders remained the same. One last thing I'll add, Dinooo - Crassus lost that fight against Otso. He also lost rounds 1 and 5 when Crassus actually scored a counter TD. So my point is, if your gameplan is to use the sliders you explained above, then understand that you risk losing a fight since you do no damage with your strikes and may not do enough on the ground - if you even get the fight there (see rds 3 and 4). 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtieBanks Posted August 1, 2013 Report Share Posted August 1, 2013 One last thing I'll add, Dinooo - Crassus lost that fight against Otso. He also lost rounds 1 and 5 when Crassus actually scored a counter TD. So my point is, if your gameplan is to use the sliders you explained above, then understand that you risk losing a fight since you do no damage with your strikes and may not do enough on the ground - if you even get the fight there (see rds 3 and 4). Reason he lost it was because Otso was also a ground guy. Black Belt and Elite wrestling. Opa outslidered me on the ground on that occassion. Most of Crassus fights, Crassus gets it there and keeps it there for the round. If he doesn't he loses. If he does then he wins. Otso went aggro acc against Crassus. I threw the same against a stand up striker, your guy actually Batts and beat him in a round which it stayed standing. In that round i landed 4-5 counter strikes. If i had counter takedowns Batts would have been on his ass. Then straight away in the second round i landed a counter. Batts would have been on his ass. Midway through the first round in the third. Batts would have been on his ass and again in the 4th round one minute in. Different fights lead to different results yes. Thing is not everyone is Otso. The new shit in the game was to make fights not look like clones and to make the fighters more diverse. Gale when he beat me did not beat me on the ground. He beat me because he got me there and held me there. If he never gets the TD into side control it was stood up in 1-2mins because of HIS lack of grappling not mine. Lay and pray at its finest. I ain't complaining about that. I am complaining because its pretty much unstoppable. It means we will get clones. Everyone will want enough stand up game to not get cracked instantly and die but enough to get the counter tds. Its the most over powered thing since the counter era and soon everyone will be doing it. Game will become as diverse as a KKK meeting. 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 2, 2013 Report Share Posted August 2, 2013 I like the counter takedowns, as i think they balanced things out a bit. With that said, i do think Striking Defense and Boxing/MT should play a bigger role in scoring a counter takedown, as ducking a punch, catching a kick and so on all require a bit of understanding about the standup. Not that it would be impossible for a good wrestler to takedown an excellent striker that way, but the chances could be lower. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soyster89 Posted August 2, 2013 Report Share Posted August 2, 2013 Reason he lost it was because Otso was also a ground guy. Black Belt and Elite wrestling. Opa outslidered me on the ground on that occassion. Most of Crassus fights, Crassus gets it there and keeps it there for the round. If he doesn't he loses. If he does then he wins. Otso went aggro acc against Crassus. I threw the same against a stand up striker, your guy actually Batts and beat him in a round which it stayed standing. In that round i landed 4-5 counter strikes. If i had counter takedowns Batts would have been on his ass. Then straight away in the second round i landed a counter. Batts would have been on his ass. Midway through the first round in the third. Batts would have been on his ass and again in the 4th round one minute in. Different fights lead to different results yes. Thing is not everyone is Otso. The new shit in the game was to make fights not look like clones and to make the fighters more diverse. Gale when he beat me did not beat me on the ground. He beat me because he got me there and held me there. If he never gets the TD into side control it was stood up in 1-2mins because of HIS lack of grappling not mine. Lay and pray at its finest. I ain't complaining about that. I am complaining because its pretty much unstoppable. It means we will get clones. Everyone will want enough stand up game to not get cracked instantly and die but enough to get the counter tds. Its the most over powered thing since the counter era and soon everyone will be doing it. Game will become as diverse as a KKK meeting. Like I said, you continue to make my point for me. If people want to avoid being taken down and getting destroyed they will add an element of wrestling or BJJ to thier fighters. I know not every fighter is Otso, but Otso is an example. The point is, counter TDs themselves aren't the issue. The fact that most fighters don't have a ground game is. As soon as "everyone will be doing it" as you say they will, then people will adapt to that as well. We're seeing a change in the game, and striker builds from the previous era aren't as successful because now there's a viable option for another gameplan. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LanceTempleton Posted August 2, 2013 Report Share Posted August 2, 2013 Like I said, you continue to make my point for me. If people want to avoid being taken down and getting destroyed they will add an element of wrestling or BJJ to thier fighters. I know not every fighter is Otso, but Otso is an example. The point is, counter TDs themselves aren't the issue. The fact that most fighters don't have a ground game is. As soon as "everyone will be doing it" as you say they will, then people will adapt to that as well. We're seeing a change in the game, and striker builds from the previous era aren't as successful because now there's a viable option for another gameplan. Way off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soyster89 Posted August 2, 2013 Report Share Posted August 2, 2013 Way off. How so? Show me an example of a wrestler or BJJ guy who's lost becuase of counter TDs. You guys act like this is the same as TD into mount. That actually ended fights. Counter TDs simply get the fight to the ground. I will happily change my mind if someone can show me an example where it was truly messed up. Every example given thus far shows a wrestler beating a striker becuase he took them down over and over. I'm all for correcting a glitch, bit I haven't seen a glitch yet. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 2, 2013 Report Share Posted August 2, 2013 Oh okay then, so people hitting counter takedowns in the beginning of every round on people as low as 95% counter isn't a problem because you can still fight them on the ground. Okay. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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