Re-doing fight scoring - Official Discussion

[Timmy]

Could the crowd have a role in influencing judges? Maybe a small bonus to the more popular fighter?

Maybe some judges are more easily influenced by this than others (judge hidden)?

 

Judges with individual preferences and habits is a great idea, but keep them randomly assigned please. Perhaps orgs could issue guidelines for judges to follow (and every judge has a hidden for how how much they follow this advice) but allowing orgs to hand-pick judges or set binding rules that can decide a fight is a very bad idea IMO.

[Mentor]

Could the crowd have a role in influencing judges? Maybe a small bonus to the more popular fighter?

 

That will favor the fighters which are already on top

[minark]

 

That will favor the fighters which are already on top

Unfortunately in real life that's pretty realistic. Lol.

[Timmy]

Unfortunately in real life that's pretty realistic. Lol.

 

Thats true and makes the idea pass the "reality test" but my reasoning was that, as Mike is re-doing the whole thing, he could tie popularity (which is generated in fights after all) to whichever tactics are the most risky under the new regime, thus rewarding aggression, damage, flair or showmanship in a way that complements the new engine. In other words, a way to reward fighters who are entertaining under the new engine, compared to those playing it safe. It is a small advantage, but it has to be earned. If the engine is being re-done, its the best time to tweak the effects of the popularity hidden to make it more meaningfull. If he wants to that is

[dbsh209]

Judges are not set out by organisations, they are set out by commissions and organisations have absolutely nothing to do with their selection. Let's keep it that way please.

 

I'm up for judges being unique, but let's make the probability of a biased judge to be really low, so it does not affect the general game play.

 

I do not have much experience with the scoring, so I cannot be of more help, however, from what I have read the only major change needs to be the redoing of the ground game.

[Mentor]

Judges are not set out by organisations, they are set out by commissions and organisations have absolutely nothing to do with their selection. Let's keep it that way please.

 

I'm up for judges being unique, but let's make the probability of a biased judge to be really low, so it does not affect the general game play.

 

I do not have much experience with the scoring, so I cannot be of more help, however, from what I have read the only major change needs to be the redoing of the ground game.

 

We do not have commissions in this game, we have orgs which set a lot of the rules. Also not all countries even have commissions. It is a per nation base. In some countries or even states you can set whatever rules you want!

 

An org can choose how many rounds, how long those rounds will be, if the fight will be just stand up or MMA, we can also decide if the fight will be judged as a whole or by rounds. So why not give the orgs more of a say on HOW those rounds will be scored? It is my damn org, so why can't i decide on the rules?

 

I am ok with the popularity suggestion as yet another "option". I also think orgs should have more of a say in things which are common in MMA. For example. Why not create some rules which will basically allow orgs to run "Boxing or Grappling" orgs? Some orgs even have certain slider "rules" for boxing, grappling, but they can be abused. If they can "pre-determine" certain sliders, they can technically make Grappling of Boxing orgs. We already have K-T rules, so why not the rest?

 

Anyway, i rather more power to the players and less to Artificial Intelligence. Custom made rules will give us that and this will end up being an enhancement

[Timmy]

Mentor, your idea is reasonably put but I think it's terrible. Its completely selfish thinking but I don't want orgs to decide judging criteria or who the judges are. It will end up with me stuck in in some contract at an org that's been taken over by some idiot who has changed the scoring rules to something stupid that I didnt sign up for. Worse, as you propose it, someone will, sooner or later, use it to fix fights in favour of themselves, their multis, or their pals. That is what will happen.

And there is a de facto Tycoon Commission. They are the universal judging rules Mike sets.

[Mentor]

Mentor, your idea is reasonably put but I think it's terrible. Its completely selfish thinking but I don't want orgs to decide judging criteria or who the judges are. It will end up with me stuck in in some contract at an org that's been taken over by some idiot who has changed the scoring rules to something stupid that I didnt sign up for. Worse, as you propose it, someone will, sooner or later, use it to fix fights in favour of themselves, their multis, or their pals. That is what will happen.

And there is a de facto Tycoon Commission. They are the universal judging rules Mike sets.

 

How long do orgs which book fights to themselves or their pals favor survive? Usually not very long. If an org owner changes, you are always at a risk of getting some idiot, so this has little to do with it. For example If he books you against a monster you cannot beat, the rules wont matter anyway.

 

Fighters are NEVER at the mercy of an org, it is always the other way round. The most an org can do is keep you from leaving, but that is something unrelated to the rule changing. So if someone makes MASSIVE rule changes, you can protest. If he does nothing, you can reject fights, wait for inactivity or contract expiry. In short he cannot force you to fight on rules you do not agree to.

 

Where as if Mike makes some change now, EVERYONE will be affected by it and nobody will be able to do anything about it. I am totally against giving the ground game or takedown's and serious love. I like how striking is given an advantage because i like striking. I want to see finishes, not a bunch of men cuddling up and rolling on the floor. So if such a change is implemented, i wont be able to do anything about the way my org rates fights and that is not good because it is my org.

 

I rather it stays the same or we are given an option.

[gwad12345]

I'm just not convinced these changes to scoring are necessary. I agree there should be some engine changes to address takedown spammers and sub spammers etc but I dont see how the scoring is going to improve by giving more points to weak and even failed shots. I think judging based on damage is the best possible system. Yea it will piss people off when the outstrike their opponent by 20+ strikes every round and lose but they are idiots for going 90% accuracy...

[LanceTempleton]

http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/news/443871/New-MMA-judging-system-shows-promise/?utm_source=emb&utm_medium=new-mma-judging-system&utm_campaign=ug

[soyster89]

http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/news/443871/New-MMA-judging-system-shows-promise/?utm_source=emb&utm_medium=new-mma-judging-system&utm_campaign=ug

 

Spot on. Discussion over.

[KawasakiRamenBlitz]

I'm just not convinced these changes to scoring are necessary. I agree there should be some engine changes to address takedown spammers and sub spammers etc but I dont see how the scoring is going to improve by giving more points to weak and even failed shots. I think judging based on damage is the best possible system. Yea it will piss people off when the outstrike their opponent by 20+ strikes every round and lose but they are idiots for going 90% accuracy...

 

I agree with this statement. I am not as experienced as a lot of the vets here, but personally I am not sure replacing the entire system is better than tweaking and overhauling the existing one.

 

Essentially, no matter what you do, you'll never be able to come up with a perfect system. It's scientifically impossible.

The current system has a few flaws that have been nicely pointed out here, but they can be worked on and it's not like outcomes are drastically unrealistic on a constant level. If you do, however, implement an entirely new system, you'll also implement new, unforeseen issues instead of refining the current one.

 

And at the end of the day, no matter what the system is, people should always be encouraged to not fight for decisions. A damage favouring system actually does that quite nicely.

[Mentor]

http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/news/443871/New-MMA-judging-system-shows-promise/?utm_source=emb&utm_medium=new-mma-judging-system&utm_campaign=ug

 

Lance has it spot on. The current real life way fights is scored is flawed in the eyes of the fan. Fights are "scored" not on who came closer to winning a fight, but more similar to how we are trying to do (ie, score a fight based on total strikes, takedowns, submission attempts etc). In the eyes of a fan, what matters? Who did the most damage and who came closest to winning. GSP fight is a perfect example. He landed the most taps, but who came closest to winning the fight against Hendrix? Every fan in the world can answer that.

 

gwad's comment is also correct. The ground game has its problems, but those problems are not related to the scoring. So lets not get the 2 mixed up.

 

Anyway, i think i got my point across. I will be extremely disappointed to see a scoring system which favors elements such as takedowns or submission attempts. To me those play very little to the end result unless you actually use those takedowns to cause significant damage OR unless you pull off a near submission which in some way caused damage as well. I could never understand why in real life they would give a round to someone simply because they got the takedown, even though the other guy beat him for the majority of the fight while standing. If such changes will be implemented, i want to be at least given the power as the org owner to tweak those rules for my own org.

 

I am sorry i have been so vocal in this discussion, just i feel very strong against making changes as proposed. If i was to score based on what Mike posted it would be like this:

 

Standing

Punch Head: Attempt (+1 base and +0.1 to +1 depending on damage slider), Successful (+3 and +0.1 to +3 depending on damage done)

Punch Body: Attempt (+0.9 base and +0.1 to +0.9 depending on damage slider), Successful (+2.7 and +0.1 to +2.7 depending on damage done)

Kick Leg: Attempt (+0.7 base and +0.1 to +0.7 depending on damage slider), Successful (+2.1 and +0.1 to +2.1 depending on damage done)

Kick Body: Attempt (+0.9 base and +0.1 to +0.9 depending on damage slider), Successful (+2.7 and +0.1 to +2.7 depending on damage done)

Kick Head: Attempt (+1.3 base and +0.1 to +1.3 depending on damage slider), Successful (+3.9 and +0.1 to +3.9 depending on damage done)

Clinch: Attempt (+0 - possibly some points for opponent), Successful (+3) (My change -1)

Takedown: Attempt (+0 - possibly some points for opponent), Successful (+4 and +0.1 to +4 depending on damage done or end position) (My change -6)

 

Clinchwork

Punch Head: Attempt (+1 base and +0.1 to +1 depending on damage slider), Successful (+3 and +0.1 to +3 depending on damage done)

Punch Body: Attempt (+0.5 base and +0.1 to +0.5 depending on damage slider), Successful (+1.5 and +0.1 to +2.1 depending on damage done)

Knee Head: Attempt (+1.3 base and +0.1 to +1.3 depending on damage slider), Successful (+3.9 and +0.1 to +3.9 depending on damage done)

Knee Body: Attempt (+1 base and +0.1 to +0.5 depending on damage slider), Successful (+3 and +0.1 to +2.7 depending on damage done)

Stall / Control: Successful (+0.5)

Break Clinch: Successful (+2)

Takedown: Attempt (+0.5), Successful (+4 and +0.1 to +4 depending on damage done) (My change -3)

Pull Guard: Attempt (0), Successful (+3)

 

Groundwork

More complex because we have 10 positions but the actions are;

GNP: Attempt (+1 base and +0.1 to +1 depending on damage slider), Successful (+3 and +0.1 to +3 depending on damage done)

Sub Attempt: Attempt (+1 to +10 depending on how close it is)

Stall / Control: Attempt (+0), Successful (+0.25)

Advance Position: Attempt (+0.3), Successful (+8) - possibly more depending on what type of advance position but this would be trickier to program.

Stand Up: Attempt (+0), Successful (+3) (My change -7)

Be in X position

Back +1 per move

Mount +1 per move

Side +0.5 per move

Guard Top +0.2 per move

 

 

I would also give attempts a 50% cut down the whole spectrum. In my book, if you are throwing and NOT landing it means you are failing and using up energy. If you try to throw a takedown and are getting stuffed, why should you get any points when you are getting gassed? Attempts = to how badly you are failing and should not be given much love at all. Control is also pretty much irrelevant as well.

[Guest]

I don't agree with giving the org owners too much control over how the fight is judged.

[Guest]

Just finish your fights and it won't be a problem.

 

#Solved.

[Mentor]

Just finish your fights and it won't be a problem.

 

#Solved.

 

Yeah, that is what i will do if this is implemented. Make it 5 round fights so that i wont have point decisions.

[SpizzEnergi]

Please don't slaughter me for this !!!!

 

I'm new to the game and don't have a clue what I'm doing... but I have a mentor who is great...

 

Could an issue be that the old timers of the game just know it too well and can look at pretty much any fighter then train and sort sliders to win? That they have systems set up which they KNOW work?

 

That aside... "styles make fights" and it would be good for matchmakers to have access to extra stats which will allow them to match more effectively, Then its up to the manager to work it out.

 

I don't have much of a clue about the game, but I know object orientated programming to an advanced level. This game is HUGELY complex... and I'd love just a little peek at some of the code to shake my head in bewilderment.

 

So my opinion (and as I said... please don't slaughter me) is that changes need to be made regularly to keep the game fresh and keep everybody on their toes... and remember guys... (maybe I'm wrong) but ultimately this site is a business and things need to be done regularly to keep it profitable.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'll sit back now and wait for a torrent of abuse....

[Guest]

I will probably get ripped for this, but I think there should also be a reward for time spent in a dominant position on the ground. Like it or not, simply being on top, especially in a position past the guard, wins you points in the eyes of the judges, even if you aren't doing much with it. I'm sure a lot of people don't want to encourage lay and pray simply they don't like to watch it, but it is a real life strategy that can win fights, even if it isn't exciting to watch.

 

As for whether we redo everything or tweak, I tend to favor tweaking. Like many have said, a brand new system could create more unforeseen problems than it fixes. As it currently stands, I think the standup is completely fine and only the ground game needs tweaking.

[aylib]

Just finish your fights and it won't be a problem.

 

#Solved.

Just Bleed Guy, I thought you were locked up?

[nandorossi]

Please don't slaughter me for this !!!!

 

I'm new to the game and don't have a clue what I'm doing... but I have a mentor who is great...

 

Could an issue be that the old timers of the game just know it too well and can look at pretty much any fighter then train and sort sliders to win? That they have systems set up which they KNOW work?

 

That aside... "styles make fights" and it would be good for matchmakers to have access to extra stats which will allow them to match more effectively, Then its up to the manager to work it out.

 

I don't have much of a clue about the game, but I know object orientated programming to an advanced level. This game is HUGELY complex... and I'd love just a little peek at some of the code to shake my head in bewilderment.

 

So my opinion (and as I said... please don't slaughter me) is that changes need to be made regularly to keep the game fresh and keep everybody on their toes... and remember guys... (maybe I'm wrong) but ultimately this site is a business and things need to be done regularly to keep it profitable.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'll sit back now and wait for a torrent of abuse....

I agree that changes need to be made regularly but not constant updates to the way scoring is done. Updates are great but scoring a fight is just that scoring a fight. Fighters are aware to a point at how scoring should be done and some take advantage of that. You cant just change the way scoring is done on a month to month baises or even a quarterly update.

[nandorossi]

I will probably get ripped for this, but I think there should also be a reward for time spent in a dominant position on the ground. Like it or not, simply being on top, especially in a position past the guard, wins you points in the eyes of the judges, even if you aren't doing much with it. I'm sure a lot of people don't want to encourage lay and pray simply they don't like to watch it, but it is a real life strategy that can win fights, even if it isn't exciting to watch.

 

As for whether we redo everything or tweak, I tend to favor tweaking. Like many have said, a brand new system could create more unforeseen problems than it fixes. As it currently stands, I think the standup is completely fine and only the ground game needs tweaking.

I agree, as much as I hate it. Greg Jackson has tought more fighters to lay and pray then fights I have watched. Its sad but its a real life stratagey that works for a lot of fighters.

[poraan]

 

 

Anyway, i think i got my point across. I will be extremely disappointed to see a scoring system which favors elements such as takedowns or submission attempts. To me those play very little to the end result unless you actually use those takedowns to cause significant damage OR unless you pull off a near submission which in some way caused damage as well. I could never understand why in real life they would give a round to someone simply because they got the takedown, even though the other guy beat him for the majority of the fight while standing. If such changes will be implemented, i want to be at least given the power as the org owner to tweak those rules for my own org.

 

 

This.

 

Less points with takedowns and standups would be great idea.

 

And increase these points little

Be in X position

Back +1 per move

Mount +1 per move

Side +0.5 per move

Guard Top +0.2 per move

IF you are on top and dont do anything you shouldnt gain a lot points..(Referee should standup )

But if you are doing you should gain more points than the guy doing same things on bottom.

[aylib]

+ on reducing the importance of takedowns towards the final outcome if the fight.

 

If they are like Nurmagomedov's ( vs Trujillo, for example, or Fitch, GSP, etc), where he takes you down, doesn't do anything meaningful with it, and either let's you get up to take you down again, or is unable to maintain the blanket position, and this goes on for 15 minutes without there being anything remotely resembling a finish- let's not reward that.

 

True, the other fighter didn't get squat done, but if meaningful aspects of the fight were rewarded, then perhaps we would see a totally different scenario play out.

[Guest]

Honestly I think the biggest problem with the current system is mostly the sub spamming... Shitty decisions will happen from time to time, and I have yet to see anything that was super questionable..

[Guest]

+ on reducing the importance of takedowns towards the final outcome if the fight.

 

If they are like Nurmagomedov's ( vs Trujillo, for example, or Fitch, GSP, etc), where he takes you down, doesn't do anything meaningful with it, and either let's you get up to take you down again, or is unable to maintain the blanket position, and this goes on for 15 minutes without there being anything remotely resembling a finish- let's not reward that.

 

True, the other fighter didn't get squat done, but if meaningful aspects of the fight were rewarded, then perhaps we would see a totally different scenario play out.

The thing is, it may be super boring to watch, but unless that the opponent can get some good worthy shots inbetween those takedowns. The person who executes them is taking the fight where he wants to and controlling it, earning the deserved victory... regardless of how boring it was.