2016-2017 NBA Discussion

[Mentor]

side note- i'm really starting to dislike james harden. on roughly half of their possessions all he does is try to draw fouls, like a bitch. he flops on offense more than ginobili flops on defense. a ton of players do it, but not to the extent that harden does it.

 

I think you will dislike him even more after his game 6 melt down vs the Spurs.

[JLP]

I know there is the persistent rumor that the NBA occasionally rigs the draft lottery. I cant help but thinking this year will add a little more fuel to the fire. Magic Johnson promised the Lakers coach that they werent going to lose their draft pick (outside of the top 3 it would have went to the sixers(not sure)). And lo and behold it ended up at #2 were they can select Lonzo Ball and make tons of money. I'm in the Ball is way overrated camp, so it isnt that big of a deal to me. Let the lakers have the bust. But its hard not to notice how those lotto balls seem to fall in a way that helps the NBA in terms of marketability and fit whenever it would really benefit the NBA or certain franchises.

 

LaVar Ball on Lonzo Ball draft choices: "That's all we working out for is the Los Angeles Lakers"

I hope it ends as bad as I think it will. Ball will be a decent rotational player (bust for a #2 pick) and his father will tear the team apart by running his mouth 24/7.

[Jacman]

I know there is the persistent rumor that the NBA occasionally rigs the draft lottery. I cant help but thinking this year will add a little more fuel to the fire. Magic Johnson promised the Lakers coach that they werent going to lose their draft pick (outside of the top 3 it would have went to the sixers(not sure)). And lo and behold it ended up at #2 were they can select Lonzo Ball and make tons of money. I'm in the Ball is way overrated camp, so it isnt that big of a deal to me. Let the lakers have the bust. But its hard not to notice how those lotto balls seem to fall in a way that helps the NBA in terms of marketability and fit whenever it would really benefit the NBA or certain franchises.

 

LaVar Ball on Lonzo Ball draft choices: "That's all we working out for is the Los Angeles Lakers"

I hope it ends as bad as I think it will. Ball will be a decent rotational player (bust for a #2 pick) and his father will tear the team apart by running his mouth 24/7.

I knew there would be some rigging but did they really have to screw the suns in the process? I'm with you on lonzo though. Offensively he's nothing special, and I still doubt his shot will be effective in the NBA. His defense is subpar and I really don't think he's interested in getting better at it and he's not a top notch athlete. Lonzos a great passer but not a franchise/all star caliber player imo.

 

Fultz has a much higher ceiling and so does Josh Jackson (hoping he slips to #4 so the suns can take him).

[Mentor]

So far the playoffs have not been too competitive, there were a few interesting games but overall the 2 favourites are beating the crap out of everyone.

 

I am a Laker fan and it seems we will be getting Ball, personally, i am not too high on high either. His shot is very weird, i cannot see that as being effective in the NBA, he is long for his position, but not particularly fast, so i am not sure how he will deal with the speed of NBA PG's. A lot is being made about his passing, but taking a #2 pick for his passing sounds ridiculous to me. The only thing we know 100% is that his dad will be a problem, the rest is a big question mark.

[Jacman]

So far the playoffs have not been too competitive, there were a few interesting games but overall the 2 favourites are beating the crap out of everyone.

 

I am a Laker fan and it seems we will be getting Ball, personally, i am not too high on high either. His shot is very weird, i cannot see that as being effective in the NBA, he is long for his position, but not particularly fast, so i am not sure how he will deal with the speed of NBA PG's. A lot is being made about his passing, but taking a #2 pick for his passing sounds ridiculous to me. The only thing we know 100% is that his dad will be a problem, the rest is a big question mark.

 

I honestly have no idea what the Lakers should do with that pick. Lonzo has big bust potential but I don't know if anyone else in the draft is a better pick or better fit for the Lakers. They could trade for Paul George but this team is far from competing, they could also sign a Gordon Hayward or trade for a Melo but do they have the cap space? Magic Johnson has a really tough job ahead of him and I'm not entirely sure he's the right man for the job.

 

I really dislike Lavar Ball but did you guys see his interview on the Herd? That shit was absolutely hilarious.

[Mentor]

If i was the Lakers, i would probably still go for Ball, he is projected as a top 3 player and being a local player who wants to join us and no clear cut option, then you go for him and hope it works. I do not know the players in the draft, so it is hard for me to say, but you do need players who want to be part of the team and have talent at the same time.

 

In free agency i would pretty much avoid going for any big names, instead i would test out some of the undrafted players, look at some of the younger talent and pick up 3-4 of them. I expect it to be at least one more season of being poor. Maybe get to 35ish wins and get another top 6-7 pick for 2018.

 

George i would wait till next year, he already said he wants to join us, so why lose assets when you will get him for free next year. Our biggest problem is Deng and Mosgov, they have 3 more years on their contracts and are currently taking up almost 50% of our cap space at the moment. The cap will go up next year, but they will still be taking up a significant chunk, but if we progress enough, get George next year, we could have enough space to pickup another all star calibre, but to me, unless we can get someone stupid to take on the contracts of those 2 useless players, i cannot see us being competitive in the next 3 years, unless at least 1 or possibly 2 of the current core of young players end up being more than i expect (ie All star calibre).

[shortfuse122829]

If i was the Lakers, i would probably still go for Ball, he is projected as a top 3 player and being a local player who wants to join us and no clear cut option, then you go for him and hope it works. I do not know the players in the draft, so it is hard for me to say, but you do need players who want to be part of the team and have talent at the same time.

 

In free agency i would pretty much avoid going for any big names, instead i would test out some of the undrafted players, look at some of the younger talent and pick up 3-4 of them. I expect it to be at least one more season of being poor. Maybe get to 35ish wins and get another top 6-7 pick for 2018.

 

George i would wait till next year, he already said he wants to join us, so why lose assets when you will get him for free next year. Our biggest problem is Deng and Mosgov, they have 3 more years on their contracts and are currently taking up almost 50% of our cap space at the moment. The cap will go up next year, but they will still be taking up a significant chunk, but if we progress enough, get George next year, we could have enough space to pickup another all star calibre, but to me, unless we can get someone stupid to take on the contracts of those 2 useless players, i cannot see us being competitive in the next 3 years, unless at least 1 or possibly 2 of the current core of young players end up being more than i expect (ie All star calibre).

 

 

If I were you guys I'd draft Ball and get a team like Brooklyn who will be willing to eat salary in exchange for draft picks or young players. Pay them w/ Houston's #28 pick or Russell to take one of those contracts off your hands. If you're drafting Ball I'm assuming Russell is expendable anyway

[shortfuse122829]

I'd kinda like to see the 76'ers trade the #3 pick for an established player and then go out and sign a PG like Lowry or Jrue Holiday. If they could pull off a deal like

 

 

76'ers give:

 

#3 pick

Dario Saric

 

76'ers get:

 

Bradley Beal or CJ McCollum

 

 

I think if you paired Lowry and Beal with Covington, SImmons & Embiid in a starting line-up we'd be a top team in the east. You'd have a decent bench too with Bayless, Henderson and Richuan Holmes and Okafor (still hoping we trade him though). You'd also still have the Laker pick next year (finally) and the Kings pick in 2019 which I think is unprotected.

 

I think both of those guys would really fit into what we need on offense. Lowry shot 42% on catch and shoot 3's this year so can play off the ball for us and Beal is a career 39.9% three point shooter. So you'd space the floor for Simmons to take his guys off the dribble and also to give Embiid to work inside w/o the double team all the time. Plus it's so hard to win with all 20 yr olds look at the T-wolves despite their talent.

 

Not sure if the other teams would really wanna part w/ those guys but the Wizards are really no match for the Cavs and don't think they have a 1st round pick this year or much cap flexibility to really put them over the top. Especially now that Wall qualified for the super max. You'd get a talented young player in Saric who can develop into a solid stretch 4 and a top 3 pick and get some cap flexibility so who knows. If I could pick anybody to go trade for I'd probably want Klay. He's solid on both ends and specializes in catch and shoot but I doubt that team is breaking up anytime soon. Dunno how they're gonna pay all those guys w/ Durant and Steph qualifying for the super max as well. I mean if you pay both 40 mil between them and their other two stars they'd be paying out 120 mil to 4 guys

[Mentor]

I highly doubt you will be able to get Beal for Saric and the 3rd pick. I also doubt you will be able to get CJ for that either, both are still very young, so why would anyone give away a young borderline all star type of player to get an uproven young player and Saric (which is a rotation player at best).

 

As for GS, i expect one or both Durrant and Curry to take some type of pay cuts, that was the whole point of them teaming up. If they wanted super max deals, Durrant would stay at OKC and Curry would move on. They know they have the opportunity to win 4-5 titles, so they wont be going anywhere.

 

As for the Lakers, personally, i would try to offload Deng and Mosgov together with players like Nance and Clarkson, they are both 25y old, so although they are young, they are not exactly spring chickens. I like both players, but getting rid of Deng and Mosgov is the most important thing at the moment. I would not mind offloading Russel because we seem to be getting Ball anyway. I know Indiana is about to lose George and he seems set to join us in 2018, maybe they will be willing to take Russel, Deng and the 28th pick in exchange, they are going to lose him anyway next year. Obviously they wont want to take on Deng's deal, but who knows. Personally if we offload Deng, i guess we can keep Mosgov, it is a big contract for sure, but he is a solid center.

[shortfuse122829]

Well first of all I assume the trade would be more involved than that as they usually are when a star level player is involved. I was just using that as a starting point. Also I think you under-value Saric, I watched a lot of 76'ers games this year and I think he's going to develop into a pretty solid player and a starting PF for many years. It took him a little while to adjust to the league coming over from Europe and a different style of play and a drastically different caliber of athlete but he was really solid in the 2nd half of the season especially when more was placed on his shoulders w/ the absence of Embiid.

 

SPLIT GP MIN FGM-FGA FG% 3PM-3PA 3P% FTM-FTA FT% OR DR REB AST BLK STL PF TO PTS 25 30.4 6.4-14.7 .432 1.4-4.8 .281 3.2-4.2 .779 1.5 5.8 7.3 3.4 0.6 0.9 2.6 3.0 17.3

 

 

I think his shooting numbers will go up when he has guys like Simmons there to create for him and Embiid on the floor at the same time. I know it'd be hard to convince a team to give up a star but not everything is so black and white. You already gave an example of it w/ the Pacers possibly having to give up George on the cheap just to be sure they get something for him and he doesn't walk for free. The Trail Blazers for example have a starting salary cap of 140 mil to start next season so are well into the luxury tax already. They were barely a .500 team and pick #15 and like #21 in the draft this year. So really where is there room to improve enough to compete for a championship? You don't have the cap space to sign anybody and unless you really get lucky w/ your picks you're probably not getting anybody that puts you over the top. So do you just accept you're at best a 5th seed and are getting eliminated in the first or second round every year? I mean there is no guarantee that if you draft a top 3 player you're going to get a star, look at Okafor and Russell in these recent drafts. I mean it takes most players until about their 4th season until they develop into the player that they're eventually going to become. Even some of the great players took until about the 4th year. My guess is that's because guys come out at 19 now where back in the day they played 3 or 4 years in college before coming out, so a guy like Tim Duncan could make more of an immediate impact because he was a rookie at 22yrs old.

 

But if you were to get a package for CJ like #3, #36 this year and the 76'er pick next year plus Saric. Then dump Evan Turner's contract, you hope that whoever you draft at #3 can develop into a star player and it's "supposedly" a deep draft but only time will tell on that kinda stuff, you get a guy who likely is your PF for the rest of his rookie contract and at least another contract. If you actually hit at #3 and he develops into another all-star or borderline all-star caliber player you now likely have 3 guys like that on your team between Lillard, Saric and #3 in addition you have more money available to go out and lure another all-star to join you. Is there any guarantee you're gonna hit on that pick and it all works out? No not really. Do you have more of a 'sure thing' in CJ if you just stand pat because he's already done it at the next level? Yep. But you can be just as sure that you're not going to be in an NBA finals any time in the near future.

[shortfuse122829]

The Wizards only have 123 million but are still over the cap. I mean they could probably dump a contract or two and be in a spot to maybe add another star and try to compete maybe? But with Wall making an all-nba team he qualified for that super max so he's going to be doubling his salary pretty soon. He's making 18 mil next year he'll be due for a 200 mil extension the next off-season if he opts out. And they're also going to owe Otto Porter 25 mil a year probably, so not sure if they really can add another star. I mean I guess you can just see if Otto develops into that star? They traded their 1st round pick to the Nets this year so not that they're not a solid team because they are, but they're not the Cavs or the Warriors. Not sure exactly what they could do to put them over the top.

 

 

I'm fine picking at #3 too and signing a star player or two, we'll have the cap space to bring in two guys but not really sure who's a FA or who I'd be interested in. I've also read it's possible we trade back a spot or two because it seems like we're interested in Monk and they feel he'd still be there at 5th or 6th. So I've read rumors of like Terrence Ross and #5 from the Magic to move up to 3rd. Monk is dangerous from deep and is a freak'ish athlete and I wanted Ross before last trade deadline in a deal for Noel or Okafor so I'd be comfortable with something like that too. I think we'd be a playoff team if guys stayed healthy (which is our biggest issue unfortunately) but we certainly wouldn't be a legit contender by just adding Monk/Ross and say a Kyle Lowry (since it seems we have mutual interest).

 

Anyway I doubt we're involved in any block-buster deals tbh but I can still hope lol. I'd say it's far more likely it's you guys or the Celtics that actually pull the trigger. I think you guys will just wait on George really but still more likely than us doing anything significant like that

[Mentor]

I would still not be interested in the deal you mentioned if i was the Blazers. You can get some good value on the picks you mentioned with this stacked draft and as you said, they are already quite high on the cap, so draft picks are a decent option, obviously they wont be competing for much, but they will have enough young talent to develop further.

 

As for Lowry, the dude is a dud in the playoffs, he has show year after year that he is not a guy you can rely on, plus i am not sure he will be willing to take a secondary role behind Embid. If they agree to give you Ross + the 5th pick to move up to 3rd, that is a very good deal in my opinion. Ross is a decent player and the depth of the draft allows for plenty of options at #5 i think. Put it this way, most people agree on the first 2, but 3rd down to 6-7 are debatable, so you could end up with the better option.

 

The Lakers are likely going to be a lot more limited this year, i noticed that we still have a lot of players on contract who i expected to be expiring such as Black, Brewer, Young (player option, but it is rumoured he wants to stay in LA), Deng, Mosgov. I also had a look at the FA's and there is not a massive amount of star power out there, most certainly not enough to make a serious difference. I think we should simply fill up the roster with younger FA's or unsigned drafted players, maybe get then to sign 3-4 year deals with the 2nd and onwards being team options then hope some of them pay off and sign George + someone else in the next FA when some of those contracts start to expire.

 

I still look at those contracts signed by Kupchak for Mosgov and Deng and i litterally want to cry. They talk about him being a genius, but signing those contracts to me are almost as if he tried to bury us for 4 years. How can anyone sane give to 2, 30 something players who were never really that great (ok, Deng had a couple of All star appearances, but that was ages ago), 34 million in cap space? I can understand if those were last minute, one year deals to fill up the roster, but 4 year contracts? That is absolutely absurd, you can get a world class talent in his prime for that amount and still be left with cash. Last year's highest paid player was Lebron at around 31m.

[Mentor]

I had a look at the Lakers contracts and i think it is not impossible for us to make a splash straight away, here would be my plan:

I would package up Deng and Mosgov in a package together with + Russell + Randle to try and offload the big contracts. Ideally it would be nice if one of those teams accepting would be Indiana (ie give them Deng, Russell and the 29th pick for George). If we manage to do that, it will mean our cap will drop to 40m, that gives us over 40m for FA's. I do not think it is impossible to find someone who will pickup Deng/Russell together with the 29th pick. In fact, if i can do something to offload Brewer's deal as well (he only has 1 year) to accomplish that, i would maybe even throw in the 3rd pick. Either way, i think that is achievable.

 

Players to Target via FA:

Jonathon Simmons (SG) I liked this guy a lot, totally dismantaled Harden in the playoffs, not that old and possible to get him on a decent deal. If we decide to get him, we should try to get Young to not opt into his player option, that will give us the cash to sign this guy (i expect 8-10m per year on 3 years should be enough).

Sergi Ibaka (PF) Can stretch the floor and is a good defender. Was on 12m last year, he can be had for around 20m i think.

Chris Paul (PG) 31y old, i think he value will be down this year, i heard he wants to come to the Lakers and a team we are proposing will likely be interesting to him. We should have around 20-25m in cap space to fit him in.

So the roster will look like this:

Tarik Black 26y - 6-10 ©
Sergi Ibaka 28y - 6-10 (PF) VIA FA
Paul George 26y- 6-8 (SF)
Jonathon Simmons 27y - 6-6 (SG) Via FA
Chris Paul 31y - 6-3 (PG)

Ivica Zubac 21y - 7-0 ©
Larry Nance Jr 25y - 6-10 (PF)
Brandon Ingram 20y - 6-10 (SF)
Jordan Clarkson 25y - 6-5 (SG)
Lonzo Ball 19y - 6-7 (PG) Via Draft

Corey Brewer 30y (SF) (assuming we cannot offload him in the trades)
David Nwaba 21y (SG)

 

That will be a very strong team i think, we could have to give Ball to offload those contracts, but i would do that. I think Someone like Patty Mills or Ian Clark can be decent backup PG's off the bench who can be had for the price of that pick (around 8m).

In general, i like this team because we have youth coming off the bench, a good veteran team starting, all of which can defend! Something we cannot do now. We have pretty good size in every position and enough range to shoot the 3 ball. Probably this team wont be very fast though, but we have 3-4 players who can work the fast break. Not sure we have enough on this team to compete for a title, probably not, but we should be around top 5 in the West and with enough young talent to be able to improve.

[mmagladiators]

Ball to the Lakers and the run of #2 picks ends next year...

[shortfuse122829]

Yeah I'm not sure I really want Lowry but mostly due to his age not his play. Whoever ends up being the "PG" on this team is going to be playing an off the ball role here because Ben is gonna be the guy with the ball in his hands on this team. So Lowry isn't going to be the primary ball handler here. Not to say he won't handle it any I'm sure at times when they play together & def when Ben isn't on the floor. He probably starts off on a min restriction if our history tells us anything so he'd do it a lot early on. Our interest in him is because he shot 42% on catch & shoot 3's last season so we think he can also play off the ball & he's a Philly boy. He's also a significant upgrade over Sergio Rodriguez & TJ McConnell our two PG's last year & is a veteran star type player.

My reason for not liking it is he's already 32 or something & I've already stated I think Ben turns into a "greek freak V.2" type player, but that like Giannis it'll take him until about year 3 to fully blossom

[shortfuse122829]

I think Lowry will be too old when Ben & Embiid mature into the players they'll become. So if he's just there to bridge a gap & help you go from 10 wins to 28 to 45 & make the playoffs a couple years & when his contract expires you go out & add another super star to try to make a run with a "prime" Ben & Embiid then I guess I'm fine on it I guess?? I just worry doing that costs you a chance at signing the right star at the right time & then you overpay someone in a weak FA year which we've done sooo many times

[Mentor]

Embid you have the injury bug, i really hope he is healthy this year because i would love to see a proper big man in the league, i loved the 80-90s big man basketball. As for Lowry, i did not know he was a Phili boy.

[JLP]

So I've read rumors of like Terrence Ross and #5 from the Magic to move up to 3rd.

I've read the same rumor from the Magic's perspective. Really makes no sense at all. All indications is that players selected 2-6 in the draft are about equal in terms of value. I cant see them giving up an asset like Ross (decent rotational player, still young) to move up two slots. The old gm who was fleeced in trades on a regular basis is gone, so that rumor just sounds like big city wishful thinking to me. Dennis Smith Jr is probably the best fit for the Magic, he'll most likely be there at 6.

[Mentor]

Yeah, that is what i have been hearing, #2 to around #6 is very debatable, even Ball is highly debatable as well. To me he is a slow PG, who is not much of a scorer and with a weird looking shot, in today's NBA most players are going the exact opposite direction (ie, very fast, score first PG's with a more shooting stroke, even Curry's shooting stroke is much more conventional than this guy's shot).

[Guest]

Cavs can't stop the warriors even with King James aka the best basketball player in nba history.

[The1rstSaint]

Cavs can't stop the warriors even with King James aka the best basketball player in nba history.

best player of his time sure, Jordan was the greatest i dont care what the youngsters think this age of basketball is all ego and no class.

[kenlow73]

best player of his time sure, Jordan was the greatest i dont care what the youngsters think this age of basketball is all ego and no class.

Yeah, anybody that still wants to call Lebron King James is either delusional or was born after Jordan retired. Jordan is 6-0 in NBA finals, Lebron is 3-5.

[Jacman]

Yeah, anybody that still wants to call Lebron King James is either delusional or was born after Jordan retired. Jordan is 6-0 in NBA finals, Lebron is 3-5.

 

Jordan is the GOAT but not by much imo. And that 6-0 in the finals is a really dumb argument to use. John Havlicek is 8-0 why not make him the GOAT. Lebron's record is worse but he has had worse teams and faced far tougher competition. Put Jordan in Lebron's shoes and he probably fares the same as the King.

 

Jordan is amazing but can we stop shitting on the present NBA and glorifying the past, both era's are great in their own way.

[Guest]

Jordan also had a hall of fame coach put LeBron with papovich

[Rambo]

Jordan also had a hall of fame coach put LeBron with papovich

 

Wouldn't work.

 

 

Jordan is/was a POS but absolutely dominant on the court. Lebron is dominant too but nowhere near as clutch. Guy never hits buzzer beaters. Ever.

 

 

I'll be honest, as a Miami Heat fan, I'm a big time Cav hater. But Kyrie is phenomenal. Never realized how good he was til this finals.

 

 

 

Durantula FTW! and getting Iggy with it. Probably the best line I heard in the playoffs, was "Getting Iggy with it!" -talking about Andre Iguadala.