Looking like there will soon be too few good public gyms for new fighters- Maybe already an issue if starting

[Bynum]

Well, first...let me define a "good public gym."  A good public gym has coaches capable of coaching what they coach well.

It isn't a good gym if the primary skill for what each coach coaches is less than Exceptional and all important secondary skills are not at least Proficient.  The ideal coach is, of course, double (for most secondaries taught) and (for clinch coaches) triple Elite, but the overall coach skill limit per gym (forgetting money; I'm willing to lose some money on my gym, and some other public gym owners are also, from their coaches' skills and gym size caps, just talking about the total coach skills) makes it impossible to have over 12 coaches and have all the Elite levels that would be ideal.  My gym has 15 coaches,- 14 Elite in their primary discipline, 1 Sensational.  Needed secondary skills, one or two are Strong in them, the rest better; but when I give Exceptional/Proficient as minimums, I'm leaving some latitude; though nearly everyone, even the bad gyms, has nearly every coach Elite in something.

Everyone who says "You're giving up some training by not having Elite in even the secondaries," Well...of course.  But in a Public gym you can't limit yourself to 12 coaches and thus have no coach skill limit unless you're going to specialize, as in standup only or grappling only.  There are good public gyms in Hilo that specialize like that and do their specialty very well.

If you move fighters around, the Hilo standup/grapple gyms together make for a great gym tandem, though there is zero CT between them and physicals depop if you never train physicals.

Other than that, though, with 12 coaches you'll never keep class sizes from being too large unless you limit the size to an amount so small there won't be enough sparring.  People with private gyms can do 12 with double/triple Elites, because if their fighter wants to train something else they can just switch what the coach teaches that session.  That would mess with fighters in a public gym of course, though.

It isn't a good gym if the primary skill is the wrong one, as in...it's not unusual to see a D-Grap or Transitions coach that's Elite...in Wrestling (very little BJJ, which comes first for those), or a Clinchwork coach whose top discipline is Boxing.  It wouldn't cost any more to make the skill the right one, so that's some gym owners apparently not reading the help file.

There's more, but I don't want to write a ton on what makes a gym acceptable, and no public gym is perfect, including mine.  Mine exceeds the criteria I laid out, though (I need to sack a CT coach and replace with a second one to teach punches, is my gym's biggest flaw, harder than it sounds with the coach skill cap, that due to coaches gaining skills I'm over, so I'd have to sack another coach besides the CT coach I'd be replacing and hire an inferior replacement to be able to then hire the new one).

But I'll get to my point...which is that among the few good public gyms...I have the normal max 25 fighters (I could have one more if I bought the last slot available because I won a free fighter slot, but for now I'm keeping it at 25, more due to 25 keeping me busy than the good public gym shortage).  I have 10 in my public gym, and prefer not to put all my fighters into my public gym as it would no longer be public then, with only 5 slots for other managers' fighters.

What I'm seeing with the gyms the other 15 are in...most are in gyms, gyms I think are pretty much the only good public gyms around, either for sale and not listed among public gyms, or that have gone private and I'm fortunate are letting my fighters stay.

If I were starting now looking for a public gym for all new fighters, I'd have a very hard time finding a public gym that wasn't really bad and had room to put my fighters in.

I guess that situation has existed before, from what I've read.  It looks like it's coming about again.  As it is, I'm okay.  If I create a fighter, I sack a fighter, and I can do it quickly and turn over the slot in the good public gym to my new fighter...though with more becoming private, that's more tenuous.  But at the least I have my own gym, and if I need to, I can make my public gym private, lose a lot more money but I have a good amount to go through before I'd have to sell more VIP for in-game cash or something, but...there, I hit on the problem.

This situation, with public gyms going private, will just snowball, I think is already snowballing.  So many of the good public gyms that have existed are going private, probably because, similar to the situation I may soon find myself in, I'd guess the owner was training a lot of his fighters in his gym and was having trouble finding spots in decent public gyms, so has to go private to make sure he always has a spot for his fighters.

What the lack of worthwhile public gyms will do, if nothing is done to try to push more good public gyms into the game, is new managers, or even new fighters of managers that have been around, pretty soon will only be able to get lousy training.  Or, it may actually be happening already.  I don't know what I'd do if I were a new manager starting out except buy extra VIP, sell it for in-game cash, and open a private gym.  That won't be conducive to keeping new players around, there's already concern about the game shrinking, and it will shrink further.

Something has to be done.  We're at a point where there are already very few slots in good public gyms, and soon there will be none unless you're sacking a guy and replacing him.  Maybe not even that if all the good public gyms are forced to go private or, in one case, is up for sale and I hope someone buys it so it doesn't go out of business.  I can't buy it, as one can only own one gym (the multi business cost would also eat through my VIP ultra-fast).  I hope someone buys it, though.

I'm not complaining about my situation.  In a pinch I can take my gym private.  I'll avoid it if I can, but I do have that way out.  Many new players won't be willing to buy a bunch of extra VIP to buy in-game cash to do that; and barring that, it's looking like they'll get lousy training, get discouraged, etc..

[Icon73]

I think public gyms at this point are stupid and pointless. Make all gyms private and give everyone a gym slot free of charge.

[KellyM5]

I agree with you and it's been an issue for a while. You need decent public gyms to retain new players, or like you said, the player base is going to shrink. It's hard to get ahead or even feel like you're advancing your fighters skills at all, with most of the public gyms. At this point, with the player base so low, I think the game would benefit with a boost to the Cozad gyms and actually make them a viable place to train fighters. 

[10thPlanetKT]

3 hours ago, KellyM5 said:

I agree with you and it's been an issue for a while. You need decent public gyms to retain new players, or like you said, the player base is going to shrink. It's hard to get ahead or even feel like you're advancing your fighters skills at all, with most of the public gyms. At this point, with the player base so low, I think the game would benefit with a boost to the Cozad gyms and actually make them a viable place to train fighters. 

That is actually incorrect. The game has approximately 200 people more active then as of two years ago when I reached daily activity with this game. 

As far as the pubic gyms issue I agree that private gym slots should be free at this point in the game because it is too inefficient and people often crowd the sessions. 

[popart]

Public gyms as a whole were never going to be able to be feasible for the long term. The fact that they:

1. Operate at such a deficit, and

2. Are incredibly unproductive compared to private gyms, 

Make it so that the number of public gyms will constantly dwindle. New players can either tough it out and take on an org job/different company (I had a clothing company until I was able to afford a private gym) or find a mentor that's kind enough to be a sugar daddy, of which there are plenty around as long as you show that you won't leave the game after a week. 

[10thPlanetKT]

When I reached top 100 I only had a public gym but my mentor Tev Clark at the time gave me a million or so loan over a year. I was able to pretty uh reach top then in less then 15 months. It really does help. I also was given a supplement store to maintain at the time. But public gyms need to go or be upgraded to have more coaches then a private gym so that there isn't such a gap in training. 12 coaches for a public gym isn't enough.

[KellyM5]

14 hours ago, 10thPlanetKT said:

That is actually incorrect. The game has approximately 200 people more active then as of two years ago when I reached daily activity with this game. 

As far as the pubic gyms issue I agree that private gym slots should be free at this point in the game because it is too inefficient and people often crowd the sessions. 

I was referring to more than 2 years ago, when I originally started playing. Compared to now, the game has shrunk a lot and almost nothing has been done to address it. 

The reason i suggested improving Cozad over Mike having to actually put some work in to overhaul the gym system... Let's be real here, that's just not going to happen. 

 The public gym subsidy was nice, but it's just a band aid. It's not a long-term solution. 

[HareRumpler]

16 hours ago, 10thPlanetKT said:

That is actually incorrect. The game has approximately 200 people more active then as of two years ago when I reached daily activity with this game. 

Is it though?  Is it really?  Or is it just that there are a crap-ton more multi's now given a complete and total blind eye has been turned to it and people don't care as much now that you can hold multiple companies yourself?  My guess is there's a lot more multi's and that doesn't equate to more individual involvement.

[Alfred]

I don't care what anyone says. There is nothing that would convinced me there are more players now than 2 years ago. I rejoined the game back in 2017 and from then to now, it feels like it's shrunk considerably

[Gator001]

4 hours ago, HareRumpler said:

Is it though?  Is it really?  Or is it just that there are a crap-ton more multi's now given a complete and total blind eye has been turned to it and people don't care as much now that you can hold multiple companies yourself?  My guess is there's a lot more multi's and that doesn't equate to more individual involvement.

 

51 minutes ago, Alfred said:

I don't care what anyone says. There is nothing that would convinced me there are more players now than 2 years ago. I rejoined the game back in 2017 and from then to now, it feels like it's shrunk considerably

I have to agree, havent been here that long but there definitely seems to have been a lot of shrinkage in the three years I have played

[Zello]

Mike needs to get rid of the VIP requirement if you want to start a public gym.

[scottxbandz]

4 minutes ago, Zello said:

Mike needs to get rid of the VIP requirement if you want to start a public gym.

i believe this may be the best idea presented in the thread

[scottxbandz]

not saying its an easy matter to solve, but i think that might be a good, low maintenance fix.

 

it also gives newer players a chance at running a business and perhaps also helps retention in other ways.

[Zello]

5 minutes ago, scottxbandz said:

i believe this may be the best idea presented in the thread

Let anybody and everybody open up a public gym. No VIP required but the gym has to remain public.

[10thPlanetKT]

6 hours ago, HareRumpler said:

Is it though?  Is it really?  Or is it just that there are a crap-ton more multi's now given a complete and total blind eye has been turned to it and people don't care as much now that you can hold multiple companies yourself?  My guess is there's a lot more multi's and that doesn't equate to more individual involvement.

Yes I have taken that into account. It is definitely a factor. However my theory is that there are still a lot of new users that spike the count that shortly thereafter quit the game because they don't understand how to do anything and don't feel like reading the forums to find out because it is not there style of game. MMA tycoon isn't an instant gratification type of game. Not all of them are multis. 

In fact, there were multis two years ago as well. So I could use that same point for my argument as well.

[Bynum]

I think making Cozad gyms more reasonable for training is a good idea, kind of like how apparently from things I've read they used to be mediocre in equipment quality and cleanliness, and now are still a notch below a well maintained non-Cozad gym, but good enough that if you're doing Weights/Cardio/Yoga you don't do that badly.

It could be made so it wasn't as good as a truly good public gym, but good enough that secondary training wasn't useless (as in increase the number of coaches so class sizes rarely were above 5, and make the coaches Wonderful at all disciplines; a good public gym, much less private, is still better, but you can still gain some from training there; right now training secondaries at Cozad is basically useless.

I'd also like to see the total coach skill cap played with.  If you have your own private gym, you can have 12 coaches, double/triple elites where needed (because with 12 coaches there's no total skill cap), and the lower than ideal number of coaches is okay because you can just change what they coach if you need a different skill trained.  I know that won't change.  It would probably be good for the game to weaken private gyms by having the same total skill cap even if there are only 12 coaches, but people with private gyms that can only be so great due to how that works would go berserk, some would quit, and the game needs fewer people quitting, not more...but public gyms could get a boost by...

I'm not going to suggest eliminating the total skill cap.  I'm not even going to suggest directly raising it.  I'm going to suggest indirectly raising it, not dramatically, in a way that encourages better coaches (as opposed to one-discipline ones), as it would be a better increase if you have more disciplines per coach.

That would be, the first X (let's say 40, though the number is negotiable) points in a discipline doesn't count against the skill cap.  So add a single-elite (other disciplines useless) coach, even that cost does go down, costing 100 rather than 140.  But instead, add a Wonderful secondary to a single-Elite, which makes the coach a lot more useful for most training, and that improvement costs 70 rather than 110, with the elite still costing 100 rather than 140.  Essentially it means have two disciplines it costs 80 points less, where one discipline costs 40 points less.

That also will still allow more and better coaches...but only public gyms (or private gyms with many different managers) need to exceed 12 coaches.  If you have your own private gym, have 12 coaches, Elite in anything they might need, and just change what their classes are when you need it.  If you have a public gym , or any gym with more managers, that's when you need more than 12 coaches...so the indirect cap increase would benefit public or at least semi-public (as in private but with many managers) gyms, not really affecting fully private gyms for 1 or 2 managers much.

It would also encourage those gyms to make their coaches better, as in not being single-discipline, because you get more of a "discount" toward the skill cap if you have more disciplines.

[Bynum]

And well, ouch...the public gym I had the most fighters in besides my own, I thought it was extremely good compared to other public gyms, apparently failed to be bought so is closing.

I'll have to raise the limit for my own gym to fit most of those fighters in, then maybe lower it a bit for class size reasons, and lose a few fighters through attrition such that class sizes remain manageable.  I'm a step closer to being forced to go private, though, which for the good of the game (more than to lose less in-game money) I don't want to.  In the end if I can't keep my fighters getting good training without going private, I'll have to go private and the game will lose another of its better public gyms.

If anyone who can offer this sees this post, I'll pay someone a bit beyond the gym fee if I can put a couple fighters in their good private gym, one that isn't a one person gym but made for several managers such that what coaches train won't be changed quickly (and skills my fighters need aren't omitted).

I will say there'd be more good public gyms if so many public gym owners didn't do such an awful job of assigning coaches' skills.  In many cases it would just be a matter of reading the help files.

But something has to be done or Tycoon's going to bleed managers even faster.

Edited to add:  How about not necessarily letting non-VIP's open public gyms, but make them not cost extra VIP if owned along with another business, though that would only apply if the gym is public?  Then more people with an org or clothing or nutrition company might open a public gym as well.

Edited October 6, 2021 by Bynum
Adding idea

[Zello]

On 10/4/2021 at 10:58 PM, Zello said:

Let anybody and everybody open up a public gym. No VIP required but the gym has to remain public.

Give public gyms subsidies or something. So public gym owners have an incentive to keep it public. Maybe reduce the cost of coaches up to a certain skill maybe up to Wonderful or Exceptional. You will get paid a bonus every week if you make a Public gym in a city with very few public gyms.

The Tycoon Gym program. Keep your gym Public and get $69, some weed, a free drink of choice at the liquor store, and a lap dance from Mike ?

[clydebankblitz]

A lot of stuff been posted in here already and it's a fair amount to unpack haha. At a user level, is there anything that can be done?

[Bynum]

8 hours ago, clydebankblitz said:

A lot of stuff been posted in here already and it's a fair amount to unpack haha. At a user level, is there anything that can be done?

A user who wants to help the situation, and who doesn't own their own private gym (because one can't own more than one gym) could open a quality public gym, by reading the help files carefully and hiring coaches truly qualified to teach what they teach (they don't have to be Elite in secondary skills, just Elite in the primary and Remarkable or the like in the secondary (allowing you to afford more coaches without going over the total coach skill level cap)- and make sure they're Elite in the right discipline, which is shown clearly in the gym ownership help file.

Unfortunately, and this will be a reason some who might otherwise do it probably won't, the system will punish you for it, because second businesses cost VIP time, and gyms are among the more expensive ones that way.  I wish Mike would art least make public gyms as a second business not cost VIP as long as they're truly public.

But if a user is willing to make sacrifices to make the game better- it's a significant sacrifice because of the VIP cost, but all it would take is 3-4 users doing it if they made the gyms good gyms, and the situation would become much better.

[10thPlanetKT]

1 hour ago, Bynum said:

A user who wants to help the situation, and who doesn't own their own private gym (because one can't own more than one gym) could open a quality public gym, by reading the help files carefully and hiring coaches truly qualified to teach what they teach (they don't have to be Elite in secondary skills, just Elite in the primary and Remarkable or the like in the secondary (allowing you to afford more coaches without going over the total coach skill level cap)- and make sure they're Elite in the right discipline, which is shown clearly in the gym ownership help file.

Unfortunately, and this will be a reason some who might otherwise do it probably won't, the system will punish you for it, because second businesses cost VIP time, and gyms are among the more expensive ones that way.  I wish Mike would art least make public gyms as a second business not cost VIP as long as they're truly public.

But if a user is willing to make sacrifices to make the game better- it's a significant sacrifice because of the VIP cost, but all it would take is 3-4 users doing it if they made the gyms good gyms, and the situation would become much better.

This. A second slot is long overdo. Especially for the new players that are just starting out. They want to know whether on not VIP is worth is or not. But if they are getting frustrated because they are still ranked low and don't have the money to afford the expensive fees of a private gym, they will just quit. This is part of the reason why there are always so many players online that quit the game not to long after. We have to look out for the newer players in this particular issue. It helps Mike as well because transitioning  new players to a daily user increases the chances of them spending money on the game due to becoming a hardcore. I hope Mike looks at this. This is becoming a big problem.

[HareRumpler]

3 hours ago, 10thPlanetKT said:

This. A second slot is long overdo. Especially for the new players that are just starting out. They want to know whether on not VIP is worth is or not. But if they are getting frustrated because they are still ranked low and don't have the money to afford the expensive fees of a private gym, they will just quit. This is part of the reason why there are always so many players online that quit the game not to long after. We have to look out for the newer players in this particular issue. It helps Mike as well because transitioning  new players to a daily user increases the chances of them spending money on the game due to becoming a hardcore. I hope Mike looks at this. This is becoming a big problem.

The only issue is...and trust me, I get it, this is a fine line issue to walk between trying to help and retain "true" new players versus trying to prevent abuse...

Multi's will get used to abuse anything that is offered to "new users" that costs less.  So it's a question of a) do you not worry about the multi abuse knowing it's for the betterment of retaining some actual new users b) do you not do it because multi's will abuse things or c) do you do it, but start actually policing the multi situation better to prevent abuse. 

That last part takes effort and time.  Something I'm not convinced will be put in regularly.

[Gator001]

I remember maybe a year + ago when a bunch of experienced players financed gyms in every city to help the game. What happened to all those gyms?

[10thPlanetKT]

50 minutes ago, Gator001 said:

I remember maybe a year + ago when a bunch of experienced players financed gyms in every city to help the game. What happened to all those gyms?

No incentive & or probably transitioned into semi private alliance only gyms is my guess.

[Bynum]

3 hours ago, HareRumpler said:

The only issue is...and trust me, I get it, this is a fine line issue to walk between trying to help and retain "true" new players versus trying to prevent abuse...

Multi's will get used to abuse anything that is offered to "new users" that costs less.  So it's a question of a) do you not worry about the multi abuse knowing it's for the betterment of retaining some actual new users b) do you not do it because multi's will abuse things or c) do you do it, but start actually policing the multi situation better to prevent abuse. 

That last part takes effort and time.  Something I'm not convinced will be put in regularly.

I say a, given it won't necessarily mean more multis, if done, as it actually removes one reason one might run a multi, as one reason one might run a multi is to get another business slot, and the game would be giving second slots to all VIPs.