Ticker Replacements

[topologies]

I would personally like to see a stick position in the clinch as well. You can go for double under hooks to avoid takedowns and set up takedowns yourself or you can go for the thai clinch to do some damage. I'm not familiar with other terms as I only know muay thai but I think you get my point. I would like to see a clinch grappling of some sort in the clinch to make the clinch game more realistic. These are just my opinions on the clinch game. BTW how about the skill cuts? I think it will be great for the game but I just don't understand the percentage thing. Why not just let the top guys get hit with the age decline and implement the new system to the newer creations more like a soft reset? If it's possible.

[Warwynd]

So if the change is made and we hit the top at 80% then what, no tickers so our guys are just done training till the age decline kicks in or what? So you have elite striking D, takedowns, and GNP. A few others that are wonderful, the rest suck. But you get no use from training more? Just recover energy after a fight and wait till the next one?

 

Mike had said (in the OP I believe) that you could gain a bit of advantage for a particular fight by training which would boost up that trained area for a corresponding loss somewhere else. What I think would be better is a temporary boost to the area you focus in. It might be quite messy to code this but:

 

After you are at the 80% mark the training options in the gym could allow for "maintenance training". Sort of a CT for Secondaries. Mix in a few sparring sessions to maintain the Primaries and you greatly simplify your training (and save loads of time).

 

Now enter the pending fight. Your ground fighting specialist is facing a stand up at range Striker; You obviously want to focus on your SD, so you train that extensively while mixing in the bare minimum of "maintenance" sessions and rather than it affecting your total skill points it would give you a 1-2% (maybe 2-3%) boost to that skill you trained. Count up the points that would be gained and add them in I suppose, but after the fight they drop off again.

 

This would probably require some sort of check box that switches your fighter from regular training mode to a "maintenance mode". This would preserve your overall build but still allow you to tweak your training for a specific fight.

 

I guess I wouldn't mind the changes if we set the caps a bit higher. Maybe 140 could be the new 150, or like Karter said, set the overall cap at 90%. Aptitudes should be taken out or be put to use. I put all the points into the wrestling aptitude for my new project and I found he learns slightly faster than my other project does when it comes to wrestling and its secondaries. I just think 80% overall is too low for us to have any real "elite" fighters.

 

It just means that you will have to decide what you want to be Elite at. You cannot be Elite at everything. More fighter diversity means more fun in my opinion. It does sorta suck for those guys that are well above the 80% mark to get the big hit, but it is more of a compression then a mathematical loss or reduction. And since you get to pick (or so it seems that Mike is leaning towards) then you can keep your highest skills right where they already are.

 

First off #1.)who is bored with the game because of the builds? I have never heard anyone complain about having all skills 90% average. That highest skilled guy is a perfect example that being the most skilled means shit. He's lost 4 fights in a row. LMAO The boring aspect of teh game is that so many people have left. There isnt the same level of participation anymore. There arent many people doing write ups or posters or all the other stuff people did constantly. It has nothing to do with builds. Its the mass exodus from ticker hell.

 

I do not see how any of these changes fix anything as far as builds. The tickers proved that limiting the amount of skills so people could only build a specific guy DIDNT WORK. There is no variation in the game because there has NEVER been a consistent batch of top level ground guys. Strikers have always been the dominate build. Have some people had success with ground guys? Yes! Has there been consistent success with them across teh board? NO! It has always taken longer to build ground guys on top of that. Like I stated previsouly, it takes 4-5 secondary skills to build a striker to compete. It takes 6-7 to build a ground guy. On top of that most people willtell you that striking is needed to make the takedowns effective, but no takedowns are needed to assist with striking. Its just a quagmire that hinders training ground fighters. That is the major issue with variation, not tickers or forcing people to build a specific way. People already build a specific build. Its not like people do not want to build ground fighters. #2.) Almost everyone has tried their hands at ground guys, and most will give you the same complaints. It takes too long to build, and the effectiveness has been hit and miss.

 

 

Another issue to consider with the whole ground vs striking problems that may be a factor with these changes is how many skills are needed. If you make it harder to put a lot of skills on fighters it could also discourage building ground based fighters. As I stated earlier, ground fighters need many more skills to be effective. If you cant build a lot of skills quickly or to a high level, it could end up discouraging people as well.

 

#1.) I am not at the top tiers but I have stated on numerous occasions that I feel it would be quite boring if everyone looked the same.

 

#2.) Agree, of course I am not sure if it's cause I suck or it's just too hard to make an effective ground fighter. Probably due to the fact that I haven't had the best training for my fighters their entire careers and add to that the sheer number of skills required... yep... translates pretty directly to ineffective ground fighters. Granted, it I had it to do over again I would start out with a different build, train them differently and make them younger out the gate. I would also place apptitudes better and choose different hiddens, but that is stuff that comes with experience and a finer understanding of the game mechanics.

 

Elite physicals are small fish to fry IMO. Strikers vs grappling is much bigger issue. Has been an issue for a long time. If you want variety in the game then striker vs grappler issue has to be fixed.

 

As it sits right now, the max skill points available in the game is 3150. At 80% that's 2520. Having Elite across the board in physicals would eat up 900 of those points. That leaves far fewer to go around in Secondaries and Primaries. It's self limiting. Would the all elite physicals guys be a god among men? Yes. Would he be a better fighter then the guy with slightly lower Physicals and far superior Secondaries? doubtful. That would come down to hiddens and slider skills.

 

 

Whether I like the changes or not, whatever route's taken, I would like a significant heads up so I can prepare accordingly. 2-3 weeks. I really wouldn't want this change happening right before fight time, unless I was aware of it beforehand.

 

I can certainly appreciate the desire for some time (I would say a month of advance notice) before implementation of this. It would suck if you had a gameplan in place baced on the current numbers in for your fighter and suddenly all the numbers change and you are left without time to make changes. I think the request is reasonable. Even the 2-3 weeks Chris is asking for is a bit short, but a workable compromise if Mike is ready to go forward with this and begin testing in the live environment.

 

I disagree with raising the cap from 150 to 170. That only encourages a greater divide. However, I do totally respect those who have earned or trained their elite fighters and have been playing for 3 years or so. I'm not sure what would be fair to those veteran managers, but I disagree with raising the point value limit.

 

I am not a huge fan of the higher point values myself, but again if you want to put 170 points into one skill that reduces your total pool of points available by 20 points. So yeah, you might hit like a freight train (170 punches) but your D Grap may suffer for example. Again... not exactly a fan myself, but it would contribute to greater diversity in fighter builds.

 

Ok well how's about this as a solution...

 

- When Deterioration Happens

Make deterioration based on a combination of injuries (throughout the career) and also a random factor for every fighter of how long they've been in mma. 10 years seems to be a good yardstick, so if we +/- a couple of years either way that gives us 8-12 years from creation before any decline and then it could still be minor or huge depending on the other factors

 

-How it happens

Leave fighting skills alone!! People have earned them and trained hard for them, let them keep the skills but add a small decline if theyre not trained at all for too long. How about making it so physicals and hiddens decline? You lose a little speed here, a little cardio there. You take so many shots you just start to get hurt that little easier (chin), you have had a long career and the motivation just isn't there like it used to be (heart), your body has taken so much punishment from the fights and the training that those injuries just won't seem to shift as easy (injury)

 

- Skill Cap

Have a skill cap but leave the primaries out of it. Primaries play a relatively small part by comparison to the combined secondary and physicals effects and way behind hidden. Leave them there as this will make scouting fights more important, as even though a fighter has Sensational Muay Thai you may still work out you have a better clinch game than him and exploit it

 

Opinions?

 

Overall a very cool idea. I like it.

[Erik]

So, I think the best solution is to add two more secondaries. One for ground and one for clinch, or maybe just two for ground. These would be set at 0 points. Adding 2 more skills (when we currently have 21), is conveniently roughly a 10% increase in total available skill points, so someone who has 90% skills now, will have roughly 80% total skills with two additional secondaries added.

 

 

So if people like that idea, what would the skills be? Split defensive grappling into sub defense and ground control / positioning?

 

 

Warning: This is something of an idea overflow.

 

First off: when I say essential I mean it's needed to survive against someone half decent in that domain -- i.e. without it you will lose almost certainly (think Kicks or Strike Def in stand up), by trimming I mean it's helpful (and certainly changes the momentum on occasion) but not strictly essential all the time (like Subs on the ground, or knees in the clinch).

 

 

I don't think adding another clinch skill is a good idea as the clinch already has 3 clinch-specific skills (2 of which many people would argue are semi-useless, certainly nobody argues knees and elbows are much more than trimmings at the moment).

 

 

Splitting def grap helps a little bit and is also a really good idea, but it doesn't really resolve the problem (as to be functional the grappler will need both skills too), adding any "essential" ground skill will mean grapplers need it, and adding a "trimming" would mean strikers would be able to ignore it -- unless it was like a "get up" skill lol.

 

It may actually be that striking has too few skills needed that actually makes it strong; a striker can function at 100% on 6 secondaries (punches, kicks, strike def, clinch, tdd, def grap) and a grappler needs basically all of those bar tdd (which is traded for td) and needs 1-2 more skills (gnp, subs) to be effective.

 

I think what is needed are 1-2 skills that make the difference in striking dominance, without making them so strong grapplers need them to actually survive long enough to hit a takedown. Basically "trimmings" for strikers that fill the role of subs for grapplers or knees/elbows for clinchers.

 

Maybe adding another striking skill -- for example footwork: if you split upper body and shoot takedowns it could act as part of tdd for upper body while at range, and perhaps a factor in avoiding clinches and a small boost to making punches less easy to counter. Another option is to make knees or elbows do something useful at striking distance (as a rare attack option -- like combos or head kicks but maybe even lower percentage), even as a counter-only attack which is slightly more realistic (see below by what I mean when I say counter only as it's slider related).

 

 

 

Some general slider/engine thoughts that aren't strictly skill related but do relate to this topic of striker/grappler balance.

- Splitting upper body and lower body TDs on sliders -- different risk/reward ratios and different skills (even if it's more physicals and height/weight, which will hopefully be relevant again after the changes).

 

- Splitting counter / non-counter actions -- I've rarely seen a standing knee or elbow (that landed) as an initial strike, but I've seen a few land as counter shots. Maybe make it so loading up on low percentage moves (like takedowns, power shots, or head kicks) makes the counter less likely or allow counters to miss on a lesser rate to normal shots. Basically you have a whole separate set of sliders for counter actions.

 

- Fix the clinch sliders in general (split mt head/body slider from dirty box head/body slider, knees available as part of dirty boxing to the legs/body).

[Warwynd]

OK I've slept on it and;

 

1. I don't like raising skills to 170. There are too many potential problems and it's too messy.

2. Other people don't like cutting skills.

3. People want improvements to the ground and clinch and to balance out the fight engine. That wasn't the point of the thread but it came up straight away and has dominated so it's clearly the most important thing to a lot of people.

 

So, I think the best solution is to add two more secondaries. One for ground and one for clinch, or maybe just two for ground. These would be set at 0 points. Adding 2 more skills (when we currently have 21), is conveniently roughly a 10% increase in total available skill points, so someone who has 90% skills now, will have roughly 80% total skills with two additional secondaries added.

 

We would allow people to fill those two new skills up to whatever level they want by taking points from their other skills (probably with some calculation in place to make it relative to their other skills, so a rubbish fighter couldn't add it above 100 points, just like on fighter creation).

 

We can then get this hiddens cap around 78-82% without anyone having to lose any points AND we can improve the detail of the ground game (and maybe clinch if that needs doing too).

 

So if people like that idea, what would the skills be? Split defensive grappling into sub defense and ground control / positioning?

 

Another option would be the addition of a new primary but that's potentially very messy. I'd always intended to add sort of "bonus" skills like karate and judo as a specialism. So it might say has X boxing, X muay thai, x wrestling and x BJJ, with a specialism in Judo. Those would be gained by doing seminars at gyms.

 

So yeah, that's why I don't want to do primaries but I would like to do secondaries. What would people like / is that a goer?

 

I really like this solution... it should help to achieve all that you are hoping to without gimping the people that have worked hard to get where they are... which is pretty much all of us. Adding those two new skills will screw my standup guys in the short run, but I really like the idea since it will mean that ground guys could be much more effective since it is highly unlikely that standup specialists will be great at all aspects of ground defense. Lower numbers mean it is less likely that they can simply take D Grap to Exceptional or higher (depending on what level of competition you're facing) and call it fait accompli.

 

i like the idea of making the primaries more vague. give them a more broad description like the bjj system.

 

i like the idea of a public view and a private view of fighters skills.

 

private view, you, the manager, sees the fighters actual skill.

 

public view, you, the opponent, sees the highest skill the fighter has ever obtained (not counting boost). even if skills decline, they still maintain the perception that they were as good as they ever were.

 

i also like the idea of a fighter hitting a hard cap and then getting a boost from training leading up to a fight. that's good! it gets ppl excited about training again! just have it reset back to zero after each fight. that brings back the old style of training where you trained specifically for your opponent, rather than to tickers. you felt like you were gaining ground, rather than merely holding your ground. that creates optimism, which creates excitement. which creates fun, which creates addiction

 

 

i think fighter aptitude should remain to be a major part in learning speed and ability to gain "boost" once a fighter reaches the cap.

 

i also think that it's time that the sparring system should be fixed. it's okay to only allow ppl to spar 6 times per week. but it's absolutely retarded to penalize ppl for sparring back to back. if somebody wants to spar 6 times in a row because that's the way the gyms sparring schedule works out, then why not? that needs to be addressed. it's rediculous that you're forced to alternate your training.

 

Gotta say, I agree with Ed on this one.

 

For those people who can't stand to see de-pops or skills degrade, what if we removed the -- to ++ ratings as well as the actual point scripts and just had a basic skill level? I'll be honest, the less we actually know, the better. Does Jon Jones know his kicks have went from Elite - to Sensational ++ because he's not trained them for a couple of weeks? I want more generalities. I'll bet the people who resist the skill reduction idea - myself included - feel that way because we're far too preoccupied with skill levels. I mean, we have scripts to give us the information down to a hundredth of a point! It's too much.

 

I, for one really enjoy those -- and ++ marks in the Assistant. the mini pops make me happy and gives me a reason to check my training progress daily.

[762x39]

OK I've slept on it and;

 

1. I don't like raising skills to 170. There are too many potential problems and it's too messy.

2. Other people don't like cutting skills.

3. People want improvements to the ground and clinch and to balance out the fight engine. That wasn't the point of the thread but it came up straight away and has dominated so it's clearly the most important thing to a lot of people.

 

So, I think the best solution is to add two more secondaries. One for ground and one for clinch, or maybe just two for ground. These would be set at 0 points. Adding 2 more skills (when we currently have 21), is conveniently roughly a 10% increase in total available skill points, so someone who has 90% skills now, will have roughly 80% total skills with two additional secondaries added.

 

We would allow people to fill those two new skills up to whatever level they want by taking points from their other skills (probably with some calculation in place to make it relative to their other skills, so a rubbish fighter couldn't add it above 100 points, just like on fighter creation).

 

We can then get this hiddens cap around 78-82% without anyone having to lose any points AND we can improve the detail of the ground game (and maybe clinch if that needs doing too).

 

So if people like that idea, what would the skills be? Split defensive grappling into sub defense and ground control / positioning?

 

Another option would be the addition of a new primary but that's potentially very messy. I'd always intended to add sort of "bonus" skills like karate and judo as a specialism. So it might say has X boxing, X muay thai, x wrestling and x BJJ, with a specialism in Judo. Those would be gained by doing seminars at gyms.

 

So yeah, that's why I don't want to do primaries but I would like to do secondaries. What would people like / is that a goer?

I think you found a winner. That way no one loses skill. But everyones total % drops. I think the ground changes would be great, I personaly dont have a problem with the clinch. Plus I like instead of a fixed 80% the 78-82 chance. Also liked the idea of a new hidden, instead of fast learner, the higher total%, but even with out that. This post is as close as you will get to making everyone happy. Only thing I personaly would change is intsead of 78-82, I would like 80-85. But that is just me wanting a little higher skill. Kind of selfish. So what ever works!

[Goatacre]

Because it is still my fighters that get nerf'd also.

 

Except, of course, that it's not. They are not getting nerfed, merely their arbitrary descriptions of their skills was proposed to be amended, as was everyone else's. Hence Barbossa was correct in describing it as a compression.

 

Sad to see Mike having to concede ground to ignoramuses

[762x39]

Only problem I see with changing the D grapling, is would also have to change what the coaches train to focas on both. For the other skill, I liked whoever posted about spliting subs into chokes and joint locks. Again would need a coach change and I dont know how hard that would be for you.

[Goatacre]

I don't feel any of my fighters stats are beyond realistic so I just can't wrap my head around why their stats should decrease at all. It took a long fuckin time for them to get that way. 3+ years. I have the #1 and #2 LHW in the game (at the moment) and that's like having Jon Jones and Dan Henderson caliber of fighter on your roster. Rampage Jackson / Chuck Liddell / Lyoto Machida / Gegard Mousasi / Rashad Evans... So when you tell me their stats are decreasing...

 

No idea why you keep banging on about realism, as that is an entirely subjective argument to try and ascribe terms such as elite/sensational/exceptional to the skills of real life fighters. Especially baffled what relevance it had to my comment that you quoted directly above is, but probably further demonstrates your own inability to grasp exactly what Mike had proposed.

 

Adding an extra two levels on top of elite will have exactly the same effect on your fighters as compressing the existing levels would have done. Only thing that changes is how those relative descriptions are shown to you, but you don't seem to fathom this at all.

[MMATycoon]

Only problem I see with changing the D grapling, is would also have to change what the coaches train to focas on both. For the other skill, I liked whoever posted about spliting subs into chokes and joint locks. Again would need a coach change and I dont know how hard that would be for you.

It's not easy but I don't mind when it actually makes the game better. It would have been very begrudgingly that I'd do e.g. adding two levels above elite, because that was actually a worse system than I was initially proposing and was a lot more work. This is a lot, lot more work but also is better than the initially proposed solution.

[MMATycoon]

OK let's not get into arguing for the sake of it, about an idea we've moved beyond. Let's focus on the idea of adding two more secondaries and we can all work together not against eachother.

[Guest]

What time frame are we looking at if this goes off without a hitch?

[762x39]

It's not easy but I don't mind when it actually makes the game better. It would have been very begrudgingly that I'd do e.g. adding two levels above elite, because that was actually a worse system than I was initially proposing and was a lot more work. This is a lot, lot more work but also is better than the initially proposed solution.

I will say with the new added skills, I went from well shit more changes to Shit improving the ground game!

[Ganja]

OK I've slept on it and;

 

1. I don't like raising skills to 170. There are too many potential problems and it's too messy.

2. Other people don't like cutting skills.

3. People want improvements to the ground and clinch and to balance out the fight engine. That wasn't the point of the thread but it came up straight away and has dominated so it's clearly the most important thing to a lot of people.

 

So, I think the best solution is to add two more secondaries. One for ground and one for clinch, or maybe just two for ground. These would be set at 0 points. Adding 2 more skills (when we currently have 21), is conveniently roughly a 10% increase in total available skill points, so someone who has 90% skills now, will have roughly 80% total skills with two additional secondaries added.

 

We would allow people to fill those two new skills up to whatever level they want by taking points from their other skills (probably with some calculation in place to make it relative to their other skills, so a rubbish fighter couldn't add it above 100 points, just like on fighter creation).

 

We can then get this hiddens cap around 78-82% without anyone having to lose any points AND we can improve the detail of the ground game (and maybe clinch if that needs doing too).

 

So if people like that idea, what would the skills be? Split defensive grappling into sub defense and ground control / positioning?

 

Another option would be the addition of a new primary but that's potentially very messy. I'd always intended to add sort of "bonus" skills like karate and judo as a specialism. So it might say has X boxing, X muay thai, x wrestling and x BJJ, with a specialism in Judo. Those would be gained by doing seminars at gyms.

 

So yeah, that's why I don't want to do primaries but I would like to do secondaries. What would people like / is that a goer?

Awesome! Let's do this!

[Showdown]

So Mike, have you decided to add the "Patch" for now? You said that was ready to go, so you could add that immediately, right? And then work on the new secondaries in the meantime? I just wanted to bring it up because I don't think very many people addressed the patch at all, and that seems to be the most immediate thing that would be taking effect. Knowing that the new secondaries will be coming in and negating the need for tickers as we have them now, I don't think people would object to the patch being put in place as early as Monday.

[Goatacre]

OK let's not get into arguing for the sake of it, about an idea we've moved beyond. Let's focus on the idea of adding two more secondaries and we can all work together not against eachother.

 

Sorry, I was just catching up but felt that the ignorant comments (especially from successful managers that could unduly sway others' opinions) needed calling out, otherwise the development of the game would often just move in the direction of the most vocal rather than the astute.

 

Thankfully behind all of this we have you still taking an extremely active interest in how the game develops, which is a very effective counterbalance to the above. (Your choice of pension provider has somehow caused you to move even higher in my estimation, Mike!)

[Goatacre]

OK I've slept on it and;

 

1. I don't like raising skills to 170. There are too many potential problems and it's too messy.

2. Other people don't like cutting skills.

3. People want improvements to the ground and clinch and to balance out the fight engine. That wasn't the point of the thread but it came up straight away and has dominated so it's clearly the most important thing to a lot of people.

 

So, I think the best solution is to add two more secondaries. One for ground and one for clinch, or maybe just two for ground. These would be set at 0 points. Adding 2 more skills (when we currently have 21), is conveniently roughly a 10% increase in total available skill points, so someone who has 90% skills now, will have roughly 80% total skills with two additional secondaries added.

 

We would allow people to fill those two new skills up to whatever level they want by taking points from their other skills (probably with some calculation in place to make it relative to their other skills, so a rubbish fighter couldn't add it above 100 points, just like on fighter creation).

 

We can then get this hiddens cap around 78-82% without anyone having to lose any points AND we can improve the detail of the ground game (and maybe clinch if that needs doing too).

 

So yeah, that's why I don't want to do primaries but I would like to do secondaries. What would people like / is that a goer?

 

Although I had no problem with the previous proposal, I must say I like the sound of this even more as it is a broadening of the appeal of the game combined with fixing the issues that caused the thread to be started.

 

Just to clarify, are you suggesting that people have the opportunity to reallocate their existing skill points from the existing secondaries (presumably secondaries only, not primaries or physicals?) into the new secondaries? Ie no switching points into existing secondaries (I don't see why that would be allowed)

[DougSupreme]

Although I had no problem with the previous proposal, I must say I like the sound of this even more as it is a broadening of the appeal of the game combined with fixing the issues that caused the thread to be started.

 

Just to clarify, are you suggesting that people have the opportunity to reallocate their existing skill points from the existing secondaries (presumably secondaries only, not primaries or physicals?) into the new secondaries? Ie no switching points into existing secondaries (I don't see why that would be allowed)

 

 

Will the addition of new ground secondaries create the impression that Ground Fighters are even HARDER to succeed with? It's believed that ground fighters are difficult to win with at the top levels because there are so many skills they need to be successful. By adding two secondaries for the ground game, doesn't that feed the perception?

[minark]

Will the addition of new ground secondaries create the impression that Ground Fighters are even HARDER to succeed with? It's believed that ground fighters are difficult to win with at the top levels because there are so many skills they need to be successful. By adding two secondaries for the ground game, doesn't that feed the perception?

 

This is what I was thinking. And would adding ground secondaries or clinch secondaries actually make that area more game effective Mike? If so I think we need something to reward wrestlers who don't just take down spam.

[JLP]

Maybe the new ground slider would be defensive orientated. Thereby making it a mandatory add for both strikers and grapplers. Another skill for strikers could be combinations, but make it so having combinations is not required to defend a combination. Which would put another skill sink in for strikers.

 

I think the ground game is slightly less effective because it is a little more spread out and a little harder to figure out slider wise. It looks to me like many ground fighters sliders are set to basically sub spam or lay-n-pray with not much variance in between. The standard control/counter stall sliders most managers use for the bottom work very well for those tactics.

[Eveas]

I like the idea of Mike's compromise and it adds more depth to the game which is great. I don't have time to post my opinions and thoughts atm, but I wanted to at least get that much typed before I head out.

[EzekelRAGE]

I like Mike's new idea and what erik said. Make another stat or two needed for standup and making elbows/knees usable outside the clinch.

[762x39]

Will the addition of new ground secondaries create the impression that Ground Fighters are even HARDER to succeed with? It's believed that ground fighters are difficult to win with at the top levels because there are so many skills they need to be successful. By adding two secondaries for the ground game, doesn't that feed the perception?

I dont think so, he said he was going to change D grapling, to sub defence and position control. So to me that would make it better for the ground guy and harder for the striker. Once the takedown has been got, the striker would more than likely have one or the other but not both. So he has good position control, which to me would be like wrestling, reverses back to the top. Or have sub defence, to keep from getting subbed. That way the ground guy still has a chance at pulling off something. Right now with good D grappling the striker can just wrap up the ground guy and cause a stand up easy enough. I dont have a problem with the way takedowns are now, yes you miss a lot, even with elite. But that is part of it, a takedown is harder to get then a punch. So it makes sence that a person with elite takedown D is harder to takedown, then a person with elite striking D is to punch. So to me that realy doesnt need changed, that way it is not screwing the striker either, but giving the ground guy his edge on the ground just like the striker does standing. I think Mike's newest idea is the best I have heard. I do like the ideas about the extra standing sliders also. maybe split the D grapling and leave the subs alone. Then add a standing slider like the combo's that were mentioned. That way by style fighters get a change.

[762x39]

Dont know why I said combos, I ment the elbows outside clinch mentioned above as an extra slider. Or whatever is best to help the strikers, that way it is even.

[minark]

I dont think so, he said he was going to change D grapling, to sub defence and position control. So to me that would make it better for the ground guy and harder for the striker. Once the takedown has been got, the striker would more than likely have one or the other but not both. So he has good position control, which to me would be like wrestling, reverses back to the top. Or have sub defence, to keep from getting subbed. That way the ground guy still has a chance at pulling off something. Right now with good D grappling the striker can just wrap up the ground guy and cause a stand up easy enough. I dont have a problem with the way takedowns are now, yes you miss a lot, even with elite. But that is part of it, a takedown is harder to get then a punch. So it makes sence that a person with elite takedown D is harder to takedown, then a person with elite striking D is to punch. So to me that realy doesnt need changed, that way it is not screwing the striker either, but giving the ground guy his edge on the ground just like the striker does standing. I think Mike's newest idea is the best I have heard. I do like the ideas about the extra standing sliders also. maybe split the D grapling and leave the subs alone. Then add a standing slider like the combo's that were mentioned. That way by style fighters get a change.

 

I'd like combinations stat only if it increases the accuracy of striking combinations. Striking combinations are unbelievably inaccurate, so if this would be a way to fix that, I'm all for it but otherwise, it'd be extremely useless as combinations are so inaccurate, you hardly see a fight where they're more effective than just throwing single strikes.

 

Also, I like the idea of splitting up defensive grappling, but as far as a clinch stat goes, I'd love to see a clinch form of striking defense and have the original striking defense being just for stand up. Then you would need clinchwork for control and clinch striking defense to defend the knees and elbows. It makes more sense to me and it gives strikers on more thing to worry about on the mat and one more thing to worry about in the clinch. When all is said and done this will even out striking, clinch and ground much more.

 

So my thoughts are to change defensive grappling and make it a sub defense and a positional defense stat for ground, and to also make the clinchwork stat clinch control and add a clinch striking defense. As far as I can see this gives pure kickboxers with takedown defense something to actually worry about when being in a bad situation such as on the ground or in the clinch.

[Rambo]

New Secondary, let's keep it simple: Sub Defense

 

In order to defend GNP: Def Grappling (major), GNP, Wrestling Primary/BJJ Primary, Physicals

In order to defend subs: Sub Defense (major), BJJ Primary, Sub Offense, Def grappling (minor), Physicals

 

Clinch has Clinchwork which I feel covers any positioning/control aspect of the clinch.

 

 

No idea why you keep banging on about realism, as that is an entirely subjective argument to try and ascribe terms such as elite/sensational/exceptional to the skills of real life fighters. Especially baffled what relevance it had to my comment that you quoted directly above is, but probably further demonstrates your own inability to grasp exactly what Mike had proposed.

 

Adding an extra two levels on top of elite will have exactly the same effect on your fighters as compressing the existing levels would have done. Only thing that changes is how those relative descriptions are shown to you, but you don't seem to fathom this at all.

 

Because I was replying to the comment of people rage quitting over stats being decreased. I wouldn't, but I don't like the idea of it because I disagree with people's concept of "Elite" for one, and it's taken me 3+ years to get these fighters skills I.E. punches, kicks, and striking defense to the Elite area. While many others complain that Double Elites and Triple Elites are entirely unacceptable and unrealistic, I disagree, and have a completely different perspective of what this game's Elite means. Granted it's Mike's call, and as I said before apparently it was intended that Elite Boxing meant you're Floyd Mayweather Jr or Manny Pacquiao converting to MMA. While I disagree, it's his game and his call, and I understand the decision being made.