Aggressive vs Counter

[Rambo]

Hit first but with precision. You would think that would be the logical answer to a 100% counter/100% accuracy opponent but it doesn't seem to be. At least not from my experience. Same as power countering doesn't seem to work out too well for me either. No where near the success rate of counter/accuracy at least.

 

There is one punishment though (I think) and that is if the other guy lands a decent amount of his strikes but with more power compared to your 157/157 finger jabs he will usually win a decision right?

 

Used to be: http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=18086

 

 

Not sure how it works now. Imagine close enough to the same. But good luck landing any power strikes vs a top level fighter with a counter/accuracy strategy.

[ajperok]

Was going to say the same thing.....

 

I've seen decent strikerss land only 4/80 strikes while getting hit 358/360. So yeah, your punches score more, and you can win a close fight but some of these are ridiculious.

http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=300329

 

 

 

The problem is- it's not like I try to hit you... then you try to hit me. Even with "counter-striking" especially if you hit like a pussy, there are going to be exchanges of punches where both fighters land blows, because every time you throw a punch, you are more vulnerable. A super quick counter striker might land 3 or 4 shots to someone's one.

 

But think about it. If you knew your opponent was just slapping away... heck, I'd take a few of his shots and just keep coming like Rocky Balboa to land one of mine. You hit a guy in the head 195x. He's not hurt, he's not rocked, he's not cut. Why would he even worry about defense any more? He is just going to run right into your punches just to land a few of his.

 

I think this needs to be evaluated.

[Guest]

While i wouldnt want to see counter striking nerfed into the ground i do think high end counter + high end accuracy needs to be dragged back into line. And i would also like to see the other end of the scale become more apealing.

[ajperok]

Another problem is we have moved well out of the realm of realism.

 

I realize we are MMA and not boxing, but I am checking compu stat and old boxing info.

 

- The least amount of punches landing in a professional 12 round fight

Marques vs Mayweather 69/583. Still he landed an average of 6 per round.

 

- The best accuracy

Jones Jr-Telesco

total: 59%

Roy Jones Jr landed 59% of his punches over a 12 round fight. Considered incredible accuracy.

 

- Most punches landed in a single round

Rocky Gannon - 99

 

- Most punches landed in a 12 round fight

Cecil Espino - 637

 

 

So lets put things into perspective. Those are boxing stats, where all they do is punch.

We have fighters throwing over 100 punches and landing 99%. We have guys missing 100 punches and landing 1.

358/360 landed? ABSURD.

 

Now put this into a MMA profile and it's even more out of whack.

-------

 

 

 

Bottom line is the extremes need to be roped in. 100% accuracy needs to miss more. 100% power needs to hit more. - and if your not hurting a guy, he needs to start landing more punches. You can say "this is a game"... like is always argued whenever a topic comes up. However, Mike has been very responsive to any discussion that have moved us toward realism, so maybe someone should write something up in the improvements section citing some of this info. If not I will do it later.

[Guest]

While i wouldnt want to see counter striking nerfed into the ground i do think high end counter + high end accuracy needs to be dragged back into line. And i would also like to see the other end of the scale become more apealing.

 

This.

 

5 months ago going agressive/accuracy was the ultimate strategy , right now counter-accuracy is the ultimate strategy , like told the OP it's a paper/rock/scissors game any strategy can be beat .

 

And this. Counter\acc is very strong, but there are ways to deal with it. The only real problem here is how undesirable damage is 9 out of 10 times.

[soyster89]

While I agree that counter/accuracy is the popular gameplan, I've lost too many fights this way and can't go 100%/100%. The game scores based on damage, so finger tapping your opponent doesn't typically do much. In addition, I think there's a decent solution for handling counter/accuracy fighters - takedowns and clinches.

[ajperok]

Don't forget how much harder takedowns and clinches are when someone is in 100% counter mode with decent defense.

 

 

 

I personally think the answer lies in...

 

If you hit me in the face 20x, and you don't hurt me at all..... then I am going to abandon defense and start letting myself get hit, just so I can land a punch on you.

Another thing we have is.. why do counters only land after "misses"? That isn't true. We need some punch exchanges where both guys hit each other too.

 

 

 

Frankly, a super aggro fighter coming after a super counter fighter (set to 100% accuracy) should be able to land a few punches, even if he takes a few on the chin to get there. You see this in fighting all the time.

_____________________________

 

I am not talking about "nerfing striking". But lets face it, someday Mike is going to change the 99% striking accuracy just like he is doing with every other think that has been out of a semi-realistic whack. We might as well have a say in a likely inevitable change.

[Skizz81]

AJ,

 

I have an Elite boxing sparbot that I would be willing to use as an experiment for the different ways to counter the 100% counters 100% accuracy. I do not care if I win or lose, so let me know if you want to still give it a try.

[DeadlyDirk]

I am not normally one to complain, but I tend to agree. I used to love aggressive sliders and always had at least some damage. The higher the level of competition the more clear it became that even the slightest bit of damage or aggression and you would miss more than 95% of your shots against a counter guy who would then pepper you with slaps non-stop. It seems the only way to fight is all to the right.

 

I have to say I'm in the same boat, I don't think I've really complained about much to do with the fight engine since I was a noob and didn't know any better but the counter accuracy approach is becoming perhaps slightly over powered. There might well be a 'counter' in itself for it but if there is I don't think many have figured it out yet. I guess the key is to be a fraction more aggressive and a fraction hgiher on the damage just so you're doing a little more and still landing. However if people are going in with 90%+ on the counter then you're still needing to be at 80% counter yourself.

 

Of course you can always try an counter these people with a takedown or a clinch which is fine and certainly one way but if it does turn into a kickboxing bout then there should be more than one way to skin a cat and not mean you simply have to go high counter high accuracy unless you're fighting a can.

 

Now of course it's all well and good pointing out problems, here are a few suggestions which may mean certain fight styles can be more effective, some of which are similiar to what others have suggested.

 

1. Different Tactics Per Round (Still my personal favourite improvement that could be added to the game.)

 

2. A slight change to the meaning of the damage slider. By my understanding 5% damage means ALL of your punches will be thrown with 5% power (Before any SHIG kicks in) I'd like to see that changed to meaning, 95% of your shots are 5% power but 5% of your shots are still power strikes.

 

3. Throwing at the same time as someone else mentioned. If someone is throwing pitter patter slaps at you all fight long and you've given your fighter at least some SHIG then a fighter is going to walk through the slap punches and throw at the same time having a much better chance to land because the other guy is stood in front of him throwing.

 

4. Heavy counter fighters should be punished with energy loss by heavy countering. Missing shots and even takedowns can be pretty tiring admittedly as shown in the game but if all your doing is running around trying to avoid every strike (Blocks seem relatively low, it's mainly feints and dodges) then that's going to take a toll on you as well, expecially if the other guy's a better striker. Right now countering seems to use very little energy.

[sathias]

Accuracy is too accurate. I've had an Elite boxer with Elite striking defence get hit 100% of everything that was thrown at him. It seems a bit unrealistic to me. Both accuracy and counter/aggressive need 75% to become the new 100%, or something similar IMO.

[Guest]

Q: What is the best strategy to beat a striker with high accuracy and high counters?

 

A: Takedowns

[repe]

The impact of counter really needs to be lowered. Maybe make it like takedown spam, your counter misses more if you are going full counter while your opponent is mildly aggressive as he should be able to time his shots well and carefully pick his shots instead of just rushing in like a dumbass and takes 30 counter slaps for that.

 

Or perhaps, just lower the success rate of counter. It seems so damn easy to counter nowadays and the defensive bonus tend to be too much sometime. One time, I did a 45% aggressive(that fighter has high confidence so he is more aggressive than 45%) + 100% accuracy against a heavy counter striker with a striker that isn't too far away from my opponent in terms of striking ability. Just because I am aggressive, I miss a ton even with 100% accuracy and the only logical explanation is that the defensive boost of counter mode is just too much.

 

 

+ 1

Good post!

[WildBoar]

I never post on the forums, but I often take a look at what is going on. Here is the simple solution to aggro vs counter. Number 1 and only 1: setting 100% counter should not mean you actually counter 100% of the time, whether your opponent hits or misses, just as 100% accuracy doesn't mean they hit every shot they throw. In real life lame ass counter punchers with no power aka Michael Bisping, etc., do not counter every time as they know they are leaving themselves open to a counter-counter, if you will..... even KO kings like Liddell who was a counter puncher did not counter every shot, watch him and others, they take their time trying to get the right angle, distance and timing down. Playing the counter game in real life is very risky unless you have a chin, cause if someone times your counter with a feint, you get KTFO. Therefore, 100% counter should only actually counter maybe 10-20% of the time. Furthermore, them avoiding contact constantly and dodging around the cage while not engaging should A-) be scored very very low by judges and the more aggressive fighter has effective cage control, therefore scores higher and B-) The counter/runner strategy as stated above with only 10-20% of time actually engaging should have the ref give warnings for not engaging, evading, etc. until there is a point deduction and then finally a DQ for the evader. If a guy does not fight in real MMA, he is warned, warned again, loses a point and then is DQ'd. Plus as stated above even an agressive power puncher should be able to throw feints to draw his opponent into countering, leaving that 100% counter douche to get blasted in the chops. I think adding a feint slider may be another way to help along with the losing points from the judges and the ref, etc.... So there you have it. PM me in game if you think this is a good idea, as I won't be on the boards for a while here. WildBoar - AKA Seamus O'Connell 19091. Cheers!~

[Guest]

The top end of counter/accuracy needs to be sorted out for sure, I'm sure it's hard to find the right balance but at the moment there is literally only one way to move these sliders.

 

 

Also takedowns are such a dumb answer to this problem, the problem is nothing to do with takedowns, it's in the stand up aspect of the game. So every boxer/MT fighter with no takedowns needs to now train his takedowns up to exceptional or higher, and still maintain his striking skills, oh and I guess he will need to train some GnP or subs aswell.... doh, I'm sure this will be a really viable answer with the new changes in place, not.

 

So please stop with the 'take him down' rubbish, it has no relevance with what is even being talked about.

[Eveas]

Shoot TD's on me all you like. When I go full counter you will still miss 39 out of 40 and sometimes even worse.

[skintchicken]

I have to say I'm in the same boat, I don't think I've really complained about much to do with the fight engine since I was a noob and didn't know any better but the counter accuracy approach is becoming perhaps slightly over powered. There might well be a 'counter' in itself for it but if there is I don't think many have figured it out yet. I guess the key is to be a fraction more aggressive and a fraction hgiher on the damage just so you're doing a little more and still landing. However if people are going in with 90%+ on the counter then you're still needing to be at 80% counter yourself.

 

Of course you can always try an counter these people with a takedown or a clinch which is fine and certainly one way but if it does turn into a kickboxing bout then there should be more than one way to skin a cat and not mean you simply have to go high counter high accuracy unless you're fighting a can.

 

Now of course it's all well and good pointing out problems, here are a few suggestions which may mean certain fight styles can be more effective, some of which are similiar to what others have suggested.

 

1. Different Tactics Per Round (Still my personal favourite improvement that could be added to the game.)

 

2. A slight change to the meaning of the damage slider. By my understanding 5% damage means ALL of your punches will be thrown with 5% power (Before any SHIG kicks in) I'd like to see that changed to meaning, 95% of your shots are 5% power but 5% of your shots are still power strikes.

 

3. Throwing at the same time as someone else mentioned. If someone is throwing pitter patter slaps at you all fight long and you've given your fighter at least some SHIG then a fighter is going to walk through the slap punches and throw at the same time having a much better chance to land because the other guy is stood in front of him throwing.

 

4. Heavy counter fighters should be punished with energy loss by heavy countering. Missing shots and even takedowns can be pretty tiring admittedly as shown in the game but if all your doing is running around trying to avoid every strike (Blocks seem relatively low, it's mainly feints and dodges) then that's going to take a toll on you as well, expecially if the other guy's a better striker. Right now countering seems to use very little energy.

 

post of the year. i agree with everything in this post, but esp. points 1 and 2.

 

mike, allowing us to set different sliders for each round is the most needed improvement in the game, imo. we've been changing things due to the need of more realism in the game, but i can't think of much of anything as realistic as having a different strategy for each round.

[Guest]

Shoot TD's on me all you like. When I go full counter you will still miss 39 out of 40 and sometimes even worse.

 

Well, counter TD is a possibility. Since both are on full counter mode, any of them will occasionally throw a hit and if the striker hit and was taken down by a counter TD, then the grappler wins that round. Heck, I guess that will be 3 rounds of probability battle, with luck more than slider skill at that point.

 

Also, I don't see different strategy per round helping this situation. Let's say fighter A go 3 rounds of full counter against a striking-oriented fighter B. How should B set up his slider for that 3 rounds then(with no clinch and ground game)?

[Guest]

Shoot TD's on me all you like. When I go full counter you will still miss 39 out of 40 and sometimes even worse.

 

I might miss some, even quite a few. But I will land one a round, and the slaps you threw before hand won't be enough to swing the decision.

[Rambo]

I'm not saying they need to be equal, like aggressive vs counter should have this perfect balance. Let's face it, counter striking is the safe way to go, it is the smart thing to do. But like most here, in this game I just think it's unrealistic and a tad bit empowered. I think stats/primarys/secondarys/hiddens should come into play when determining the succeess of those aggressive/counter strategy's. If my guy has higher speed, agility, higher punch technique then you have striking defense, there's no reason you should be able to counter slap me successfully 9 out of 10 times. Same as if my fighter has hgher speed, agility, striking defense, punch technique, you shouldn't be able to tag me 100% of the time with a 100% accuracy strategy if I'm trying to counter you and avoid you.

 

How successful was Shane Roller vs Melvin Guillard? Mevlin Aggressive vs Shane counter. Superior striker vs inferior striker.

 

 

There's plenty of fights and shit that just completely negate my example lol but I just think things like this should be taken into consideration. Maybe they have? Maybe the #'s implemented into the coding of things are on point, I don't know.

 

 

 

I still think the different tactics per round thing is a little overboard.

[skintchicken]

I'm not saying they need to be equal, like aggressive vs counter should have this perfect balance. Let's face it, counter striking is the safe way to go, it is the smart thing to do. But like most here, in this game I just think it's unrealistic and a tad bit empowered. I think stats/primarys/secondarys/hiddens should come into play when determining the succeess of those aggressive/counter strategy's. If my guy has higher speed, agility, higher punch technique then you have striking defense, there's no reason you should be able to counter slap me successfully 9 out of 10 times. Same as if my fighter has hgher speed, agility, striking defense, punch technique, you shouldn't be able to tag me 100% of the time with a 100% accuracy strategy if I'm trying to counter you and avoid you.

 

How successful was Shane Roller vs Melvin Guillard? Mevlin Aggressive vs Shane counter. Superior striker vs inferior striker.

 

 

There's plenty of fights and shit that just completely negate my example lol but I just think things like this should be taken into consideration. Maybe they have? Maybe the #'s implemented into the coding of things are on point, I don't know.

 

 

 

I still think the different tactics per round thing is a little overboard.

 

the great thing about the different sliders for each round thing is that if you don't like them you could still just set your sliders for the fight and be done with it. just b/c something is implemented doesn't mean it has to be used by everyone.

[RodrigoMachado]

Lyoto Machida is a great counter striker and he didn't land shit in the 1st round against Rashad Evans. And he was, comparing to MMA Tycoon, at "100% counter".

 

Great counter strikers don't land all the time, they wait. So this 100% perfect and present counter striking system is unrealistic. It doesn't need to be "nerfed", it needs to be CHANGED.

 

And the change I propose is - even if you are a great counter striker, you will not counter every defended strike: you may defend many but will only counter a few. You will make WAY less moves overall. I think this solves the problem.

[MrClean]

While I do not disagree that there is a problem, I see a lot of guys in here moaning about people going too high counter/accuracy and (in my best whiny voice) "so I have to go high counter/accuracy too", "it's the only way to set sliders"

 

How about throwing a little power in with your accuracy. Quit crying about a problem and continue being part of it. I hate decisions. I would rather lose a close fight because I went for the KO than win one slapping my oppponent like a little bitch. Now....if only I had some fighters with real KO power to go with that attitude.

[Eveas]

How about throwing a little power in with your accuracy.

Because you end up missing 99% of your shots if you do. Especially if the other guy is taller than you. You gotta hit them to hurt them. If I have enough of an advantage in striking I add more power. I tend to set it based on my opponent. I look at their past opponents accuracy against them on a fight by fight basis. But, when I see guys whose opponents only average 10% then I know I need accuracy/counter just to survive long enough to clinch or shoot.

[ajperok]

I was thinking about this a bit tonite, and I like most peoples suggestions.... just a few others to throw out.

 

1) punch exchanges. It's not always he swings then he swings. Sometimes it's "this guy lands a big body shot and that guy counters with a 2 punch combo at the same time". You can counter punches that land, not just punches that miss.

This goes for the 100% aggro/accuracy leg kicker type too... yeah, you have kicked me 30X, but if it doesn't hurt I'm going to start countering right through those leg kicks.

 

2) Aggressive also should mean willing to take punches to land one. We see this in real life all the time. Some brawler willing to take 2 or 3 punches just to land just one. I mentioned this above, but after I get hit 30x and take no damage, I am going to start coming right thru those punches just to land a few. If he is already hitting at 90+%, why even bother trying to defend? Most strike percentage should increase as I realize I don't have to defend if he can't really hurt me.

 

 

 

Along with some of the other ideas, I think if these two are looked at we could have a nice improvement.

 

 

But the bottom line is you don't have fights where one fighter lands 360/365 strikes and another lands like 2/100. Those extremes need to come in a bit.

[Nemesis84]

95% of my recent losses (and there has been a lot of them!) have come from being counter punched to death. I even fear to have my Elite- Boxer go into a fight with more then 40% damage and 40% Aggressive now because I am so aware of the counter stratagy which has just taken my guys apart against fighters with no boxing at all.

 

I find now if I don't go low Aggro/high Accuracy I may as well not bother in the stand up game which is a real shame as I used to love going in their throwing bombs and getting the big KO finish.