Aggressive vs Counter

[Eveas]

I used to wonder the same thing (and apparently so did steven seagal) until Silva and then Machida (jumping) both used front kicks to finish fights.

 

Too close you say?........not always

Couture was just following Machida at the perfect kicking range the whole fight. Vitor was also not his usual aggressive self and was taking the more counter approach also standing at a perfect kick range. Neither fighter was in their face at the time of the kick or really at any time in the fight.

[Guest]

Couture was just following Machida at the perfect kicking range the whole fight. Vitor was also not his usual aggressive self and was taking the more counter approach also standing at a perfect kick range. Neither fighter was in their face at the time of the kick or really at any time in the fight.

 

 

I am just going to leave this here as a display of when even attempting an offensive moves becomes a major liability in against high counter tactics. For both fighters in this match seeing your name first in a line causes tension because the chances of your aggro move being a good thing was far smaller than seeing the other guy try and do something you could counter.

 

 

http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentarypbp.php?FTID=326937

 

It is a recent example but I had probably close to 100 other PbP demonstrating the same thing from my stable alone.

[Guest]

Being a newb myself, I start to understand loads of things, reading this post.

 

Is Mike aware of that ?

I mean, really, he did not contribute to that post, meaning maybe he does not know how annoying it is (I mean, high priority annoying)...

[ajperok]

I am just going to leave this here as a display of when even attempting an offensive moves becomes a major liability in against high counter tactics. For both fighters in this match seeing your name first in a line causes tension because the chances of your aggro move being a good thing was far smaller than seeing the other guy try and do something you could counter.

 

 

http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentarypbp.php?FTID=326937

 

It is a recent example but I had probably close to 100 other PbP demonstrating the same thing from my stable alone.

 

I agree, seeing your name first in the PbP .....

 

It's a problem the counter can be so accurate, while the offensive attack from the same guy is nowhere near that accurate. Especially knowing the damage is set the same.

[Guest]

What about a range or depth slider? Seems like that would solve this issue pretty effectively wouldnt it? That way AJPerok could rush through the pitter patter punches like he wants to to get inside. But he'd have to be very carefull not to meet a hard puncher consistently waiting from the perimeter to catch him rushing in.

[skintchicken]

What about a range or depth slider? Seems like that would solve this issue pretty effectively wouldnt it? That way AJPerok could rush through the pitter patter punches like he wants to to get inside. But he'd have to be very carefull not to meet a hard puncher consistently waiting from the perimeter to catch him rushing in.

 

nice idea.

[Guest]

I have to admit the numbers are absurd and 100% counter seems to convenient to be true, but did anyone bring in discussion the swing for fences slider, I don't know how it would work for high pbp fights but for sure it would be something to exploit in average fighters bouts

 

I'd really like to face a fighter with 100% counter/100% acc and push 100% swing for fences at the earliest moment possible, that would be an interesting experiment

[jbrookins]

mike have any responses to this?

[ajperok]

there are probably a lot of answers to tweaking this...

 

for example.

 

You would think if one guy was 80% counter and another guy was 100% counter, the fighter at 80% might actually be the one who had the advantage.

- He is already being rather selective in his punches

- Knowing his opponent is 100% counter, he could be even more selective

 

However, it doesn't seem to work that way.

 

----

Don't get me wrong. I use the counter style a lot, depending on the situations. I just think the high aggro setting should have some usefulness too, and at this point I don't really see much.

[djohn]

 

2. A slight change to the meaning of the damage slider. By my understanding 5% damage means ALL of your punches will be thrown with 5% power (Before any SHIG kicks in) I'd like to see that changed to meaning, 95% of your shots are 5% power but 5% of your shots are still power strikes.

 

Didn't read the entire thread, and prolly won't come back to it... Hell I don't even know that I'll be playing much longer, but the above quoted needs to be seen. I've wanted this change for a long time... not just becuz Counter Accuracy is almost impossible to work around, but becuz the above is WAY more realistic than our current set up. In RL you don't see Rampage Jackson KO'ing a guy in two shots in one fight, then in the next one hitting someone 300 times with pillow hands. Guys stand up strategy changes, but not to the degree that is possible in Tycoon. Power should be determined by hidden, not by slider. The Slider should only be dictating how many punches on average your committing to putting all your power behind. If I'm at 50% damage, that should mean just about Every Other Shot I'm looking to either put you away, or do some damage. If I'm at 70% accuracy then on average 7 of every 10 shots I throw would be feelers/set up shots, for the other 3 of 10 to lower the boom. If a guy has heavy hands, even if he starts trying to be countery and elusive, and is just trying to make contact rather than Donkeypunch KO you, it's still gonna hurt, and if it lands right, it's gonna be a KO Shot. On the other end of the scale, some guys just have pillow hands. Then can swing for the fences all they want (80% + damage) And they might get a Freak KO now and again, but they're never gonna be Knock-out Artists unless they just fight Dustin Hazelett over and over again.

[Guest]

Didn't read the entire thread, and prolly won't come back to it... Hell I don't even know that I'll be playing much longer, but the above quoted needs to be seen. I've wanted this change for a long time... not just becuz Counter Accuracy is almost impossible to work around, but becuz the above is WAY more realistic than our current set up. In RL you don't see Rampage Jackson KO'ing a guy in two shots in one fight, then in the next one hitting someone 300 times with pillow hands. Guys stand up strategy changes, but not to the degree that is possible in Tycoon. Power should be determined by hidden, not by slider. The Slider should only be dictating how many punches on average your committing to putting all your power behind. If I'm at 50% damage, that should mean just about Every Other Shot I'm looking to either put you away, or do some damage. If I'm at 70% accuracy then on average 7 of every 10 shots I throw would be feelers/set up shots, for the other 3 of 10 to lower the boom. If a guy has heavy hands, even if he starts trying to be countery and elusive, and is just trying to make contact rather than Donkeypunch KO you, it's still gonna hurt, and if it lands right, it's gonna be a KO Shot. On the other end of the scale, some guys just have pillow hands. Then can swing for the fences all they want (80% + damage) And they might get a Freak KO now and again, but they're never gonna be Knock-out Artists unless they just fight Dustin Hazelett over and over again.

A very good post indeed. Not sure how it all works now? But that system sounds like a very realistic one.

[PBR]

Didn't read the entire thread, and prolly won't come back to it... Hell I don't even know that I'll be playing much longer, but the above quoted needs to be seen. I've wanted this change for a long time... not just becuz Counter Accuracy is almost impossible to work around, but becuz the above is WAY more realistic than our current set up. In RL you don't see Rampage Jackson KO'ing a guy in two shots in one fight, then in the next one hitting someone 300 times with pillow hands. Guys stand up strategy changes, but not to the degree that is possible in Tycoon. Power should be determined by hidden, not by slider. The Slider should only be dictating how many punches on average your committing to putting all your power behind. If I'm at 50% damage, that should mean just about Every Other Shot I'm looking to either put you away, or do some damage. If I'm at 70% accuracy then on average 7 of every 10 shots I throw would be feelers/set up shots, for the other 3 of 10 to lower the boom. If a guy has heavy hands, even if he starts trying to be countery and elusive, and is just trying to make contact rather than Donkeypunch KO you, it's still gonna hurt, and if it lands right, it's gonna be a KO Shot. On the other end of the scale, some guys just have pillow hands. Then can swing for the fences all they want (80% + damage) And they might get a Freak KO now and again, but they're never gonna be Knock-out Artists unless they just fight Dustin Hazelett over and over again.

 

this is the way i thought the slider worked --- not till a few months back did i realize i was looking at it the wrong way (or maybe the way it should be) -- at no time did i think 80% acc meant i threw everything at 20% power -- it just didnt make sense to me -- no one throws everything at the same power

[skintchicken]

Didn't read the entire thread, and prolly won't come back to it... Hell I don't even know that I'll be playing much longer, but the above quoted needs to be seen. I've wanted this change for a long time... not just becuz Counter Accuracy is almost impossible to work around, but becuz the above is WAY more realistic than our current set up. In RL you don't see Rampage Jackson KO'ing a guy in two shots in one fight, then in the next one hitting someone 300 times with pillow hands. Guys stand up strategy changes, but not to the degree that is possible in Tycoon. Power should be determined by hidden, not by slider. The Slider should only be dictating how many punches on average your committing to putting all your power behind. If I'm at 50% damage, that should mean just about Every Other Shot I'm looking to either put you away, or do some damage. If I'm at 70% accuracy then on average 7 of every 10 shots I throw would be feelers/set up shots, for the other 3 of 10 to lower the boom. If a guy has heavy hands, even if he starts trying to be countery and elusive, and is just trying to make contact rather than Donkeypunch KO you, it's still gonna hurt, and if it lands right, it's gonna be a KO Shot. On the other end of the scale, some guys just have pillow hands. Then can swing for the fences all they want (80% + damage) And they might get a Freak KO now and again, but they're never gonna be Knock-out Artists unless they just fight Dustin Hazelett over and over again.

 

i love this idea. you did a great way of explaining it. let's hope it comes to fruition in the game.

[soyster89]

Didn't read the entire thread, and prolly won't come back to it... Hell I don't even know that I'll be playing much longer, but the above quoted needs to be seen. I've wanted this change for a long time... not just becuz Counter Accuracy is almost impossible to work around, but becuz the above is WAY more realistic than our current set up. In RL you don't see Rampage Jackson KO'ing a guy in two shots in one fight, then in the next one hitting someone 300 times with pillow hands. Guys stand up strategy changes, but not to the degree that is possible in Tycoon. Power should be determined by hidden, not by slider. The Slider should only be dictating how many punches on average your committing to putting all your power behind. If I'm at 50% damage, that should mean just about Every Other Shot I'm looking to either put you away, or do some damage. If I'm at 70% accuracy then on average 7 of every 10 shots I throw would be feelers/set up shots, for the other 3 of 10 to lower the boom. If a guy has heavy hands, even if he starts trying to be countery and elusive, and is just trying to make contact rather than Donkeypunch KO you, it's still gonna hurt, and if it lands right, it's gonna be a KO Shot. On the other end of the scale, some guys just have pillow hands. Then can swing for the fences all they want (80% + damage) And they might get a Freak KO now and again, but they're never gonna be Knock-out Artists unless they just fight Dustin Hazelett over and over again.

 

This is how I originally thought it worked as well, then learned otherwise. I think this would be a great change to the game.

[DeadlyDirk]

Yep, may be my own idea but makes total sense to me, nobody throw every strike with the same power, as I said you can use SHIG to have an impact on this but you shouldn't have to give your fighter free roam in the clinch and on the ground just because you want him to mix up his strikes a little more.

 

A seperate SHIG slider for standing, clinch and ground would be a similiar solution.

[Grasman]

Didn't read the entire thread, and prolly won't come back to it... Hell I don't even know that I'll be playing much longer, but the above quoted needs to be seen. I've wanted this change for a long time... not just becuz Counter Accuracy is almost impossible to work around, but becuz the above is WAY more realistic than our current set up. In RL you don't see Rampage Jackson KO'ing a guy in two shots in one fight, then in the next one hitting someone 300 times with pillow hands. Guys stand up strategy changes, but not to the degree that is possible in Tycoon. Power should be determined by hidden, not by slider. The Slider should only be dictating how many punches on average your committing to putting all your power behind. If I'm at 50% damage, that should mean just about Every Other Shot I'm looking to either put you away, or do some damage. If I'm at 70% accuracy then on average 7 of every 10 shots I throw would be feelers/set up shots, for the other 3 of 10 to lower the boom. If a guy has heavy hands, even if he starts trying to be countery and elusive, and is just trying to make contact rather than Donkeypunch KO you, it's still gonna hurt, and if it lands right, it's gonna be a KO Shot. On the other end of the scale, some guys just have pillow hands. Then can swing for the fences all they want (80% + damage) And they might get a Freak KO now and again, but they're never gonna be Knock-out Artists unless they just fight Dustin Hazelett over and over again.

I find it ridiculous if it isn't like this?

 

Realism my arse!

 

What's the point of making training with ultra realism, when the actual fighting is as stupid as it seems?

 

This needs to be fixed ASAP, as this is a 100 x more important than any training tweak!

 

WTF!

[Guest]

Being at 90% acc doesn't actually mean every shot is thrown with the same force. There's a roll involved in every one of them.

[Eveas]

Being at 90% acc doesn't actually mean every shot is thrown with the same force. There's a roll involved in every one of them.

According to Mike under the current system it actually does mean every shot is thrown with 10% force.

[jacky67]

this is the way i thought the slider worked --- not till a few months back did i realize i was looking at it the wrong way (or maybe the way it should be) -- at no time did i think 80% acc meant i threw everything at 20% power -- it just didnt make sense to me -- no one throws everything at the same power

 

 

I don't think it work with 80% power ,

 

i think it work a mixed of the both , ur strike are a bit more powerful but you still mix with accurate strike .

[Guest]

According to Mike under the current system it actually does mean every shot is thrown with 10% force.

 

Yea but there must still be random factors involved, I'm sure there are some rolls determining how hard that actual punch was/how well it landed with the damage % being some baseline.

[MMATycoon]

I'll look into this over the next couple of weeks for you guys and keep you posted on the spoiler page if I change anything. I might pop back into here and discuss some stuff - I haven't actually read through the thread yet.

[Guest]

I'll look into this over the next couple of weeks for you guys and keep you posted on the spoiler page if I change anything. I might pop back into here and discuss some stuff - I haven't actually read through the thread yet.

 

Don't do it Mike..... the people that only 100% counter will say its not enjoyable cos they can now lose and threaten to quit!!!! Lmfao

 

Sorry, had to do that....

 

Would be nice to come out 'a la Wanderlei' to knock someone out or fall trying and win

[MMATycoon]

According to Mike under the current system it actually does mean every shot is thrown with 10% force.

I did just +1 this post but yes, there is random involved in it too.

 

Basically it's random number * all the physical stuff * this tactic * some other bits and pieces. So this tactic is the most important part in determining damage - moreso than physicals / hiddens.

[ajperok]

I did just +1 this post but yes, there is random involved in it too.

 

Basically it's random number * all the physical stuff * this tactic * some other bits and pieces. So this tactic is the most important part in determining damage - moreso than physicals / hiddens.

 

 

Well that makes a difference knowing that. If the variation is wide enough, then that punch power slider isn't as different as people are recommending.

[Guest]

Everything isn't thrown at the same force, as stated above. There needs to be a slider setting involved when working with damage / accuracy. Although the random component involved isn't all that powerful, strength of punches are determined by the slider more than anything else.

One way to even things out is to amp up importance of predictability factor when a guy has 100% counter. In reality, also stated above, a guy going 20/80 have usually (and always if he's smart) has an advantage over opponent going 100% counter. Because he's unpredictable, basically.

 

Noone knows when Andersson Silva decides to go in, for example. And it is rare, and all the more powerful. There should be strong defensive bonus for going counter, no doubt.

The advantage of the 100% counter guy has over the 80/20 guy should diminish over the course of rounds. In the first round however, he should have the advantage. Takes time to see what the other guy is good at, and to sort of reinforce ones hypothesis about his gameplan with external evidence (being how he fights).

 

I'm getting the feeling the solution to this problem lies in adding another slider for standup, to bring the beat back in the standup department!! :smile_anim:

 

Edit: Some guys actually do throw averything with basically the same force. Many MMA guys DONT use fast/light puches to set up the bigger ones. Although all skilled boxers do it.