elbows worthless?

[ajperok]

Isn't that a fact in RL too?

 

Punches both out throw and out land elbows in mos t cases.

It's nto a smart clinch slider setting to be overly aggressive with the elbows, make them count.

The best setting for punches isn't the same as the best setting fro Elbows.

Therefore there should be more variety in the available sliders for the clinch imo.

 

 

so your answer is punches are simply better... so fuck elbows?

 

 

Great Answer!

[ajperok]

Lol everyone always complains when they can't succeed at a certain aspect of the game, or if everything doesn't happen exactly how they expect/want it to happen. I see no problem with knees and elbows, In fact i finished my last fight while using basically only knees...

 

Can't succeed? Who the fuck is talking about that?

 

I have more than succeeded I have had the #2 fighter in the game, been in the top 20 etc.

 

I'm just saying elbows suck, and shouldn't be inferior to punches in the clinch, and now people are just making up excuses because they probably have fighters with elite punches and know it's an engine flaw.

[Grasman]

so your answer is punches are simply better... so fuck elbows?

 

 

Great Answer!

 

What i am saying is that i am using Punches, Elbows and Knees very successfully with my fighters that have them all, simple as that,

IMO those complaining about Elbows simply don't know how to set the clinch sliders to use them effectively.

 

But do complain away mate, as any enhancement into elbows plays right into my hands

[MMATycoon]

The damage difference doesnt really matter when you dont hit - to ko/cut someone you need consecutive hits most often, not to mention that hitting in clinch seems to take away targets next action, so hitting lets you hit more. There have been matches posted to support the cause, by various people including me. To be honest, you have 1 fighter who uses elbows without a shadow of success and there is almost no record of elbows being used by or against your fighters. I dont want to be mean, but what you saying appears like pure theorycrafting absent of actual experience and thus holds no water.

Cuts don't work like that. Either a shot causes a cut or it doesn't - it doesn't look at damage done already. Once you're cut then that's a different story and previous cut damage does matter.

[Guest]

Cuts don't work like that. Either a shot causes a cut or it doesn't - it doesn't look at damage done already. Once you're cut then that's a different story and previous cut damage does matter.

But as far as Im aware damage done per hit is influenced by the energy difference between the fighters - successive hits cause big energy difference which causes the subsequent hits do more damage (ergo, in theory increasing chance to cut). At least thats how I always explained the snowballing effect of striking in the first round and KOs vs granite chins/with low power...

 

Thank you for the info.

[MMATycoon]

The energy difference would affect who moves, but I don't think it affects the damage done from an individual shot. Same sort of outcome but different methodology.

[ajperok]

For the record.

 

I still see no reason to train elbows or knees.

 

The only reason would be that you have already maxed out punches to 15.

 

Was sort of hoping this would change.

[Umberts]

http://mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=467038

 

ELBOWS FTW!

[Guest]

Let me give you a vision of your future. This is under old training, so you will be faster, but still this isnt exactly a slow learner:

 

http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp298/xfenix666/mmat2/projectfighter.png

 

Now my agi and speed will be your str and cond with a tiny amount of free sessions. Thats 22 and nowhere near ready to fight, the sparring takes way too long, especially on non-aptitude skills. Would have already been fighting if he started with MT instead

 

Hey Xyel just wanted to ask, your guy has very good physicals, and I see that at the time you took that snapshot he was doing 2 CT sessions per week with 3 sparring sessions. Is that enough to keep the physicals from declining?

[Fade2black]

Was height difference ever mentioned in this thread,

 

For the record I think the MT - Boxing differential in the clinch should be expanded in favor of MT to make up for the time taken to learn it

 

And i think that MT strikes to the body should Be subdivided into knees and punches

[Guest]

http://www.mmatycoon.com/fighterprofilemanager.php?FID=186016

[ajperok]

IF YOU CAN'T GRASP THIS CONCEPT, DON'T POST.

 

I have fighters with

14 Muay Thai- 14 elbows and 12 Boxing- 8 punch

Not only do the punches land at a higher success rate than elbows they do more damage AND you can use them in standup.

 

Now here is the hard part, some of you can't seem to grasp:

I am not saying you can't win with elbows. (I have over 100 wins with elbows, thank you). I am saying, elbows are inferior to punches in the clinch. Not because I am losing to punchers, but because my punches are better than my elbows, get it?

Since elbows are "only" in the clinch, you would think they would have some edge?

 

 

Instead, it appear the game is intended that the only edge you will get from training elbows would be if both fighters were the same in punches, then the one with the higher elbows would have an advantage of course.

 

So unless you have a guy with higher elbows/knees than punches, you really don't know what your talking about.

 

 

 

I am ok with this going forward, just pissed off it took 2+ years to find out. Well damn me for trying to build a different type of fighter.

[ajperok]

http://mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=467038

 

ELBOWS FTW!

 

YOU THREW 3 PUNCHES IN THE CLINCH... LANDED ALL.

 

So that somehow proves elbows are better?

 

 

 

 

.... just not getting it.

[Guest]

http://mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=467038

 

ELBOWS FTW!

 

Why do you people flaunt fights with new, unfinished fighters as some sort of conclusive proof of, well, anything?

[Guest]

It is my experience as a manager with some high level clinch fighters that elbows and especially knees are harder to land than punches on high level fighters.

[Guest]

http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=468793

 

The question not being asked, and maybe the only real important question, is what is the value of landing 12 punches vs. 4 elbows/knees?

 

In the fight above, I believe I outlanded my opponent 12 punches to his 2 knees and 2 elbows in the 1st with neutral standup. I lost the round. If that's accurate, then the issue of %landing is an aesthetic one.

 

It looks wonky to see one fighter landing high % of punches. But if the results reflect the intuitive idea that elbows and knees are the better damage and scoring tools despite lower landing rates, then it isn't a problem.

 

And it fits, I think, with the clinch game in RL MMA. Some dirty boxing on the inside has a lot of pitter patter taps that land. But a knee or elbow to the head is usually a very significant strike. Without the differential in the flavor text of this game to distinguish between the impact of the strikes, it leaves us guessing.

[Erik]

I just went and dissected one of my fighters (link: http://www.mmatycoon.com/fighterprofilemanager.php?FID=107161 - Erik Ragnaar) last 8 fights

 

A shade over half were significantly impacted by knees or elbows

 

- Ragnaar vs Freyr, first knee in the clinch and Freyr is gassed.

- Ragnaar vs Gunn III, Ragnaar gassed from a knee in the clinch at around 2:10

- Ragnaar vs Mandragoran II, Mandragoran is gassed after the first knee in the clinch at around 1:05

- Ragnaar vs Gunn II, Gunn gassed off a body kick in the first - no significant knees or elbows (though Ragnaar's only cutting blow of the fight was an elbow).

- Ragnaar vs Mandragoran I, No clinch, thus - no significant knees or elbows.

- Ragnaar vs Hume, Hume gassed after a knee in round 2.

- Ragnaar vs Badass, dirty boxing kills - no significant knees or elbows.

- Ragnaar vs Schkelpt, the last cutting strike is an elbow and Schkelpt gets gassed from a knee.

 

The conclusion I've reached: knees are awesome, elbows aren't great but they aren't totally useless - Ragnaar's elbows are vastly inferior to his punches in most of these ones and they still do some reasonable damage. Say what you will about the fighters involved, it may not be the absolute highest level but it's not can crushing.

[ajperok]

However, an addition to that conclusion is...

Knees and Elbows are superior to not having them at all.

 

But if you think you can crank elbows or knees way up at the expense of punches, and have some advantage over someone with just cranked up punches your mistaken.

 

 

and yes, I have several fighters with 15 clinchwork and 15 elbows.

Some of those same fighters have only 10 punch (because they were MT kickers). They land the punches at at least the same % or higher, and "it looks" as though their is no significant difference in damage.

[soyster89]

It's easier to land punches than it is elbows or knees - but elbows cut the hell out of opponents and knees take away the opponents will to live. If elbows and knees were jacked up, the game would be severely impacted I believe.

[Erik]

It's easier to land punches than it is elbows or knees - but elbows cut the hell out of opponents and knees take away the opponents will to live. If elbows and knees were jacked up, the game would be severely impacted I believe.

 

I think a minor increase to the effectiveness of elbows, along with a minor decrease to cut tendencies in general would be a good thing.

 

But it'd have to be quite carefully done.

 

 

However, an addition to that conclusion is...

Knees and Elbows are superior to not having them at all.

 

But if you think you can crank elbows or knees way up at the expense of punches, and have some advantage over someone with just cranked up punches your mistaken.

 

Well yeah, even in Muay Thai they throw a fair volume of punches from the clinch.

[Fade2black]

I think additions to clinch MT and takedowns would go a long way at this point

[Erik]

I think additions to clinch MT and takedowns would go a long way at this point

 

Clinch MT needs to include punches.

Clinch dirty box needs to include knees to the legs.

Takedowns from the clinch are pretty ok IMO.

Elbows should improve GNP.

 

Just my take.

[WarMachine]

Thanks for all the info in this thread.

 

I understand the importance of knees, and elbows and I'm going to train them up on my K-1 fighters but only after punches and kicks and striking defence.

[Rambo]

It is my experience as a manager with some high level clinch fighters that elbows and especially knees are harder to land than punches on high level fighters.

 

 

Just like submissions.

[ajperok]

Just like submissions.

 

When was the last time to really top notch fighters had a bout end in submission? I don't even really even think about it.

I lost more fights vs Black belts by setting my sliders carefully to avoid submissions, then I ever did by just ignoring the possibility I may get subbed.