Keeping an eye on the fight engine since the changes

[JLP]

http://www.mmatycoon...php?FTID=600128

i dont really understand how this is even possible.. last three rounds. are you kidding me. thats good fight engine:D

 

 

Yeah, that was pretty brutal. I didn't go in thinking I had much chance of winning. Pat has deteriorated so much in the last three months, I don't think he can beat any grappler with a decent chin now. I got my hopes up when I got a magical successful clinch attempt in the first and then winded him there. I was hoping I had enough of an energy advantage to keep ahead at that point and get back into the clinch. I was like 1 of 10 in my clinch attempts. Clinch is thoroughly dead, but I've known that for a more than a few months now.

It also sucks for clincher that spamming TD's in the clinch will eventually get the grappler back to a standing position too through a failed TD. Engine rewards a failed action in that instance.

[PBR]

That's why I said "most of the time". I didn't give a specific percentage, but I would say it's over 75%-80% so pointing out one example where it doesn't go the way my general perception is doesn't really mean much to me.

Probably the worst aspect of this community when you talk about the engine is that people will post a fight or two that goes against an overwhelming trend and act as if it makes whatever you are saying irrelevant. When the game simulates as many fights as this one does there is no absolutes, anything can and will happen.

 

posted couple others in just my last 20 fights (just went though my wins which isnt many - lol) -- i understand what you mean but also i think its mainly what is done on the ground -- or maybe how you fight on the ground more then just the takedown itself

 

edited: and on posting fights as examples that what we have to do to get more of an understanding -- examples are everything -- now as for just posting a couple or few examples sorry i only read my own fights so thats all i can post -- others should also post examples though -- con or pro examples either way but it gets more ideas then just saying hey this is a problem

[poraan]

I had today fight against worst layandprayer in game who uses 100% counter takedowns..... and i won it! he got 0 takedowns in whole fight... wich is weird because he has been dominating everybody with counter takedowns including my guy who won him this time.. maybe he forgot to set 100% counter takedowns?

 

http://mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=600130

[Guest]

I had today fight against worst layandprayer in game who uses 100% counter takedowns..... and i won it! he got 0 takedowns in whole fight... wich is weird because he has been dominating everybody with counter takedowns including my guy who won him this time.. maybe he forgot to set 100% counter takedowns?

 

http://mmatycoon.com...php?FTID=600130

 

Nope, I didn't. You just had a good planl. Your fighter landed shots early and almost at will. Congrats.

[shortfuse122829]

We are 6 months in since the engine adjustment, so I thought I'd give my thoughts on the engine now:

1. TD's are way overpowered in the scoring. One TD wins most rounds. Two TD's is a guaranteed round victory most of the time no matter the amount of damage recieved/given or who ends up on top for most of the round.

2. Counter TD's are far too easy to land. I've been getting them pretty consistently with mediocre to competent TD's. I have heard instances of fighters with below mediocre TD's getting them. I know of a fighter with useless TD's landing one. Just due to the fact that a TD wins most rounds, counter TD should be much harder to get than they are.

3. Clinchers are dead. When it is so much easier to get a TD than to get into the clinch these fighters are pretty much irrelevant. A clincher can still give a pure striker some problems, but a grappler really has nothing to fear from a clincher anymore. I'd like to see a % of failed TD attempts end up in the clinch both for realism and game balance.

4. Escapes, elbows and knees are all pretty much useless secondaries. Any fighter that needs escapes to get back to their feet will likely have to sink a lot of points into dgrapple and transitions to stay alive long enough to get to a position where escapes can be used. Clinch is totally nerfed and elbows and knees are still hindered by their clunky slider settings. I'm sure there are instances where these secondaries are still helpful, but personally I'd rather have those points sunk into more relevant secondaries.

5. Dgrapple and strike d are probably the most important secondaries in the game now.

6. Takedown D over wonderful/exceptional level is likely a waste of points. You are getting taken down anyway. It seems to me that having wonderful TD and TDD is far better in avoiding TDs than if you had elite TDD and below mediocre TD's. It also gives you a way to mix in a round stealing TD from time to time.

7. A fighter over 31/32 years of age with any kind of injury history will go down the shitter very quick and there is nothing you can do about it. I still wont choose "never gets injured" but I will take injury history into account when I am planning my fighters career and build. If you have high injuries you need to have high physicals so when they fall apart you can still get a game year or two of competition in.

 

Overall I think the engine change was great and brought a lot more balance to the game. I'd like to see a slight nerf to TD's and counter TD's and have failed TD's end in the clinch around 20% of the time to get a little more balance back into the game. The chance of getting into the clinch needs to be adjusted as well, right now it is just too low to be relevant as a strategy. I didn't like how hard the age/injury degradation seemed to hit. Lots of my fighters' skills got hammered and that wasnt fun at all.

 

I have to agree with pretty much everything you said. On subject 4 about elbows and knees....I have seen a few guys who are really effective w/ them but it seems like they work better at higher weight classes because knees to the body are pretty good at gassing and once you get the energy advantage they seem to land at a higher rate. Not that you can't gas guys at lower weights its just easier to do it at the higher weight classes.

 

The only other thing I would add is I think the way that energy is either lost or recovered could use looked at again. My reason for that is how easy it is to gain an energy advantage by laying on top of guys for 2-3 mins while not landing a lot of GNP shouldn't have the effect on fighters energy that it does.

 

I have seen many instances that happen like this:

 

Fighter A:

 

Elite box

Elite MT

Sens wrestling

Brown belt

 

Fighter B:

 

Exceptional Box

Exceptional MT

Elite wrestling

Black Belt

 

The first round starts and Fighter A comes out landing a pretty high % of his shots. Somewhere between 50-67% where fighter B is maybe 1 for 8 on strikes landed. Fighter B lands a TD and finishes the round on top w/ 2 mins top control and 2 GNP landed.

 

Round 2 starts and suddenly fighter B is landing more strikes than fighter A. Despite such a high rate of success early Fighter A's misses now lead to counter opportunities (due to being behind on energy) and a counter TD happens. FIghter A forces a pretty quick ref stand-up this time (maybe 60-90 sec). Fighter A lands 1 or 2 and then leaves another counter opportunity and another counter TD happens.

 

Usually once it's gone that far you're pretty much outta the fight unless you land a lucky KO

[DeadlyDirk]

I agree with a lot of what JLP has said, especially regarding the clinch.

 

I think the striking engine works pretty well and the ground engine has a hell of lot more detail to it these days, there is far more balance between the standup and ground than there has been before I would say. Even if right now it is perhaps slightly favoured towards ground guys with a decent striking game.

 

While it's been frustrating having decent guys become a little outdated with the changes on the game, i.e. sprawl and brawlers, I think that just really mirrors how real life MMA has changed, if you look at the majority of UFC champions, perhaps excluding Aldo, they are all pretty much as good on the ground as they are standing, Barao, GSP, Weidman, Jones, Velasquez, along with plenty of other top level guys, especially the younger guys who are starting to make waves in the sport.

 

I think the main area that's still a little unbalance and that has perhaps left behind a little is the clinch side of fighting.

 

Obtaining The Clinch:

 

Firstly I agree with JLP, it seems far to hard to end up in a clinch position, especially at the top level of the game, when you compare it to the ease of landing say a takedown or even a big striking combination.

 

You'll often see takedown attempts end up in a clinch position, even if they are unsuccesful in landing the takedown, while I thought this was something that was discussed a while ago, I'm pretty sure it's not in the game, if it is then it happens extremely infrequently.

 

A common example of this happening is when the two fighters are near the cage, and they'll often get backed up against the cage when one of the fighter tries a takedown attempt, and end up clinched against the fence.

 

Elbows/Knees

 

One of my biggest pet hates for sometime is that you cannot throw elbows, without having knees as well, unless you want to soley focus on the head. You can't set an option that would go, "Throw punches and elbows to the head, only throw punches to the body".

 

With all of the points needed to build a fighter now, that means nobody at the higher levels is still putting anything into elbows, , they just aren't a strong enough weapon.

Even knees are quite rare, again because they aren't that effective when you weigh it up against having just dirty boxing and a solid striking and ground game.

 

So I'd like to see the option to have more options how to select the strikes you will be throwing, and perhaps adding a little extra incentive for having elbows and or knees over someone that doesn't Perhaps the landing percentage could be increased a fraction, or even add something that leaves someone who is just trying to break a clinch without any of the elbows or knees skills, vulnerable to eating one from their opponent when they separate.

 

Clinch Position

 

I think the biggest thing I'd like to see is the clinch game being expanded to be more like the ground game. So that perhaps you have to advance you way to a more dominant position, such as getting a body lock, which might not be great for striking but would give you a huge advantage when going for a takedown. A dirty boxer might look to move to a single collar tie clinch, and while it might be relatively easy to escape from and very difficult to score a takedown, you'd be able to do plenty of damage with strikes.

 

I think you could add a few position without getting to crazy and adding in absolutley everything, something like.

 

Over Under/Clinch (Neutral, almost like the current clinch fight engine, with damage of strikes reduced.)

Single Collar Tie (Offence/Defence - Great for dirty boxing, dirty knees and elbows, relatively easy to escape and advance from, hard to land a takedown for either fighter.

Body Lock Clinch (Offence/Defence - Not easy to strike from for either guy, increases chances of takedowns for the offence, while defence has to focus on finding it difficult to escape the clinch but perhaps finding it slightly easier to advance from.)

Muay Thai Clinch (Offence/Defence - Great for all kind of striking from the offence, defence has to focus on advancing or escaping

Back Clinch (Offence/Defence - Hard to strike for either fighter, although the offensive fighter can still do some damage, decent position for takedowns, while being relatively easy to escape or advance for defence.)

 

You wouldn't necessarily need them all but I think having a more detailed clinch position, rather than mainly flavour text, it could bring a whole new style to the clinch game and really add to making all three areas of the fight engine well balanced.

[MMATycoon]

Fighter A:

 

Elite box

Elite MT

Sens wrestling

Brown belt

 

Fighter B:

 

Exceptional Box

Exceptional MT

Elite wrestling

Black Belt

 

The first round starts and Fighter A comes out landing a pretty high % of his shots. Somewhere between 50-67% where fighter B is maybe 1 for 8 on strikes landed. Fighter B lands a TD and finishes the round on top w/ 2 mins top control and 2 GNP landed.

 

Round 2 starts and suddenly fighter B is landing more strikes than fighter A. Despite such a high rate of success early Fighter A's misses now lead to counter opportunities (due to being behind on energy) and a counter TD happens. FIghter A forces a pretty quick ref stand-up this time (maybe 60-90 sec). Fighter A lands 1 or 2 and then leaves another counter opportunity and another counter TD happens.

 

Usually once it's gone that far you're pretty much outta the fight unless you land a lucky KO

 

I don't want this to sound defensive because I'm reading through everything and will make changes where appropriate. However, when I read this example, I think it sounds pretty realistic. Maybe make it take a bit longer, so the fight is more in the balance but I think the general flow of that sounds good.

[MMATycoon]

There are failed TDs that end up in the clinch but I have added a few more now so it happens more often.

 

Regarding different positions in the clinch, that sounds like a good plan but is a massive amount of work so let's see what we can do without doing that first.

 

Right, regarding the clinch knees / elbows being separated, someone gimme the exact slider wording you want adding and I'll get that done by the end of next week.

[Stu_Pidasol]

I think the easiest way to to implement it would be

 

Change the

 

Elbow / Knee slider --> Knees Head / Knees Body

 

Then have

 

Elbows = Yes or No

[JLP]

Just curious if anyone has a fight where a failed TD ended in the clinch that they can link. I can't recall ever seeing one in a fight I read.

[Erik]

Elbow / Knee slider --> Knees Head / Knees Body

 

Could also have MT Knees / MT Elbows and MT Head / MT Body. I also maintain my stance that dirty boxing should include knees to the legs.

[JLP]

There are failed TDs that end up in the clinch but I have added a few more now so it happens more often.

 

Regarding different positions in the clinch, that sounds like a good plan but is a massive amount of work so let's see what we can do without doing that first.

 

Right, regarding the clinch knees / elbows being separated, someone gimme the exact slider wording you want adding and I'll get that done by the end of next week.

 

Fixing the knee/elbow slider issue will help clinch out a little bit. I really think it needs to be much easier to get into the clinch and a little easier to get out as well.

[Stu_Pidasol]

Just curious if anyone has a fight where a failed TD ended in the clinch that they can link. I can't recall ever seeing one in a fight I read.

 

I have never seen it in any fights that I have had either

[Grasman]

It should be hard to get a takedown in the clinch for a top wrestler/BJJ/TD specialist, against a top level clincher with very high TDD.

 

A certain % number of takedown attempts from a top level TD specialist, against a Clinch specialist W/Top TDD "could/should" force a % of clinch separations, rather than a successful TD. This action could/should on the other hand allow the Clincher to land a % of "a few heavy blows or many lighter shots" during those failed/successful TD attempts, even getting cut/rocked in the process, as has been seen in RL fights, depending on whether the Clincher is set to Control or Aggression... The more control the clinchers slider is set to, the heavier the Punches/Elbows/Knees landed fighting off the takedown.

This could result in a successful takedown, but possibly with the added cost of recovery time while on top (by not doing much offensive work), or simply taking a beating while attempting it.

 

Rubbish flavor text example.....

"Shields drops down for a double leg on Condit, taking a knee to the jaw in the process. "Visibly Rocked", Shields goes limp for a second, pops back in and into "auto mode", clasping his hands around Condit's vaist, heaving him up in the air.

Carlos is raining down elbows on his opponents face, getting quickly slammed onto his on his back in the process, smothered and controlled by by a visibly bloodied and shaken Shields.............."

 

Mike has mentioned somewhere, to leave the counter takedowns as they are but enhance escape to standup.

I'm in favor of that, but would also like to see some escape/standups end up in the Clinch,, which happens a lot in RL.

The likelihood of that happening should rise in synch with the clinch ability of the weaker ground fighter...

 

Basically, generally enhance standup and add "standup to clinch".

 

This would add to the variety of possible fight outcome, adding a little weight to the Clinch game, while punishing the aggressive clinchers with easier takedowns and rewarding the control/power clinch slider setting.

 

"Carlos is wriggling all he can and manages to pop back to his feet, while taking a barrage of strikes from Jake.

The fighters end up in the Clinch, where Shields has the double under-hooks........."

 

Maybe you see this as a load of bollocks and maybe it is hard to code, but i still think this would be cool.

[Scooby]

I think the easiest way to to implement it would be

 

Change the

 

Elbow / Knee slider --> Knees Head / Knees Body

 

Then have

 

Elbows = Yes or No

 

excellent idea and its interesting i havent seen any failed TD's resulting in a clinch either

[shortfuse122829]

I don't want this to sound defensive because I'm reading through everything and will make changes where appropriate. However, when I read this example, I think it sounds pretty realistic. Maybe make it take a bit longer, so the fight is more in the balance but I think the general flow of that sounds good.

 

I agree in the sense that the wrestler should maybe start to have a little bit more success on the feet but I think the bigger problem is also that the striker's activity also seems to sorta turn off at the same time. So where he goes from throwing and landing, it a lot of times turns into he throws considerably less and just continues to eat more shots because the wrestler stops missing almost altogether. I am sure that's the striker looking for chances to gain energy back but doesn't get the opportunity because the grappler seems to land at will.

[Mentor]

I think one of the worse things (and overall i think the changes were good) is:

 

1) How easy it is to land a takedown, especially if you are a lighter fighter.

2) How gassed downed fighters get

3) As mentioned how significant TD are to the points (although it could be debated that that is the case in real life)

 

I think that 2 and 3 should depend on how active the guy on top was while on top. It should not be an automatic round simply if you get a takedown and a fighter should not be automatically gassed for being laid on.

 

#4 is what is really bugging me the most though. Especially in the higher weight classes. It seems that the lighter fighters are gods these days. The formula is pretty simple. Create a wrestling machine, make him much lighter than your opponent which will mean you have the speed advantage. Then take him down, gass him and beat the crap out of him. The striker has very little chance of winning unless he can land an early KO. Since the very top guys are from the striking era still, we see these wrestling machines manipulating the importance of weight on speed.

 

I think that heavier fighters need to have a bump in their power or something to compensate this. It does not make sense that the ligher guy has an advantage. Also all the new players coming to the game would be mostly unaware that being underweight is an advnatage! Maybe fighters over 300lbs could get a cap to stop guys from simply gaining weight, but everyone else should be trying the opposite (ie to cut weight).

 

One good idea is to have the suggestion posted here put into the equation. In other words if you are underweight, you will still have a speed advantage, but will lose out on strength, which will mean that your strikes and ability to put the other guy to the ground will also be influenced. Maybe have weaker fighters not landing a takedown getting more of their attempts ending in the clinch instead.

[PBR]

Just curious if anyone has a fight where a failed TD ended in the clinch that they can link. I can't recall ever seeing one in a fight I read.

 

i havent either but i also wonder if it just shows the clinch happening instead of the missed takedown leading to the clinch

[MMATycoon]

i havent either but i also wonder if it just shows the clinch happening instead of the missed takedown leading to the clinch

No it will be clear in the commentary.

[MMATycoon]

#4 is what is really bugging me the most though. Especially in the higher weight classes. It seems that the lighter fighters are gods these days. The formula is pretty simple. Create a wrestling machine, make him much lighter than your opponent which will mean you have the speed advantage. Then take him down, gass him and beat the crap out of him. The striker has very little chance of winning unless he can land an early KO. Since the very top guys are from the striking era still, we see these wrestling machines manipulating the importance of weight on speed.

 

I think that heavier fighters need to have a bump in their power or something to compensate this. It does not make sense that the ligher guy has an advantage. Also all the new players coming to the game would be mostly unaware that being underweight is an advnatage! Maybe fighters over 300lbs could get a cap to stop guys from simply gaining weight, but everyone else should be trying the opposite (ie to cut weight).

 

One good idea is to have the suggestion posted here put into the equation. In other words if you are underweight, you will still have a speed advantage, but will lose out on strength, which will mean that your strikes and ability to put the other guy to the ground will also be influenced. Maybe have weaker fighters not landing a takedown getting more of their attempts ending in the clinch instead.

That's exactly how it works at the moment, including the caps. Obviously it can be more pronounced though, if it needs to be.

[MMATycoon]

Just adding some standups / escapes that end up in the clinch.

[MMATycoon]

It should be hard to get a takedown in the clinch for a top wrestler/BJJ/TD specialist, against a top level clincher with very high TDD.

 

A certain % number of takedown attempts from a top level TD specialist, against a Clinch specialist W/Top TDD "could/should" force a % of clinch separations, rather than a successful TD. This action could/should on the other hand allow the Clincher to land a % of "a few heavy blows or many lighter shots" during those failed/successful TD attempts, even getting cut/rocked in the process, as has been seen in RL fights, depending on whether the Clincher is set to Control or Aggression... The more control the clinchers slider is set to, the heavier the Punches/Elbows/Knees landed fighting off the takedown.

This could result in a successful takedown, but possibly with the added cost of recovery time while on top (by not doing much offensive work), or simply taking a beating while attempting it.

I like this a lot but it's not possible with the way we are set up at the moment. I could be added but would be a fairly big job as it would need a new category of commentary and a new check for clinch moves.

 

 

 

Anyway, regarding standing up into clinch instead of a clean break, what percentage of escapes are you guys thinking? This is a real *duh* moment because I think probably more escapes end up in the clinch than as a clean escape, if the escapee is on the bottom. Maybe 60-40 into the clinch from guard bottom and 40-60 from half guard bottom?

[Stu_Pidasol]

I like Grasman idea as well and agree - Not sure if he was just bringing a new idea to the table or responding the JLP posts about the weaknesses of the clinch game in general.

[soyster89]

Will we also be looking at the gassing issue at HW? Happens way too easy for my taste.

[Erik]

Will we also be looking at the gassing issue at HW? Happens way too easy for my taste.

 

Yeah that'd be nice.. as is HW is a serious crapshoot right now.