Fight Engine Discussion

[edwardsfan]

It appears the biggest reservation about the physical cap is wasted time on existing fighters.

 

If you had to effectively waste 3/6 months or whatever people are saying it is, training a guy's physicals up to crazy levels just to be competitive; wouldn't it have been better if you didn't have to do that? A lower physical cap means you can spend let's say 40% less time training physicals before they're up to standard.

 

"Experienced managers complain how long it takes to rebuild a roster." Again.... seems like less time spent training physicals, which are currently pretty much a redundant entity, is a good thing.

 

As for whether it would bring diversity and the problem regarding the fight engine being a "race to tire the opponent out"... I'd imagine most people will look to max out their cardio. That's going to leave holes somewhere. Whether that means a "best build" for physicals in terms of each fighters type, I don't think really matters. What it does mean is that there's actually a point to physicals. I doubt anyone's actually thought for more than about 10 seconds about physicals for years - they just train them all up and be done with it. Now there's an actual point to their existence.

Mike I think you made some really good points here.

 

Ppl should be cheering that time spent on physicals will be shortened...Hell, lower the cap to 70. A year from now we'll all be thankful for it.

 

The ppl complaining about having fighters ruined are being selfish. They are just protecting their current fighters. But for the long term good of the game they know the right choice.

 

"Democracy is nothing more than mob rule"

 

#MikeManUp

 

This game is still small. Better off to get the shitty fixes out of the way now while there's only 10,000 managers vs later on when there's 100,000

[Guest]

Test the changes on the island see how it pans out imo before integrating into the main part.

 

Good thought, but since not a lot of training goes on with Island fighters I'm not sure how good of a gauge that would be.

[edwardsfan]

Why not just let ppl take the points being taken from physicals and put them on the secondaries and primaries?

 

If those extra points would put them over the overall cap then there's no problem. The worst they could be at that point is equal

[JLP]

As usual, there is a lot of hyperventilating over nothing. All the developed fighters are going to be in the same boat when they get their physicals cut. In reality its going to be pretty easy to reallocate your physicals points. We have CT coaches that can train individual CT skills. We have cardio and strength training. All you have to do is use the individual classes you want to have high physicals in while neglecting general ct and the other physicals you want to take from.

[markyosullivan]

Also to make it easier to follow, I'd like to see Mike update the opening post with a summary of what he's planning to do so people can keep a track on that post instead of having to try and find his posts throughout this massive thread.

[762x39]

Why not just let ppl take the points being taken from physicals and put them on the secondaries and primaries?

 

If those extra points would put them over the overall cap then there's no problem. The worst they could be at that point is equal

I still don't like the idea of cutting physicals but if it is going to happen this would be nice. That would let the guys that have projects and been training lots of CT and less secondary skills the chance to keep the skill points they have built and just move them.

[markyosullivan]

Wow, Dinooo's account has been deleted. Shame to see him leave, he had a great understanding of the fight engine. I wont be surprised if a couple follow him in leaving tbh.

[JLP]

 

 

I don't know if I'd previously said 70% or someone else did but how I've been programming it so far was to cut it to the same level as the overall cap, which is ~78% anyway. Obviously as a fighter gets older and has more fights an injuries, that cap decreases and the plan was to decrease physicals more than the other skills. (That would mean an increase on the cap for primaries and secondaries over what it is now).

This is fantastic and pretty realistic. It mirrors real life a great deal. As a fighter gets older he still will learn new skills, but will have a decrease in physical ability to offset it.

Well done Mike.

[762x39]

This is fantastic and pretty realistic. It mirrors real life a great deal. As a fighter gets older he still will learn new skills, but will have a decrease in physical ability to offset it.

Well done Mike.

I agree if these changes are going to happen that is a good idea to go with it.

[JLP]

Wow, Dinooo's account has been deleted. Shame to see him leave, he had a great understanding of the fight engine. I wont be surprised if a couple follow him in leaving tbh.

He's rage quit about 6 other times before. He'll probably be back eventually.

If other people leave, they'll likely be managers like dino who only like to play when the deck is stacked in their favor. He wrongly sees his fighter advantage dissipating and flees because he doesnt want to have to relearn the new engine with out LT or shortfuse giving him info. He really cant complain about time investment because none of the fighters he created were ever really good, just the FA's he poached excelled.

[JLP]

I agree if these changes are going to happen that is a good idea to go with it.

I'm very excited, we are slowly going from an arcade style (everyone is elite in everything) text based game to a true sim. I wish mike had pulled the trigger on this a few years back when it was first discussed, but better late than never,

[KingEpicity]

I will adapt and change with whatever changes are made to the game but I do think there are valid concerns.

 

Mainly my only real concern is what about the younger fighters who were trained physicals up to elite earlier than normal while others in their ID range haven't. The are going to be at a severe disadvantage when others specialize the build. It also means every single fighter who has elite physicals is going to be useless in 6 months when the next crop of projects train their physicals up and don't have remarkable cardio.

 

I don't see why that issue is simply being overlooked.

[JLP]

I will adapt and change with whatever changes are made to the game but I do think there are valid concerns.

 

Mainly my only real concern is what about the younger fighters who were trained physicals up to elite earlier than normal while others in their ID range haven't. The are going to be at a severe disadvantage when others specialize the build. It also means every single fighter who has elite physicals is going to be useless in 6 months when the next crop of projects train their physicals up and don't have remarkable cardio.

 

I don't see why that issue is simply being overlooked.

In my opinion that statement isnt going to be true at all. We dont know that just having elite cardio will be the way to go. Its entirely plausible that you can make a guy with low cardio and high physicals elsewhere would be able to tool the cardio guy so much in the first 5-10 minutes that cardio guy will already be spent. As fuse says all the time, this game is about energy management. That can involve taking your opponents energy away just as much as it does conserving your own. Having super high cardio may not be the ideal way to go and it might even be the wrong way.

 

If you want super high cardio, and thats your main concern you should have no problem spamming cardio sessions and getting it back up to near elite levels in 6 months.

[edwardsfan]

JLP you're a good thinker.

[MichioKaku]

As usual, there is a lot of hyperventilating over nothing. All the developed fighters are going to be in the same boat when they get their physicals cut. In reality its going to be pretty easy to reallocate your physicals points. We have CT coaches that can train individual CT skills. We have cardio and strength training. All you have to do is use the individual classes you want to have high physicals in while neglecting general ct and the other physicals you want to take from.

I am new but interested in this so I can know much I should train physicals now as I am starting 18YO's for long term commitments.

 

As to the post above, I am not trying to step on toes as I know my place as a n00b but the complaint about the new 70-78-80(seen a lot of numbers) and wasting 3-4 months of training per fighter that I have read. Wouldn't having to retrain a trained fighter as suggested waste even more time? Wouldn't letting you long time vets with fighters max/near max be able to allocate them how they please from the start of implementation so they aren't wasting more time training? A one time screen to reallocate points when you click on the fighters page the first time(and put a time limit on it, say 20-30 days). I have seen such things in other games when characters are revamped and I feel it would be fair to everyone if the decrease is brought in which I am not for or against since I don't have a stake in the game yet.

 

Again not trying to step on toes. JLP, I am sure you could destroy my future in the game if you wanted as well as anyone else who doesn't like my opinion:) It wasn't personal, just an outside observation of an interested party.

[JLP]

I am new but interested in this so I can know much I should train physicals now as I am starting 18YO's for long term commitments.

 

As to the post above, I am not trying to step on toes as I know my place as a n00b but the complaint about the new 70-78-80(seen a lot of numbers) and wasting 3-4 months of training per fighter that I have read. Wouldn't having to retrain a trained fighter as suggested waste even more time? Wouldn't letting you long time vets with fighters max/near max be able to allocate them how they please from the start of implementation so they aren't wasting more time training? A one time screen to reallocate points when you click on the fighters page the first time(and put a time limit on it, say 20-30 days). I have seen such things in other games when characters are revamped and I feel it would be fair to everyone if the decrease is brought in which I am not for or against since I don't have a stake in the game yet.

 

Again not trying to step on toes. JLP, I am sure you could destroy my future in the game if you wanted as well as anyone else who doesn't like my opinion:) It wasn't personal, just an outside observation of an interested party.

If mike felt that was something he wanted to do, then I'm sure he could do it. Its not my call and im not opposed to it. Complaining about wasting time is really rather narrow minded. Everyone is in the same boat on this one. Actually, I bet there is no one that this is going to hurt more than me, I get most of my fighters to the elite ++ territory across the board in physicals. To do that, you need to start early. So Im going to get hammered on about 3-4 projects im working on.

[MMATycoon]

In terms of these open threads vs some closed thread with a few members. I think these are far superior. I can happily weight people's opinions in my head based on their level of expertise and whether I think they are being sensible / knee jerk / self serving etc. Dinooo as an example, had absolutely no interest in what was better for the game - he was just pissed off about one fighter. That's not the sort of opinion to give special status and a closed group is always going to miss certain things.

 

In terms of whether those worries are of any value... I'm not destroying people's fighters and forcing people to "redo their rosters", I'm "forcing" people to train some cardio sessions. Annoying for a few fighters, yep. But it significantly improves the game overall in several ways.

 

 

I wanna emphasise, I get it when people are annoyed. However, people have to be pragmatic and actually think about stuff not just panic and assume the worst. "Test it on the island" got +4 votes, as far as I can see just because it was a "woah there horsey" kinda of post, trying to slow things down... Nobody on the island has elite physicals. The island is already "testing" what fights look like with lower physicals and has been for its entire existence. When people tell me I don't think things through, then a post like that gets a load of thumbs up, it makes it hard to take some of the criticism seriously.

[Guest]

So when is this going to happen? I need to plan my no contests accordingly.

[MMATycoon]

One thing i thought of regarding people who feel they've lost training time. We're hopefully going to swap over to system where you train slower as the number of sessions trained increases rather than the current system where you train slower as you age. I can store the amount of points people lose from this change and can adjust down their number of sessions trained.

[MMATycoon]

So when is this going to happen? I need to plan my no contests accordingly.

 

I dunno... I'm struggling to fix some bugs with it. I'll give warning.

 

If people are worried about it fucking up fights, it would be possible to only change fighters who haven't got a fight booked, then change everyone over as and when they have their next booked fight.

[edwardsfan]

I thought we were doing a total reallocation anyway? Something with primaries counting 1.375 or some shit like that?

[ArtieBanks]

In terms of these open threads vs some closed thread with a few members. I think these are far superior. I can happily weight people's opinions in my head based on their level of expertise and whether I think they are being sensible / knee jerk / self serving etc. Dinooo as an example, had absolutely no interest in what was better for the game - he was just pissed off about one fighter. That's not the sort of opinion to give special status and a closed group is always going to miss certain things.

 

To anyone who reads this and believes that I quit over one fighter, please consider this. I had a roster of 18 fighters with 8-10 fighters either fighting or ready to fight. Why would I complain about just one fighter? What Mike posted was complete bullshit and anyone in the Skype group can testify that it wasn’t one fighter I was pissed about. I wasn’t even planning to post but someone I know sent this to me and I felt like I should give my side of this story since Mike is clearly trying to paint me as a petty kid.

 

I messaged Mike with a knee jerk reaction at first, wanting my account deleted about a week ago, we went back and forth in PM’s in which I was trying to explain things to him and basically my last message before asking him to delete my account from the server was the post I made in this thread. After the response, mostly positive about what I wrote I thought to myself that Mike might actually listen. Duphus and Shortfuse also both posted up very good ideas but the overall thinking was capping the physicals was a bad idea, there was other ways to go about things.

 

Mikes post earlier about him going ahead with them while glossing over everything that Duphus, Shortfuse and myself said was the straw that broke the proverbial camel’s back. It is clear Mike does not listen. He didn’t even address the fact that the orgs have been broken for the past 4 years and he hasn’t fixed it. Mike hadn’t even thought of the weight cutting thing, can you imagine he implemented that and the next day fighters all over the place were missing weight in events etc and others losing fights because of it? People would have went bat shit. It is a horribly thought out idea and it wasn’t even a good idea to begin with.

There is already a cap in place for overall skills, so people can if they want choose to have lower physicals, but they don’t. This will be the same thing all over again, there will be a certain sweep spot for physicals and people will use that and nothing else. If you want any evidence of that, look at MMA Tycoon history over the past 5/6 years and you will see that certain builds dominate during certain eras. Right now you have a decent mix of fighters at the top with a whole range of skills. I liked this, and I still think Mike is trying to fix something that isn’t broken.

 

Now what I proposed, was it self-serving? Yes, no doubt about it, I didn’t want my fighters wasted. Judging by the positive feedback on my post that there were a few people who also agreed with me, there were more pluses on my post than Mikes ones about the actual changes. The other thing I will say is that while this may have been self-serving for me. What does that say about the people who wanted changes? Are you sure they aren’t self-serving their own interests? Looking at some of their fighters I’d be inclined to think that they are. Mike created a fantastic game, and all the credit to him for doing so, but please do not lie about why someone left the game. I left because I was not going to have to go through training all my guys who were ready to fight to have their physicals sitting a certain way after already sitting them for 6/9 months waiting for them to get there in the first place.

 

TL;DR – I didn’t quit over one fighter, Mike is lying about that. This isn’t a knee jerk reaction. I hope everyone enjoys the game, and good health and luck to all. Adios.

[edwardsfan]

 

To anyone who reads this and believes that I quit over one fighter, please consider this. I had a roster of 18 fighters with 8-10 fighters either fighting or ready to fight. Why would I complain about just one fighter? What Mike posted was complete bullshit and anyone in the Skype group can testify that it wasnt one fighter I was pissed about. I wasnt even planning to post but someone I know sent this to me and I felt like I should give my side of this story since Mike is clearly trying to paint me as a petty kid.

 

I messaged Mike with a knee jerk reaction at first, wanting my account deleted about a week ago, we went back and forth in PMs in which I was trying to explain things to him and basically my last message before asking him to delete my account from the server was the post I made in this thread. After the response, mostly positive about what I wrote I thought to myself that Mike might actually listen. Duphus and Shortfuse also both posted up very good ideas but the overall thinking was capping the physicals was a bad idea, there was other ways to go about things.

 

Mikes post earlier about him going ahead with them while glossing over everything that Duphus, Shortfuse and myself said was the straw that broke the proverbial camels back. It is clear Mike does not listen. He didnt even address the fact that the orgs have been broken for the past 4 years and he hasnt fixed it. Mike hadnt even thought of the weight cutting thing, can you imagine he implemented that and the next day fighters all over the place were missing weight in events etc and others losing fights because of it? People would have went bat shit. It is a horribly thought out idea and it wasnt even a good idea to begin with.

There is already a cap in place for overall skills, so people can if they want choose to have lower physicals, but they dont. This will be the same thing all over again, there will be a certain sweep spot for physicals and people will use that and nothing else. If you want any evidence of that, look at MMA Tycoon history over the past 5/6 years and you will see that certain builds dominate during certain eras. Right now you have a decent mix of fighters at the top with a whole range of skills. I liked this, and I still think Mike is trying to fix something that isnt broken.

 

Now what I proposed, was it self-serving? Yes, no doubt about it, I didnt want my fighters wasted. Judging by the positive feedback on my post that there were a few people who also agreed with me, there were more pluses on my post than Mikes ones about the actual changes. The other thing I will say is that while this may have been self-serving for me. What does that say about the people who wanted changes? Are you sure they arent self-serving their own interests? Looking at some of their fighters Id be inclined to think that they are. Mike created a fantastic game, and all the credit to him for doing so, but please do not lie about why someone left the game. I left because I was not going to have to go through training all my guys who were ready to fight to have their physicals sitting a certain way after already sitting them for 6/9 months waiting for them to get there in the first place.

 

TL;DR I didnt quit over one fighter, Mike is lying about that. This isnt a knee jerk reaction. I hope everyone enjoys the game, and good health and luck to all. Adios.

Eh, you'll regret quitting. Takes fuck all amount of time to create new fighters. I quit in '12 thinking it would be a fun challenge to rebuild. I was wrong. It wasn't fun just setting and waiting and waiting and waiting....It's the one major flaw to this game. When you create your own fighters you wait idle for a long time. It's really a thinkless process.

 

That being said, lowering the cap on physicals is a great idea. It WILL create advantages and disadvantages in fighters. And it WILL cut down on the excessive amount of training time required for new fighters. Any argument against it is wrong.

 

The game has years of data now to see that fighters are not turning out to be accurate. Nobody in the real world has physical skills and technical skills equaling what fighters in this game have. And even if one or two elite fighters in the real world did. In mma tycoon EVERY fighter is skilled that way. It's silliness.

[Erik]

On the topic of caps, and seeing as I know Mike is reading this topic, I have a question...

 

 

Are you ever going to do anything about the situation where fighters are gaining points in skills they've never used or trained in as a secondary effect from sparring?

 

For example, I have a fighter who was created with no skills in Elbows, has never trained Elbows, has never actually landed one in a fight, and yet has somehow developed skills in Elbows from sparring Muay Thai (presumably from being hit in the head with them?) which now count against his potential skill cap and seemingly will never go down while skills he actually uses will drop off, meaning he actually gets worse instead of better.

[duphus]

On the topic of caps, and seeing as I know Mike is reading this topic, I have a question...

 

 

Are you ever going to do anything about the situation where fighters are gaining points in skills they've never used or trained in as a secondary effect from sparring?

 

For example, I have a fighter who was created with no skills in Elbows, has never trained Elbows, has never actually landed one in a fight, and yet has somehow developed skills in Elbows from sparring Muay Thai (presumably from being hit in the head with them?) which now count against his potential skill cap and seemingly will never go down while skills he actually uses will drop off, meaning he actually gets worse instead of better.

 

As annoying as that is, IMO it needs to stay for this reason:

 

If it didn't guys would just spar every prime to elite. Are you really elite/red in BJJ if you have useless-- subs and same goes for M/T with elbows and knee's and wrestling with TD's and GnP. Allowing it to not gain those would just allow everyone to sparr and be quad elite and just be a striker with elite punch's, kicks, clinch, SD, TDD, grab D, and trans. How is a grappler going to do anything offensive when he has to use up offensive points on the ground but the opponent gets the same prime and defensive value as someone that is actually elite in all associated area's of the prime.

 

I'd like not gaining those skills either but for the better of the game it needs to stay. To me the only argument could be to allow clinch to not add to elbows and knee's as it's the only secondary that trains another secondary. This in it's self makes starting with clinch 110 at creation a must, otherwise you add unnecessary points in elbow's and knee's you may not want. Anyone that is half competent in the game knows under the cap system you must start with clinch or you are wasting points. There is also one build that also allows less accumulation of unwanted points, that most of the good managers know thus the reason you see so many of the same builds now. It's a function of the skill cap and how sparr training works.

 

If you did away with the training the prime would solve so many problems it's not funny. Your prime should be a total of you associated secondaries in the prime.

 

Also erik, most of this wasn't directed at you. I just wanted to explain some things that others may not know but I clearly understand why many would want to do the same thing, but its bad for the overall good of the game to do so.