DougSupreme Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 just so you know, i HAVE been creating my guys evened out. you guys need to quit making that argument, because it's not right. the games not set up correctly for evened out fighters. it's a contradiction and without typing out a page to explain it in detail, i'll keep it short. mike you can look at my tycoon assistant if you like to verify that im not making it up. the object of the changes was to promote evened out fighters so that you could fight directly after creation well, you cant do that. because in order to fight out of the gate you've got to train strength and cardio up as you go. rather than spamming it like normal. well, that's a failing strategy. here's why i train in public gyms. public gyms are suppose to hang their hat on sparring. so i spar 6 times a week. that leaves 6 other sessions open. so i train 1 time a week cardio, and 1 time a week for strength. so that only leaves 4 other oppurtunities to train 11 different skills. so just stopping right there, how is a fighter suppose to make any progress? he either leaves gaping holes......or just as an example, tries to train a little of everything and trains punches on january 1st, and then trains punches again on february 3rd. --- you see, there's just not enough training oppurtunities under the current system. i've tried to say that a few times before. but it goes unnoticed. that's why the old system flourished. you could train skills consecutively and it made things **SEEM** faster. just because you could see marked improvement over a shorter time frame. just as an example: if you train something 6 times in a week or 6 times in a month and they both offer the same amount of results, which do you think will ***SEEM*** faster? the 6 times in a week of course. because you can actually see the improvement bottom line - come up with a way to allow consecutive training again and the problem will be solved just a follow up point i think the issue is that there's no sign of improvement *in between fights*. that's one of my biggest aggrevations right now. im okay with losing a fight. that happens. but what sucks is when you: lose a fight drop down the rankings beat a guy move up the rankings then lose again because you're fighters skills havent progressed essentially you're just stuck for months where you cant go up or down --- i mean what are you suppose to do? how can you justify moving up in competition if your skills arent moving up with you? how can you justify playing a game where you dont see any progression? why do you think you can't train skills consecutively? I do it all the time with my new fighters. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 why do you think you can't train skills consecutively? I do it all the time with my new fighters. oh i dont know haha? i just always have. i'll give it a try consecutive again. it may fix my frustrations. it's worth a shot anyways. thanks haha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBR Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 oh i dont know haha? i just always have. i'll give it a try consecutive again. it may fix my frustrations. it's worth a shot anyways. thanks haha yea you can train with coaches back to back or spam train all you want -- only thing that give negative results or less gain going back to back is sparring. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jory Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 I've been starting my new guys evened out as well. It's a little faster but not enough to compensate for just how slow it really is overall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warwynd Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 I haven't posted in here up until this point because basically the points have been made for both sides, but it is starting to get a bit heated and I really think it's time. I am a relative noob compared to most of the people who post in here, but I am perfectly fine with fighting in the mid or lowerer tier orgs for the time being and working my way up. That said I think that, training times could be sped up just a bit because as Edwardsfan has said that it can be a bit painful to fight and win only to be faced with tougher opposition while your set of skills has moved less then the polar ice caps have in the time it took to write this. OK so that is a bit of an exaggeration, but you get my point. I completely fail to grasp how accelerating the game year from 12 eeks to ANYTHING less then that can possibly be a good thing. It just means less training time per year then there is now and that means even less progress for you fighter. Mike would have to crank the training speed up to preposterous levels to balance that out. I don't think that a single training session should take me from Useless -- to Competent ++. Agains exaggeration, but.... I don't feel I should ever have the thought in my head of, "God damnit! I have been playing for 5 months now, why don't my stats look like Golden Glory's or Jeremy Tonal's?" There are always going to be fighters at the top of the game when you are first starting out that you can admire like you do your real life favorite figters but to dream of facing them in the ring/cage is totally unrealistic. I do think that maybe (maybe) the decline might not be happenning fast enough, but cannot be certain. PBR and one of the other guys (Mr. Clean?) have stated that it is getting increasingly difficult to maintain their older fighters. This is good. Perhaps like many other things in the game a slight tweak is needed here, to make that decline happen faster. I think that about sums up my thoughts on this. I love this game and will be around for a very long time. Speeding up the game year to 8 weeks instead of 12 will SUCK for me though, and I have a lot of time on my hands to do this game. It would suck to be the rest of you guys who work outside the home or who don't have the ability to get on tycoon from work. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 I don't understand the "problem" the OP is about. Edwardsfan has restarted and six months in he is ranked around 1000. That's about exactly where I was after six months when I began just over a year ago. His fighters don't look any different to the ones I had, with the exception that I had picked up 2 free agents. If everyone thinks there should be changes to training speeds again then I won't complain either way, but please do not accelerate the game year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 I don't understand the "problem" the OP is about. Edwardsfan has restarted and six months in he is ranked around 1000. That's about exactly where I was after six months when I began just over a year ago. His fighters don't look any different to the ones I had, with the exception that I had picked up 2 free agents. If everyone thinks there should be changes to training speeds again then I won't complain either way, but please do not accelerate the game year. i spar 6 times a week. the majority of my guys have trained their primaries 25-40 times. they are strong at best. their secondaries are at proficient at best and that's with having several useless ones mixed in. imagine if i wanted to build complete fighters? would they be at mediocre? competent? do you think that a fighter that's been training for 6 months should only have competent skills? or hell, even proficient? im sorry man, but i disagree with you completely let me give you some statistics on my fighters. take an honest look and tell me what you think: hondo barracks - my fastest learner boxing - 30 sessions - strong -- muay thai - 19 sessions - competent - wrestling - 26 sessions - exceptional -- (started at wonderful) bjj - 39 - strong -- cliff harris - my 2nd fastest learner boxing - 44 - strong + muay thai - 13 - mediocre ++ wrestlin - 35 - remarkable -- bjj - 22 - superb -- Cantrell Willis boxing - 28 - respectable + thai - 13 - mediocre ++ wrestling - 27 - superb -- bjj - 23 - superb + Blue Herpumter boxing - 16 - respectable + thai - 7 - competent -- wrestling - 29 - strong -- bjj - 32 - proficient ++ Goddurn Mess (faster learner) boxing - 20 - proficient - thai - 0 mediocre - wrestling - 33 - strong + bjj - 38 - strong ++ Troy Stompkick boxing - 20 - respectable - thai - 5 mediocre ++ wrestling - 26 - respectable - bjj - 41 - proficient - Fanglo Toxenbright boxing - 40 - competent ++ Fanglo Toxenbright started out as a woeful boxer. now how can you tell me tha after 40 sessions of boxing sparring that he should only be at competent? seriously? that's what pisses me off about it. he's a good fighter. but just look at his last opponents My link skills. now how are you suppose to compete with that? that fighter is a 22 year old fighter. or in other words he's had 6 months more training time. so your telling me that my fighter is suppose to be on the same level as that guy after six more months of traininig? so you're telling me that i can expect him to go from competent ++ boxing to sensational over the next 6 months? lol i hope your right! but you're not. because the first 6 months of his life i trained him 40 times in boxing and he's only managed to get up to competent. so if you cant see the glaring problem there then you're in denial. im sorry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 Fanglo Toxenbright boxing - 40 - competent ++ Fanglo Toxenbright started out as a woeful boxer. now how can you tell me tha after 40 sessions of boxing sparring that he should only be at competent? seriously? that's what pisses me off about it. he's a good fighter. but just look at his last opponents My link skills. now how are you suppose to compete with that? that fighter is a 22 year old fighter. or in other words he's had 6 months more training time. so your telling me that my fighter is suppose to be on the same level as that guy after six more months of traininig? so you're telling me that i can expect him to go from competent ++ boxing to sensational over the next 6 months? lol i hope your right! but you're not. because the first 6 months of his life i trained him 40 times in boxing and he's only managed to get up to competent. so if you cant see the glaring problem there then you're in denial. im sorry If you are talking about fighting against sensational fighters belonging to older managers then you are mistaken if you believe that those of us who started a year ago do not face the same problem. I'm not denying that it's hard to overcome ID advantage, but this is nothing new. You said that you are seeing it from the point of view of a noob, but I believe you are still seeing it from the vet perspective if you expect to have fighters to compare with the example you gave (Moses Kealekapuna) within a year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 If you are talking about fighting against sensational fighters belonging to older managers then you are mistaken if you believe that those of us who started a year ago do not face the same problem. I'm not denying that it's hard to overcome ID advantage, but this is nothing new. You said that you are seeing it from the point of view of a noob, but I believe you are still seeing it from the vet perspective if you expect to have fighters to compare with the example you gave (Moses Kealekapuna) within a year. im making that comparison as a direct illustration to show the difference between training speed now and training speed then. my fighter has 40 sessions under his belt. yet not even close in comparison to a fighter trained before the changes. it's very clear that fighters created after the changes will ALWAYS be overshadowed by the ones before the changes. Moses Kealekapuna is 22 years old. so he's going to be in this game for A LOOONG DAMN TIME. so what are newly created fighters suppose to do? just always avoid fighters like that for the next 4 years real life time? basically...forever? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 im making that comparison as a direct illustration to show the difference between training speed now and training speed then. my fighter has 40 sessions under his belt. yet not even close in comparison to a fighter trained before the changes. it's very clear that fighters created after the changes will ALWAYS be overshadowed by the ones before the changes. Moses Kealekapuna is 22 years old. so he's going to be in this game for A LOOONG DAMN TIME. so what are newly created fighters suppose to do? just always avoid fighters like that for the next 4 years real life time? basically...forever? Isn't (according to Mike) the slow early learning in primes/secondaries supposed to be compensated by faster learning at Proficient onwards and finally evened out by the tickers at maturity? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 Isn't (according to Mike) the slow early learning in primes/secondaries supposed to be compensated by faster learning at Proficient onwards and finally evened out by the tickers at maturity? are the tickers doing that? as far as faster learning from proficient on - i hope your right man. i hope your right Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Showdown Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 I think Mike meant faster learning than what it was. It was sped up from what it was before at those levels. But not faster than when they are lower. He changed early learning to be a little slower than BEFORE, and changed later learning to be a little faster than BEFORE. At least that's what I took it as. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 Maybe he did but I doubt that's true for 1 on 1 coaching. For any session size below that I guess training of high skills is faster than before though. Important to note is that while it has been said otherwise spreading skills early is not a good idea long term at all. If some did start with skills spread out the impression of learning being slower now will be amplified a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warwynd Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 I don't know what you are talking about with that aspect. I also right around the 6 month mark in this game and havea similar amount of training sessions for my fighters, and my physicals are all in the Proficient to wonderful range and in hindsight I did things wrong when I started out. If was was just now starting out then I would have some guys that had exceptional physicals, secondaries and even maybe one Primary at exceptional for each fighter. Are there holes? yes. Will there be holes for a while yet? Yes. Will I ever be ready to take on, Jeremy Tonal, Opa Jokinen, or any other current top ten P4P fighter? Hell no! Does that bother me? Nope. Why? Because that is just the way it is. Nobody just starting should expect to ever be ready to face the very best in the sport within two years (game time or real time depending on if you are talking about a real fighter or one in here). But you go and fight and gain (or not) titles in smaller orgs and work your way up from there. Eventually there are going to be guys complaining about the HUGE advantage that 150K ID fighters have over their 190K fighters. I'm OK with that. That is the nature of life and this game. Some people will take these 150K ID guys and actually be able to challenge some of the top guys eventually. When decline starts to make the mighty slip from their lofty heights. If they don't retire while at the pinnacle of thier careers (which few people do in real life either) then they will starte to get beat up by much newer fighters and they will say good bye to their old friends and put those fighters on a shelf. I don't remember if it was in this thread or another one, but Hell, I am pretty sure I've seen this in multiple places, but I would like to see an option to retire your favorite fighters and still be able to see them and their records, stats and other such details and reminice about the good old days, when Golden Glory was the best fighter in the world, rather then just fired his ass and have some asshat shit all over his legacy by fighting him well past his prime and racking up a bunch of ignoble defeats. I AM one of those new managers and I am just fine with the way this game is for the most part. I think that speeding up training might be needed to some extent, but don't with time dilation any more then it already had been. 12 per game year is a perfect pace. Any faster and it widens the gap even more and THAT it when it will start to get ugly. It will also mean that, as PBR had said, that while I would love to fight every other week, that with energy recovery times and injuries that it just isn't always possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrClean Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 Some good posts Waywynd. Your point is right about the 150 vs 190k id fighters but it IS NOT going to be those numbers becasue of the training changes. That is where the lag is so it definately will be the 130 having an advantage over 160k ids. Ippon, I am confused why you think it makes sense that a guy who used to be #1 and is one of the best managers the game has seen and a manager who just started for the first time would be ranked the same (1000) after playing for 6 months. There is a huge learning curve to this game. Dont you think if you started over that would give you a huge advantage over a new player? There could be other reasons of course, including just plain bad luck for eds and his fighters, but it seems odd to me. Eds, you have sparred 6 days a week since I have known you. You can spar back to back. There is a ratio i cant remember for it but its in the wiki and you not knowing this makes me question your present day game knowledge. I wonder how much homework you have done since the changes especially in comparison to what I know you did for you old account. There is another option for starting new fighters. You create one dimensional stand up fighters and put them into K1 while you work on their ground game......for the next 6 years because you put them at useless for everything else and training at the low end is like training dumb monkeys. Training up the last fighter i made is not fun like my old fighters used to be. I made him an 18 yo for the TUM tourney so he had to be ready to fight ASAP. I figured out how many skills I could get to strong with the number of point alloted, put the leftovers into another skill and went useless for the rest. It just seems REALLY slow to me but maybe I have a slow learner. I created another one last week so i will see how this one goes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 .... ?? i look at your fighters and they look the same as mine? although my primaries are a little better than yours and your secondaries and physicals are obviously better than mine. but that's just preference stuff that could be argued all day long. many ppl would disagree that sparring isnt the most important. where i would argue that it is.....but one thing that is apparent though. your ability to be content is much better than mine. reminds me of 2 sayings "a happy person is content with little" and "the squeaky wheel gets the grease". when i look at fighters like ours, i sir am not happy haha. --- so maybe perhaps i am blinded by being use to the higher level and want to get back and just dont realize it? because while you're satisfied with those stats, i certainly am not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeadlyDirk Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 ?? i look at your fighters and they look the same as mine? although my primaries are a little better than yours and your secondaries and physicals are obviously better than mine. but that's just preference stuff that could be argued all day long. many ppl would disagree that sparring isnt the most important. where i would argue that it is.....but one thing that is apparent though. your ability to be content is much better than mine. reminds me of 2 sayings "a happy person is content with little" and "the squeaky wheel gets the grease". when i look at fighters like ours, i sir am not happy haha. --- so maybe perhaps i am blinded by being use to the higher level and want to get back and just dont realize it? because while you're satisfied with those stats, i certainly am not I think to a degree you are just missing how good your fighters used to be. I've done pretty well in this game since I joined 18 months ago but finding it hard to catch up with the older fighters was an issue then and it is now, but as Warwynd says, that's just the way it is really, you can't expect to be getting into a game like this and be fighting the very best after 6-12 months. Hell after 18 months I still have guys with skills far below I'd like them, people with things like profficient defensive grappling, guys with no MT game, many guys with no ground game etc. Some of your speeds don't even look that bad to be honest, a couple could be slow learners. If you think 40+ is bad, try 82 sessions to get to Strong!! Training really hasn't been slowed done a huge amount, it's always been very slow, at least during my time anyway, I don't see what suddenly makes it a massive problem now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warwynd Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 ?? i look at your fighters and they look the same as mine? although my primaries are a little better than yours and your secondaries and physicals are obviously better than mine. but that's just preference stuff that could be argued all day long. many ppl would disagree that sparring isnt the most important. where i would argue that it is.....but one thing that is apparent though. your ability to be content is much better than mine. reminds me of 2 sayings "a happy person is content with little" and "the squeaky wheel gets the grease". when i look at fighters like ours, i sir am not happy haha. --- so maybe perhaps i am blinded by being use to the higher level and want to get back and just dont realize it? because while you're satisfied with those stats, i certainly am not Don't get me wrong, Mr. Clean. I totally agree that the 130K monsters are damn near insurmountable for a manager of my calibur and fighters of my fighters dubious quality. What I was saying is that at some point it will be the 150K ID fighters that are looked at as the 'Monsters' Edsfan, I'm not 'content' What I'm saying is that I am still having fun. I never played at the top levels before. I suppose I would +1,000,000,000 your posts also if I was in your shoes. You have made plenty of good points and I agree with you on many of them, including that I think there needs to be an adjustment to learning speeds. I'm not sure how much because I would hate to see the yo-yo effect of OK let's crank it up... ohj shit that was too much, let's turn it way down... Ooops! over correction... etc... Small adjustments are probably in need though, which is something that you seem to agree with. We might not think the exact same number, but then again that is kinda the point of this entire thread. Unless I completely misread your intent. I also agree with you on the issue of advancing in rank but having the same skill set, therefore not being up to the challenge of the new opponents you would face. Which is a factor of the training speed being to slow. I see you point on our fighter builds. To be honest I would probably have taken an approach closer to yours if I had known better how things work when I first started the game. But it is something that I can still remedy with training and so can you. One thing I can say about having high secondaries and physicals and relativeley low Primaries is that it really surprises people when I beat them cause they think I shouldn't have a snowballs chance in Hell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 well like i said, maybe i am just dissapointed because im use to more. but at the same time, i was bitching about fighter creation before i restarted. i made several threads about it in the improvement section before. but maybe it just urks me more now than then because i am in the actual position now. so im even more persistent now...but who knows how it'll turn out. im not gonna keep going on about it forever though. i just want to make one final surge for getting something done in the way of faster creations. if it doesnt fall in my favor then that's just life. no hard feelings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warwynd Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 God damnit! vI just re-read my post and even I think I sounded like a dick in that post! I didn't mean to come off like that. What I was trying to say is that there have been plenty of good posts and suggestions, in here and that maybe you are a bit jaded cause you have walked among the gods and now must dwell among us mere mortals. Hell, I would be the same I suspect. Anyway, it is pretty likely that a speeding up of the training times is probably in order here. Funny how the best of intentions can sometimes be warped beyond intent by the written word over the spoken word. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 God damnit! vI just re-read my post and even I think I sounded like a dick in that post! I didn't mean to come off like that. What I was trying to say is that there have been plenty of good posts and suggestions, in here and that maybe you are a bit jaded cause you have walked among the gods and now must dwell among us mere mortals. Hell, I would be the same I suspect. Anyway, it is pretty likely that a speeding up of the training times is probably in order here. Funny how the best of intentions can sometimes be warped beyond intent by the written word over the spoken word. nah you were well received. i understood what you were saying and meant, and you may very well be right. even though i'd like to think that im capable of putting my own needs aside and being unbiased, it sometimes comes in as instinct to fight for your own self preservation. even unintentionally. so that's why im not in denial of it. because even though im trying not to be biased towards myself. i very well could be. just not on purpose Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goatacre Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 I think Mike meant faster learning than what it was. It was sped up from what it was before at those levels. But not faster than when they are lower. He changed early learning to be a little slower than BEFORE, and changed later learning to be a little faster than BEFORE. At least that's what I took it as. This is exactly how I have interpreted Mike's statements on learning speeds, and so learning will still be quicker at lower levels than at the higher levels, but compared with learning speeds prior to the training changes it will FEEL slower initially (because it has been slowed down) and then FEEL faster at the higher levels (because it was sped up), and that overall the time taken to reach ~exceptional from useless should be exactly the same as it was before the training changes. So the idea of spreading your points around on creation is absolutely directed toward people who want to have their new creations fight straight out of the gate. Given that you can't stick all of your desired skills at proficient right from the start, you will never be able to avoid that slowed down training time at the early levels entirely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goatacre Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 Maybe he did but I doubt that's true for 1 on 1 coaching. For any session size below that I guess training of high skills is faster than before though. Important to note is that while it has been said otherwise spreading skills early is not a good idea long term at all. If some did start with skills spread out the impression of learning being slower now will be amplified a lot. The impression I got from the Wiki was that the learning speed at exceptional-elite levels has been increased (compared with prior to the training changes) regardless of class size. However, because of the way that Mike altered the calculations for 1v2, 1v3, etc training, you will undoubtedly notice it more if you use larger class sizes to train skills that are exceptional or better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 I just think the nerf of 1 on 1 training slowed it down more than the boost at high levels improved it. Maybe it's faster at really high levels but at least before sens I've seen no improvement using 1 on 1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MMATycoon Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 I just think the nerf of 1 on 1 training slowed it down more than the boost at high levels improved it. This is probably the main point when comparing the old and new system. Anyway, some good discussions guys. Good to get all perspectives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.