Top 5 GOAT List (Weight Class)

[JLP]

JLP I was not even talking to you so stop trying to get attention. It is however amusing to see the absurd accusations you have towards Lance.

I dont care if your gamma propaganda was directed towards me or not. If you are going to make up shit about tonal overcoming an engine his manager didnt understand and pretending he had declined when his manager said he didnt then im going to point out how absurd you are. I know english isnt your first language, but LT said in this very thread that those were his sliders. It's insulting to the community as a whole when you launch into one of your ill thought out and long winded "the debate is over lecture" on any subject that is never backed up by any semblance of fact or reason.

[Mentor]

Deamus, on 13 Apr 2014 - 03:28 AM, said:

That first round was real scary, I hate seeing that red sub attempt text pop up and knowing it could be over by the next line. After getting that clinch early second it obviously felt a lot safer, I knew I had a huge advantage there. Big thanks to LT for helping me with the sliders, I doubt Tonal would have survived the first without him.

 

As far as his skills go Tonal isn't quite as good as he was two years ago but he hasn't degraded nearly as much as some people seem to think. The skills he has lost are mostly due to me not paying attention or not seeing what's going on without vip rather than his age. I was way more worried about how the engine suited him than any lack of skills, I'm sure he's still a match for most fighters skillwise.

 

What part of that do you not understand, native English speaker? So he had degraded, just less than people think. I used to talk with Deamus a lot in regards to Tonal and he had told me that his ground skills were seriously less than they used to be, so when Womba was fighting him, he was already an off prime fighter. One thing that nobody can doubt is that his manager was no longer playing the game and there was multiple changes to the game strategy by then, he was acting purely upon the advice given to him and what he remembered from the past.

 

Those are the facts and your opinion is irrelevant.

[JLP]

Deamus, on 13 Apr 2014 - 03:28 AM, said:

 

 

What part of that do you not understand, native English speaker? So he had degraded, just less than people think. I used to talk with Deamus a lot in regards to Tonal and he had told me that his ground skills were seriously less than they used to be, so when Womba was fighting him, he was already an off prime fighter. One thing that nobody can doubt is that his manager was no longer playing the game and there was multiple changes to the game strategy by then, he was acting purely upon the advice given to him and what he remembered from the past.

 

Those are the facts and your opinion is irrelevant.

When you write "seriously less" it contradicts deamus' own words you quoted. "Not as much as some people think" is probably directed at people with your opinion. I doubt anyone takes your word at face value due to your history of lying and cheating anyway. So it's ridiculous that anyone would take your assertion that you were told something in private over what that person verifiably said in public.

 

Your also acting like womba was still prime. He was declining before I beat him with Bennett.

[Steel]

Dunno , I'd say you pair can pretty much interact on a level playing field unless you like throwing stones from your glass house.

[aylib]

Dunno , I'd say you pair can pretty much interact on a level playing field unless you like throwing stones from your glass house.

I would prefer all this personal bickering be taken elsewhere.

[Rambo]

Womba's career started from tapping to strikes, and Tonal's ended with it lol.. what are the odds...

 

 

If you look on paper, Womba looks way better than Tonal. It's really not even close. But if you dig into it, and kind of remember the era of Tonal and who he was fighting, it's closer than it looks.

 

Whoever set Tonal's sliders is completely irrelevant. Fighter resume comes down to wins/losses/streaks/titles/etc. I don't know why Tonal vs Womba became such a debate about sliders and all that nonsense, but I think Womba's actually got more of a body of work at LHW than Tonal, but it's easy to dismiss what Tonal did, when he did it, without digging into details.

 

 

Tonal was #1 longer. Tonal's streak was longer, and Tonal's streak at #1 lasted longer. 24-1 with 5 fights at Heavyweight. Had first million dollar tournament victory. 16 fight win streak.

 

 

Golden Glory
Merrimac Mjolnir

Bubba KillsInWater

 

all legends at HW, 2 out of 3 are on the Top 5 HW's of all time.

 

 

Other noteable wins:

 

Moses Diggs - LHW Champ in the #1 or #2 org in the game.

 

Gristle McThornbody - LHW champ in top 5 org in the game.

 

Jigoro Kane - LHW legend, only loss in his 24-1 streak and he avenged it.

 

Razz Matazz - was a 22-0 MW with elite skills before running into Tonal.

 

Lucas Lavey - LHW Syn champ (top 5 org in game at the time) on 9 fight winning streak. Travis Lucas, Lee Villa, Kenji Silva, Jigoro Kane, Wahoo McDaniel were all considered top LHW fighters and Lavey had beaten them before running into Tonal.

 

---------------

 

Now we get to Womba... career high 11 fight win streak (not including 13 fight win streak vs Sydney competition).

 

During Womba's streak of 20-1, I don't feel like his wins are as... hyped? His most notable wins of his career were against Taj al Din and Matt Murdock. 6 wins vs my fighters. 3 vs the same guy (Moses Diggs) and one of them came when he was auto-flown to Tokyo and came in with a huge energy hit.

 

 

WMK - The fighter who ended Tonal's streak, but not really known for being a top guy.

 

McThornbody - definitely one of the premier fighters at LHW for a long time.

 

Taj al Din - one of the best LHW's to ever grace the game, despite his incompetent stoner managers lack of ability. Even though Womba beat him during Taj's decline, it was a very impressive win. Taj was winning 3 rounds to zero before caving in the 4th.

 

Moses Diggs - a top LHW fighter for a very long time. Would of hit #1 if it weren't for Tonal.

 

AJ Hearts - one of the top LHW fighters in the game at the time. Definitely one of the better grapplers LHW division has ever had.

 

Patrick McWhiskey - was a huge hype train. 23-2 but hadn't really beat any top fighters at the time.

 

Ryo Narushima - another hype train. Most notable victory was getting a lucky KO roll vs Womba in their second fight.

 

 

 

Womba beat a lot of the same opponents during his streak. Moses Diggs x3. Grundy x2. Narushima x3. Grundy and Narushima really aren't that impressive of victories and that accounts for 5 of his 20 wins during his run at the top.

 

 

--------------------

 

 

 

Anyway, if you look back at it, which I literally just did - and before I did this I was leaning towards Womba being the goat, imo, Tonal is the GOAT of LHW. He even came back and beat Womba, which was impressive considering the layoff. Womba is hands down the #2 LHW of all time.

 

 

#1 Tonal

#2 Womba

 

and then it's a matter of opinion and arguments from there. Manu Okoro, Taj al Din, Scotty Bennet, Jin Sen, Kelemi Seia, Sotiris Kakoullis, it's up for debate for sure and I'm probably forgetting a few names that deserve to be on this list.

[Rambo]

This might take me longer than I anticipated lol... the #1 and #2 spots are pretty damn easy to figure out for the most part, but getting down into the top 5 makes it a bit difficult and requires a lot of digging. I could slap something together, but I'd be missing something or somebody who deserves to be there. There's a lot of top guys in their w/c who didn't reach #1 or #2 and they get tougher to find, and it's kind of hard to decipher who had the better career/resume without actually "researching" it and even then the answer is more subjective.

[Rambo]

Alright to make things easier on myself, I'm gonna go through a bunch of names in my division post, not in order, and I'll cipher it later. I didn't realize how timely this shit could get...

 

[Mannetosen]

fukin nerds id shove yall in a locker if i wasnt tired from banging all of the bitches (thats what i call women)

[Slice]

This was such a good thread; how'd it turns into a Bitchfest like this? Maybe the OP should be copied into another thread?

[gwad12345]

fukin nerds id shove yall in a locker if i wasnt tired from banging all of the bitches (thats what i call women)

But what do you call men?

[Mannetosen]

But what do you call men?

finger food

[762x39]

I still think Tonal is best at 205, and a case can be made for best ever P4P. Womba is most likely #2. I think the main reason people say Womba is because he is closer to this time frame and people remember being impressed with what he did. Most people in the game were not around when Tonal was kicking ass in 2009-2012. Those of us that were remember waiting to see if he could or would be beat. He as the shit, everything that was said about Otso applies double for Tonal. My opinion best ever.

[Marky]

Otso the best ever. Opinions, opinions.

[762x39]

Otso the best ever. Opinions, opinions.

He would be my #2 best ever right behind Tonal, I meant Womba #2 at 205.

[Mentor]

To compare you need to have been around for a LONG time. Was Womba the better fight? Possibly he was, but what is important to look into is the hype and interest connected to the fights, as well as the quality of fighters beaten. From all the people above, Karter is the one who points out legitimate arguments because he focuses on the quality of the opponents, plus things such as win streak + time at the top. I think things such as fighter notability/popularity need to be considered as well (this is a rough indicator): http://www.mmatycoon.com/profileviews.php

 

The big difference between now and then is also the lack of cross org fighting. Back then the top orgs would collaborate a lot more actively, so within 2-3 fights a top for the division was determined. From then on the "top world contenders" would pop up and it would automatically lead to a challenge to be considered the "GOAT" of that time. That has not been happening for the past 2-3 years, which means today's fighters are at a significant disadvantage because they often are stuck in their own promotions fighting similar guys over and over.

[MasterLeader]

The name of the Baguette bread comes from the shape it is -- that of a wand or baton...

French people :')

[Rambo]

Biggest stain on Tonal's resume is that it appears he's a product of multi-accounting. Not saying Deamus was in on it but Xavier Stone (10940) released a granite chin fighter that popped KO Power too, and it wasn't due to inactivity. Maybe Mentor remembers if Xavier Stone was deleted for multi-accounting or not but it kinda looks like a Moyses Mattos ordeal.

 

Either way, the fighter Jeremy Tonal was the GOAT of LHW.

 

 

Otso has a good case for the GOAT though. 28-2 and avenged his loss to Danny Power with first round KO and a 19 fight win streak. Granted, he didn't beat the same kind of names or legends that Tonal did, but the streak is definitely better. Not sure if he spent more time at #1 P4P then Tonal, it's doubtful.

[Mentor]

Back then i was recruiting a lot of non VIP managed fighters, i am pretty sure Xavier Stone was simply one of them, however i cannot confirm that. Otso had a very long run at the top spot, however i am not pretty sure it was not as long. I know Tonal's reign was over 7 months, i kept a record of it in my database. Also the division Otso was fighting in was a LOT more shallow in comparison, especially back then. As you mentioned the level of competition was a lot weaker, although i think each fight needs to be looked into individually, it is not impossible that Otso had more top 100 level wins, he did have a lot more fights overall.

 

Note: I just had a look at Otso's career and most certainly there was a big list of top level competition he beat. I think that at the end of the day it will be a similar comparison between Ali and someone like Sugar Ray Robinson. Sugar Ray had a much longer career, so when you are comparing almost 200 fights with 60, the longevity factor always plays a role. Most people would argue though that the impact of Ali (or in our case Tonal) was more significant because of the hype and impact those fights had and the general popularity of the game at the time. Also, as already stated, the run at the top, plus the level of competition while at the top was arguably more significant.

[Marky]

Back then i was recruiting a lot of non VIP managed fighters, i am pretty sure Xavier Stone was simply one of them, however i cannot confirm that. Otso had a very long run at the top spot, however i am not pretty sure it was not as long. I know Tonal's reign was over 7 months, i kept a record of it in my database. Also the division Otso was fighting in was a LOT more shallow in comparison, especially back then. As you mentioned the level of competition was a lot weaker, although i think each fight needs to be looked into individually, it is not impossible that Otso had more top 100 level wins, he did have a lot more fights overall.

 

Note: I just had a look at Otso's career and most certainly there was a big list of top level competition he beat. I think that at the end of the day it will be a similar comparison between Ali and someone like Sugar Ray Robinson. Sugar Ray had a much longer career, so when you are comparing almost 200 fights with 60, the longevity factor always plays a role. Most people would argue though that the impact of Ali (or in our case Tonal) was more significant because of the hype and impact those fights had and the general popularity of the game at the time. Also, as already stated, the run at the top, plus the level of competition while at the top was arguably more significant.

 

Regarding the amount of fights, in my view the lower you go in weight classes the more fights you need to win to get even close to #1 P4P. 205ers generate more KO's and hype to share among themselves than 155. In general lower weight fighters have to fight more lesser hyped guys but that doesn't make those guys crappy fighters, the competition is always there. Tonal could also easily access more hype fights just by visiting HW. Nowadays that kind of thing would be frowned on because a 217lbs guy (who never gets KO'd) could be seen having a speed advantage over a 270lbs guy and arguments about fairness could rise.

[762x39]

 

Regarding the amount of fights, in my view the lower you go in weight classes the more fights you need to win to get even close to #1 P4P. 205ers generate more KO's and hype to share among themselves than 155. In general lower weight fighters have to fight more lesser hyped guys but that doesn't make those guys crappy fighters, the competition is always there. Tonal could also easily access more hype fights just by visiting HW. Nowadays that kind of thing would be frowned on because a 217lbs guy (who never gets KO'd) could be seen having a speed advantage over a 270lbs guy and arguments about fairness could rise.

You have a very good point. That is why it is so hard to pick who is the best fighter ever. You can make a case for about any of the top guys. I think in the end it comes down to how we feel about a fighter more than any logical formula for picking our #1. That is why as you said earlier it is all opinion. Tonal was awesome, so was Otso. But for me, I always looked more forward to reading how Tonal did, I liked to read Otso's fights to, but I didn't stalk him waiting for it like I did Tonal. Guess I am not smart enough to come up with a logical reason, I just go with my feeling. Either way, my opinion is those are my top 2 ever. I have others that are close, some were not ever considered the best ever, for example Raz Matazz was mentioned earlier, I loved reading his fights. No one would ever make a case for him being the best ever or even top 10 best ever, but he is probably my #3 personal favorite behind Tonal and Otso.

 

But that is why I like this topic so much, get a lot of people's opinion and get a little reminder of our old legends.

[JLP]

I agree with what Marky said. Tonal is the one who taught me about the advantages of being the lighter fighter. His most memorable wins were against HW's (Glory, Mjolinir, Killsinwater). Best LHW wins were Diggs, McThornbody, Pendulum, Womba, swagger and Kane. (Kane and Womba both being splits with the win over Kane being an old past his prime Kane with a different manager). Tonal beat a lot of Gamma LHW's too that are just not impressive.

 

I think Womba's era of domination was the actual high point of the game. Empire (later EVO) was easily the UFC of the game at the time, all the top fighters went there. There were many superfights to pit Empire guys against outside fighters. Syn/Ascension/Empire were trading top fighters back and forth all the time. At that point in the game, sliders were figured out, any decent manager had access to private gyms. Gimme fights were few and far between back then.

 

Just my opinion.

[bjornmma1]

It shocking to hear so many names that I have never seen ( read) fights from. Really interesting to see these veterans talk about times long before I even joined.

From the shorter time that I was around, the most elite fighters were in my opinion Donny, Ricky Rocker, Stormcrow, Spider,....
How do these compare to the old-time greats? I don't know.

[Mentor]

It shocking to hear so many names that I have never seen ( read) fights from. Really interesting to see these veterans talk about times long before I even joined.

 

From the shorter time that I was around, the most elite fighters were in my opinion Donny, Ricky Rocker, Stormcrow, Spider,....

How do these compare to the old-time greats? I don't know.

 

I think the biggest problem when comparing is also the fact that there have been so many game changes, it is like comparing potatoes with apples. I mean the fighters of one era were playing with different rules in regards to how sliders worked and certain fighter's careers were totally wrecked by certain tweaks to the game mechanics. This is one of the reasons why i hate these game changes, you build up a fighter to perform under certain rules, then BOOM, the admin decides to change things around and suddenly your fighter is obsolete (or close to it).

 

I would say that Ricky is up there in the top 10, just the fact that he got to the #1 spot 3 times over a period of 2 1/2 years apart has to be worth something. I know Renan St Juste did that as well, he was #1 in 2013 and then repeated it again over 2 years later in 2015, but that is an unusual phenomenon.

[Rocket]

For me it's between the Billy Goat or the Mountain Goat are my top 2 goats.

 

Hard to choose between them